the fallacy of eternal torment and related issues

Soul Searcher said:

The question was, can you sleep at night believing that family, friends, neighbors will suffer for all eternity.

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My parents and sisters are all Born Again. Many of my friends are also. Some are not; however, all I can be is a witness. Worry will not add one foot to my height. Everything is in the hands of GOD. I am concerned for their welfare but pretending no one goes to hell does not make it so. Reality is not always pleasant.

Quote:




Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.





everlasting in this context:

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

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The context of Matthew 25 is not individual salvation (there is no cross, no blood, no faith, no grace, no Jesus there!). It is the judgment of gentile nations entering into the millenium kingdom. They are judged according to their works in light of their treatment of Jews ("the least of My brethren").

Certainly we would never preach as the gospel of grace for this present age the parable of Matthew 25.

Even in that context, I think everlasting punishment could simply mean eternal destruction (i.e. never to rise again). If I said that the Third Reich was eternally punished, I would only mean that it will never rise again.

bleechers quote:

The context of Matthew 25 is not individual salvation (there is no cross, no blood, no faith, no grace, no Jesus there!). It is the judgment of gentile nations entering into the millenium kingdom. They are judged according to their works in light of their treatment of Jews ("the least of My brethren").

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I'm curious, where do you see that?


Mat 25:34 Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and you gave me food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in;
Mat 25:36 I was naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You? Or thirsty, and gave You drink?
Mat 25:38 When did we see You a stranger, and took You in? Or naked, and clothed You?
Mat 25:39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you have done it to Me.
Mat 25:41 Then He also shall say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry, and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me no drink;
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in; I was naked, and you did not clothe Me; I was sick, and in prison, and you did not visit me.
Mat 25:44 Then they will also answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You?
Mat 25:45 Then He shall answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

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Mat 25:31 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory.
Mat 25:32 And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And indeed He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats off the left.

Jesus is talking about the finality of judgement here. Note v.31

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Pilgrim 33 said:

the third reich is now and has been developing into the fourth reich. their master race concept never died, it has been alive and growing all too well ever since pre-world war II by the likes of margaret sanger (founder of "planned parenthood", pronounced "m-a-s-t-e-r--r-a-c-e"). we cabn find them all over the world as neonazis and other revolting names. also, according to a recent History channel special there is far more money available to them as the older ones through modern day investments etc are able to provide legal help to skinheads and others that continue in the old nazi master race ways, etc.

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Yeah, I know... all earthly metaphors fall apart upon closer inspection. The Third Reich was the closest earthly comparison I could find to try and make the literary point. In a way, however, the THIRD Reich cannot rise, it must hence be the FOURTH Reich.

The point was simply the literary use of "for ever" and "eternally punished." I was using the term in the present. If (as an earthly matter) I said that the Third Reich was "eternally punished" I would not mean that somewhere the Third Reich is STILL being punished. I would only mean that it was "destroyed" and has not risen again.

What I can say is that if God "eternally punishes" a nation it shall surely never rise again, but that does not mean that the actual act of pinishment is a continual action.

Hope that helps! Sorry for any confusion.

Mat 25:34 Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and you gave me food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in;
Mat 25:36 I was naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You? Or thirsty, and gave You drink?
Mat 25:38 When did we see You a stranger, and took You in? Or naked, and clothed You?
Mat 25:39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you have done it to Me.
Mat 25:41 Then He also shall say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry, and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me no drink;
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in; I was naked, and you did not clothe Me; I was sick, and in prison, and you did not visit me.
Mat 25:44 Then they will also answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You?
Mat 25:45 Then He shall answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

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v.34 This is for those for whom the kingdom was prepared FROM the foundation of the world. The present church was chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world.

vs. 35-39 ALL WORKS. There is no faith, no cross, no blood, no grace, no Jesus. What do the imprisoned do in this system? Visit themselves?

Vs. 40 Who are Jesus' "brethren"? We only have two choices, His "brethren according to the flesh," the Jews; His brethren by rebirth, the church. The context of Matthew 24-25 is in light of Israel's kingdom.

