the fallacy of eternal torment and related issues

Pilgrim 33 · Jun 21, 2005

I am of the impression that the souls of the unsaved are not immortal;
I'm not all that certain, either, that the souls of the saved are immortal either.

We know that at death the corpse returns to dust,
the sentient memories that make up the mind are lost and forgotten,
and the breath of life returns to God.

For a soul, any soul, to be immortal would mean that

God's breath of life would never leave the body
which means the body would never die and
the memories would never be lost or forgotten

I'm recently coming around to the idea that it is improper to speak of the soul apart from meaning the actual live whole person and not as though "the soul" were simply a part of man's being.

Following through on this concept, the question naturally begs, what becomes of the memories of the saved individual upon death? It would seem, imo, that the memories are incorporated into the individual's new spirit born within the individual at the time of their salvation and at the same time as the indwelling of The Holy Spirit.

Soul Searcher · Jun 21, 2005

But what about the verses that say It is Gods will that all men be saved, That Jesus is the saviour of the world. that he will be all in all, that every knee shall bow and every tounge shall swear. That every man shall be judged by fire and even though his work may burn and he suffer loss he himself shall be saved.

I believe the OP is headed in the right direction in seeing the error in eternal torment doctorine but there are more problems with the doctorine than just the eternal torment. The doctorines cling tightly to the believe and gain life eternal don't believe and face eternal damnation but seem to completely disregaurd the numerous places where the scripture indicates that eventually all men will become one with the father and the son.

Remember we are saved by the grace of God not by our own actions, wether we believe or not is irrevelant because that is an action. Jesus is the saviour of the world. As in Adam all shall die [ doesn't matter what they believe all shall die] so in christ all shall be made alive. This clearly applies to the same group as Adam which is all mankind, not just believers.

Judgement however is based on our actions and the fire will reveal the true nature of our works. We will either gain reward or suffer loss, the nature of such is not disclosed in the scripture but it clearly says the man will be saved.

Flynmonkie · Jun 21, 2005

Soul Searcher said:
The doctorines cling tightly to the believe and gain life eternal don't believe and face eternal damnation but seem to completely disregaurd the numerous places where the scripture indicates that eventually all men will become one with the father and the son.

Remember we are saved by the grace of God not by our own actions, wether we believe or not is irrevelant because that is an action.

WHAT???? Don't tell me you are a universalistic? This is a topic for another thread entirely I believe.

Pilgrim 33 · Jun 21, 2005

Soul Searcher said:
Agreed, and let me add that Jesus would not resurect someone for the sole purpose of torturing them. That would be extremely vile and evil thing to do.

Well, if their reward is whatever they managed to "collect" while alive on earth, and since all are already condemned for falling short of the glory of God, and since any charges against them will come from a book at the end time that will be opened...then it is even questionable as to why they would even have to go through a live, conscious and aware state at judgment. Judgment (for the unsaved) would appear perhaps only proper for those alive on earth at the time of judgment. Scripture also tells us that God visits judgment upon people whenever He wants to and this most definitely includes while they are alive all throughout their lives.

Good question, the only mention I know of eternal torment is of the dragon tormented night and day for ever and ever. I have did some reading on this and this may not be correctly translated. for ever and ever makes no sense seeing as how for ever is eternal. The word translated here most likley means age, or eon.

Aion, eon, age, yes, as to the "for ever and ever"; and this eon will end on...

2 Peter 3:10, "...the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

People seem to assume that since the devil will be tormented there for ever and ever that all in the lake will be also but this is just an assumption and IMO a bad one. It truly does not say what effect the lake will have on any man, nor how long they will be there.

Scripture does paint numerous verbal pictures of utter destruction, burnt up to nothingness, just as the 2 Peter 3:10 verse above states.

It is possible that the lake is actually

My own take is that it is the two 2 Peter verses; here's the second:

2 Peter 3:12, "...the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

many people simply transfer hell into the lake of fire and liken the lake to hell as being one and the same.

Sadly, yes; it is most peculiar.

This however seems to ignore the scripture that the dead are no longer in hell at the time this happens.

Didn't that all empty out after Jesus' resurrection/Ascension?

Pilgrim 33 · Jun 21, 2005

Soul Searcher said:
But what about the verses that say It is Gods will that all men be saved,

True, God doesn't want to see any lost; but the choice to accept or refuse Jesus is theirs.