Ditto for the goats.

Again, do we preach this as the gospel of grace today?

v.34 This is for those for whom the kingdom was prepared FROM the foundation of the world. The present church was chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world.

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yes, both the Jew and Gentile. All mankind before the foundation of the world.

vs. 35-39 ALL WORKS. There is no faith, no cross, no blood, no grace, no Jesus. What do the imprisoned do in this system? Visit themselves?

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It refers to works of kindness, a work, a desire to walk in the paths of righteousness that God ordained man to walk in. Jesus is speaking of the very end times, and all His work is completed. The future.

Vs. 40 Who are Jesus' "brethren"? We only have two choices, His "brethren according to the flesh," the Jews; His brethren by rebirth, the church. The context of Matthew 24-25 is in light of Israel's kingdom.

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His brothers and sisters are those that do the Father's will. By rebirth, being part of the body of Christ Jesus. The context is in the entirety of the Bible. All men.

Again, do we preach this as the gospel of grace today?

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The consequence of sin are already brought up when one speaks to another of the Christ as the propitiation for a man's sins, for those that would believe, and have faith in.

If there are no consequences for sin, then Jesus died in vain.

Also find in the Scriptures when it is the Son of man comes in His Fathers Glory.
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daneel said:

Mat 25:31 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory.
Mat 25:32 And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And indeed He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats off the left.

Jesus is talking about the finality of judgement here. Note v.31

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Just another note: "the nations" are the gentiles. This is a judgment of the gentile "nations" and their treatment of Israel, hence the emphasis on "Works" and on Jesus' "brethren".

This is a reference to the judgment of Joel 3:

For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.


Later on in Joel 3 we see that this judgment is an endtime judgment and a judgment in light of gentile nation treatment of Israel:

The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel... And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim.

Jesus' brethren are the Jews (Judah):

Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

Note the judgment of "nations" and not individuals.

It refers to works of kindness, a work, a desire to walk in the paths of righteousness that God ordained man to walk in. Jesus is speaking of the very end times, and all His work is completed. The future.

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So what do those in prison do? What do we say to the man on his deathbed who cannot do anything? The message in Matthew 25 is clearly not the message we preach. Can I come to your church and preach that if we perform a certain list of kidnesses that we will inherit the kingdom of God? Again, there is no cross, no faith, no blood, no grace, no Jesus. Just nations and their works.

His brothers and sisters are those that do the Father's will. By rebirth, being part of the body of Christ Jesus. The context is in the entirety of the Bible. All men.

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But who are the "brethren"? I agree that His brothers are all those who do the will of the Father (which is to believe on the One whom He has sent), but that is not specified in the parable. The "nations" is a term for Gentiles and He juxtaposed "gentiles" (to whom He said He was never sent) with His "brethren" which are the Jews.

The consequence of sin are already brought up when one speaks to another of the Christ as the propitiation for a man's sins, for those that would believe, and have faith in.

If there are no consequences for sin, then Jesus died in vain.

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But Jesus never mentions faith or propitiation. You are reading the gospel of grace for today into a text that has to do with Israel. The whole passage is in context of Israel.

The consequence of unbelief is no propitiation for sin imputed to us by Adam. The answer to that problem is not listing off a series of good works concerning the poor.

All peoples of the world/nations, specifically faithful believers in Christ Jesus are all part of the same tree, and grafted either in, or cut off. There is only one tree.

The 12 doors of heaven on all sides of the new heaven show that peoples of all nations and shows in several places in the bible how they will come from all directions.

Rev 21:24 And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.

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Is it nations as a whole here who are saved? Or does it refer to peoples of nations?


Mat 12:48 And He answered and said to him who told Him, Who is My mother? And who are My brothers?
Mat 12:49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, Behold, My mother and My brothers!
Mat 12:50 For whoever shall do the will of My Father in Heaven, the same is My brother and sister and mother.

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But who are the "brethren"? I agree that His brothers are all those who do the will of the Father (which is to believe on the One whom He has sent), but that is not specified in the parable. The "nations" is a term for Gentiles and He juxtaposed "gentiles" (to whom He said He was never sent) with His "brethren" which are the Jews.

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The qualifying verse is where He said,

Mat 25:31 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory.

This is the end times. He is speaking of the future event.

But Jesus never mentions faith or propitiation. You are reading the gospel of grace for today into a text that has to do with Israel. The whole passage is in context of Israel.

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So Jesus never mentions faith, or forgiveness, or the kingdom of heaven in any chapter prior to 25? Jesus came to preach forgiveness of sin, through Grace.

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Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and you gave me food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in;

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John Gill:

Mat 25:35 - For I was an hungered and ye gave me meat..... This, and the following, are not mentioned as causes of the kingdom being prepared for them, or of their being entitled to it, or of their being put into the possession of it; but as descriptive of their characters, and as testimonies and evidences of the grace of God in them; by which it appeared, that they were the blessed of his Father, having his special grace vouchsafed unto them; and that they were the children of God, to whom the inheritance of the kingdom belonged, and for whom it was prepared: for what was done by them in time, could never be the cause of what was done for them in eternity, or before, or from the foundation of the world; nor is there any proportion between a kingdom, and such services as here mentioned: and besides, this kingdom is by inheritance, and not, merit; is prepared by God, and not procured by men, and was got ready for them before they had a being; and therefore could not be caused by any actions of theirs: what is here, and in the following instances, said to be done to Christ, is not to be understood of him personally, but mystically, of the members of his body, as he himself explains it, Mat_25:40, and the sense is, that when some of the servants of Christ, ministers, or private Christians, were in distress for want of the necessaries of life, these gracious souls supplied them with food; which to do, especially in a time of persecution, showed not only love to Christ, but great faith in him, and that they were not ashamed of him, and their profession of him, nor of his poor ministers and members; for this was done by them, not as the effect of mere humanity to the poor in general, but as an instance of affection to Christ's poor; and was done for his sake, and because they belonged to him, were preachers of his Gospel, and professors of his name; and therefore was considered as if done to himself personally:

I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; not gall and vinegar, as the Jews did, but a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, prophet, and righteous person, and because belonging to Christ: this is taken notice of with acceptance by him; and such shall not lose the reward of grace....

Mat 25:36 I was naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.

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John Gill:

I was sick, and ye visited me, or "looked after me", or "over me": or, as the Persic version renders it, ye had the care of me; and which is the true sense and import of the word: for it not only intends visits paid to sick persons in a Christian manner, relieving them with their substance, giving good advice, or speaking comfortable words to them; but attending them, and waiting on them, and doing such things for them which, in their weak state, they are not capable of doing for themselves. Visiting of the sick was reckoned, by the Jews, a very worthy action: they speak great things of it, and as what will be highly rewarded hereafter,

I was in prison, and ye came unto me: which has been often the lot of the saints, as it was frequently of the Apostle Paul, who had this respect shown him by many of the people of God, as by the house of Onesiphorus, and by Epaphroditus, who brought him a present from the Philippians, when in bonds; and which will be remembered another day,

Pilgrim quote:

Gill is nice but (esp) so much of the the free stuff out there is so-o-o shallow, not to mention he likes to preach his own version instead of just relying on the facts and letting people make up their own minds.

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As I'd stated in another thread, I just downloade Gill's commentaries today.
My understanding of these particular Scriptures comes from just the study of the bible alone. The bible alone interprets itself when taken in it's entirety and in context.

bleechers quote:

But who are the "brethren"? I agree that His brothers are all those who do the will of the Father (which is to believe on the One whom He has sent), but that is not specified in the parable. The "nations" is a term for Gentiles and He juxtaposed "gentiles" (to whom He said He was never sent) with His "brethren" which are the Jews.

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I also wanted to add that the parable parts of Matt 25 runs from v.1 to v.30.

v.12 ends the first parable. v.13 is a warning. v.14 starts the next parable. v.30 ends the second parable, and v. 31 starts in "real time" language.

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