That Jesus is the saviour of the world.

Jesus is the saviour of those that accept Him for their salvation.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Soul Searcher · Jun 21, 2005

My own take is that it is the two 2 Peter verses;

There is much room for speculation as to the nature of the lake of fire, I just find it curious that this is brought up at the time of judgement and that there are passages that speak of judgement by fire, that Gods spirit is refered to as fire, that Jesus is said to baptize with fire and so on, lots of symbolic fire in the bible.

Soul Searcher · Jun 21, 2005

Pilgrim 33 said:
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The bible also says that even the devil believes. Will he too be saved?

Jesus also said that the merciful shall obtain mercy, the forgiving shall be forgiven, and many other such things.

Scripture also says he is the saviour of all men especially (not limited to) them that believe.

But I'm not here to derail the thread.

Flynmonkie · Jun 21, 2005

You just did! Listen has anyone ever discussed this stuff with you before? If not I could try to take a shot at it and I am sure others would help.

Soul Searcher said:
The bible also says that even the devil believes. Will he too be saved?

It takes more than just mere belief, it is faith....a saving faith....this is what the verse in question speaks of.

Soul Searcher said:
Jesus also said that the merciful shall obtain mercy, the forgiving shall be forgiven, and many other such things.

He also says not everyone whom says Lord Lord will enter the gates of heaven. This means, you cannot earn your way into heaven by doing good things.

Soul Searcher said:
Scripture also says he is the savior of all men especially (not limited to) them that believe.

Salvation is open for everyone, not everyone will be saved. Not because God did not offer it.....but that they chose not to believe (have faith). Pilgrim is going to beat us up if we keep throwing this thread off. Like I said. Start a thread with all your concerns and I will talk with you! But I know pilgrim and I and others would like to keep this on track, OK?

Soul Searcher · Jun 21, 2005

Pilgrim 33 said:
Didn't that all empty out after Jesus' resurrection/Ascension?

If you're talking about hell, It is my understanding that hell will empty out on the day of the white throne judgement.

Soul Searcher · Jun 21, 2005

Flynmonkie said:
Start a thread with all your concerns and I will talk with you! But I know pilgrim and I and others would like to keep this on track, OK?

Ok

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16421294#post16421294

Pilgrim 33 · Jun 21, 2005

Hey folks,
This just is not going as hoped for...

I would appreciate an easy going peaceful discussion (NOT debating!) with like minded people

Being a very hot evengelical issue for decades now you'd think it would be something everyone would be interested in; instead, all it does it bring out the worst in everyone displaying how every bible college and seminary in the world has taught everyone how to proof text the bible for the past one hundred years. it's not just very sad, it's shameful.

I guess we'll just have to go start another thread somewhere else and try again.

I'm just not into arguing, debating, doing OP's study and research, and contending with contrary attitudes and neverending nit picking derailment consistantly oppositional to everything 2 Timothy 2:15 urges.

Maybe there's another forum somewhere else here where we can study these issues in peace without all the objectionable intrusion.

I'm sorry, I truly am, but, once again, I'm going to have to back out of this, it just isn't worth all the hassle and aggravation.

If you find somewhere please give me a shout and, itmt, I'll do the same.

B&D of P&T.

gort · Jun 21, 2005

Pilgrim 33 said:
Hey folks,
This just is not going as hoped for...

Being a very hot evengelical issue for decades now you'd think it would be something everyone would be interested in; instead, all it does it bring out the worst in everyone displaying how every bible college and seminary in the world has taught everyone how to proof text the bible for the past one hundred years. it's not just very sad, it's shameful.

I guess we'll just have to go start another thread somewhere else and try again.

I'm just not into arguing, debating, doing OP's study and research, and contending with contrary attitudes and neverending nit picking derailment consistantly oppositional to everything 2 Timothy 2:15 urges.

Maybe there's another forum somewhere else here where we can study these issues in peace without all the objectionable intrusion.

I'm sorry, I truly am, but, once again, I'm going to have to back out of this, it just isn't worth all the hassle and aggravation.

If you find somewhere please give me a shout and, itmt, I'll do the same.

B&D of P&T.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Unfortunately it is against the rules here to limit who can participate in threads.

It's also not right for a christian to coddle false beliefs which you seem to hold. I replied to your thread to show what the Bible has to say on the subject, that you proclaim is "unscriptural".

I've done my duty. I've contended for the Truth. I had hoped you would be open enough to see, and if not, then someone else would see the Truth from Bible Scripture and not the false teachings you seem to proclaim.

<><

Flynmonkie · Jun 21, 2005

Pilgrim33, I plan to do what most do from now on, just ignore the posts that are not pertaining directly to the issue. I am not sure how the ignore function works but I believe it will block out the posts of the poster in question. It is pretty sad that those whom are Christians, whom fully believe in the criteria that is posted for this board that denotes a Christian. Cannot further study (true study not follow the leader) unless we are sitting outside the "gates". I am not too happy about this.

This forum is for the discussion of doctrines held by people who are members of churches and denominations that do not fall within conventional mainstream evangelical Christianity

I am a member of a Church that does speak of "A total Seperation" from God. Not FIREY TORMENT HELL. And it is a part of the SBC. So why this thought is considered outside of the mainstream Christian denomination sphere I do not know.

"...I think people have a hard time believing God is going to allow people to burn in literal fire forever. I think the fire that is mentioned in the Bible is a burning thirst for God that can never be quenched."
The Orlando (Florida) Sentinel for April 10, 1983 Billy Graham

BILLY GRAHAM DOES NOT BELIEVE HELL IS A PLACE OF LITERAL FIERY TORMENT

Billy Graham was questioning the literal fire of hell as far back as 1951. During his crusade in Greensboro, North Carolina, from Oct. 14 to Nov. 18, 1951, Graham made the following statement:

I know that God has a fire which burns but does not consume; one example is the fire of the burning bush which Moses saw. I know also, however, that in many places throughout the Bible, the term fire is used figuratively to connote great punishment or suffering. The Bible speaks of fire set by the tongue (Graham, cited by Margaret Moffett Banks, Crusader: Graham saved souls, made headlines, News & Record, Greensboro, North Carolina, March 15, 1999).
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/fbns/fbns15.html

Flynmonkie · Jun 21, 2005

daneel said:
It's also not right for a christian to coddle false beliefs which you seem to hold. I replied to your thread to show what the Bible has to say on the subject, that you proclaim is "unscriptural". <><

Then I guess you had better check your bible again. False belief is thinking God is not Just. Studying scripture to understand meaning is a whole different ball game. If you believe that unbelievers are offered the gift of eternal life.... this is your problem, and not the topic of this thread. It is just that simple. Just because you have one verse that is clearly prophetic in nature, does not reason the reality of contradictory statements all over the Bible. Because in my Bible the unbeliever is clearly promised death. In addition there is NO substantial proof where the location of these people are outside the gate. Other than they are just not allowed to enter. How dare you hinder another Christian honestly searching scripture with very valid points with a False belief accusation? I am sick to death of seeing this. It is one thing to correct someone clearly not wishing to understand but to antagonize. It is yet another to hinder another Christian in examining scripture closely. It is of my opinion this accusation is a cop out because you dont know for sure or your too scared to find the truth it just might be out of the box you have lived in, or better yet a means for you to feel superior over another Christian. This is clearly not what Rightly dividing the Word means. And I do not see it is what God intended for Christians to do in study. There are three here so far that believe that this needs some investigation. Unless you have the answers to these questions definitively then you should probably be studying along with us.

In my research --It is not a matter IF there is a Hell as has been defined by English language. It is a matter of what it consists of.

If you continue to sling about accusations such as these I will not participate in any conversation with you. Just to make it clear.

Besides the Angelican beliefs of "hell".......

EVANGELICALS QUESTIONING HELL
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/evangelicalsquestioning.htm

Here are some very popular pastors, even the Pope whom agree to this study: Although this is a site against the idea.

The most recent example of the denial of Hell came from the lips of POPE JOHN PAUL II this year. He stated that Hell is not a physical place but "the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God." He denied that Hell is a place of fiery torment and described it rather as "the pain, frustration and emptiness of life without God." He further claimed that Hell is not a punishment imposed externally by God and that eternal damnation "is not God's work but is actually our own doing" (Reuters, July 29, 1999).
BILLY GRAHAM:[/B] "I think that hell essentially is separation from God forever. And that is the worst hell that I can think of.
I think the fire that is mentioned in the Bible is a burning thirst for God that can never be quenched" (Graham, Orlando Sentinel, Orlando, Florida, April 10, 1983). "Jesus used three words to describe hell. &Mac183; The third word that He used is 'fire.' Jesus used this symbol over and over. This could be literal fire, as many believe. Or it could be symbolic. God does have fires that do not burn. And also there is the figurative use of fire in the Bible. &Mac183; I've often thought that this fire could possibly be a burning thirst for God that is never quenched. What a terrible fire that would be never to find satisfaction, joy, or fulfillment!" (Billy Graham, A Biblical Standard for
Evangelists, A commentary on the 15 Affirmations made by participants at the International Conference for Itinerant Evangelists in Amsterdam, The Netherlands, July, 1983, pp. 4547). "The only thing I could say for sure is that hell means separation from God. We are separated from his light, from his fellowship. That is going to be hell. When it comes to a literal fire, I don't preach it because I'm not sure about it. When the Scripture uses fire concerning hell, that is possibly an illustration of how terrible it's going to be not fire but something worse, a thirst for God that cannot be quenched" (Billy Graham, interview with Richard Ostling, Time magazine, Nov. 15, 1993).
ROBERT SCHULLER:[/B] "And what is 'hell'? It is the loss of pride that naturally follows separation from Godthe ultimate and unfailing source of our soul's sense of self-respect. 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?' was Christ's encounter with hell. In that 'hellish' death our Lord experienced the ultimate horrorhumiliation, shame, and loss of pride as a human being. Can you imagine any condition more tragic than to live life and eternity in shame?" (Schuller, Self-Esteem: The New Reformation, 1982, pp. 14-15,93).
CHRISTIANITY TODAY:[/B] Two years after Schuller published Self-Esteem: The New Reformation, the editors of Christianity Today examined his theology and, amazingly, concluded that he is not a heretic. Consider an excerpt from an August 10, 1984, Christianity Today article by Kenneth Kantzer and Paul Fromer: "He believes all the 'fundamental' doctrines of traditional fundamentalism. He adheres to every line of the Apostles' Creed with a tenacity born of deep conviction. ... he avowed belief in a literal hell. He was not sure about its location, and THE FIRE IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD FIGURATIVELY..."
CHARLES STANLEY: On his radio broadcast, popular Southern Baptist pastor/author Charles Stanley said that God might not send people to hell if they have never heard the gospel. Following is an extract: "&Mac183;would God send somebody to hell because they did not receive Jesus whom they never heard about, never had the privilege of knowing about? And my answer is: No, he would not" (Stanley, In Touch Ministries, "Reconciling God's Love with His Justice," July 31, 2001). In other places during the broadcast it appears that Pastor Stanley is not sure about this matter and that he is basically agnostic about the destiny of those who have not heard the Gospel. Either way, it is a great error, because the Bible leaves no question about this. In the book of Ephesians, God describes the condition of those who are outside of Christ. They are dead in trespasses and sins (v. 1), by nature the children of wrath (v. 2), having no hope, and without God in the world (v. 12). This is the unsaved man's condition regardless of whether or not he has heard the gospel. He is condemned already, and that is why it is so imperative that Christ's commission be obeyed and the gospel be preached to the ends of the earth.
......................http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/takingthe.htm

bleechers · Jun 21, 2005

This is the second death. As far as Inspiration throws its light upon the sad lot of those consigned to that "lake of fire," theirs is an eternal fate. When some one has shown that doors of this final prison of the Universe have opened to permit the escape of those who have been consigned to its keeping, then we may perhaps indulge some hope that its prisoners will, in the lapse of endless years, escape from their sad environment.

Even if you accept that this is a punishment of ALL the unsaved, where does say that it is eternal? I think if you look at the text you will see a distinction made between vs. 10 ("for ever and ever") and v.15 which merely states that those there are "cast" in.

I think this may be a very specific group that is singled out in Rev 13. Paul knows nothing of the doctrine of "eternal punishment" and the OT is completely devoid of the concept.

Why was Adam never warned of it? He was only warned that he would "surely die" and "dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." There is never a threat of eternal condemnation. The Law knows nothing of it.

To Noah God only says that He will "destroy all flesh." Of the angels that sinned God said that they were "reserved for judgment," but not men. Sodom and Gemorrah were destroyed with no threat of eternal torment. Jonah warned Ninevah not of eternal torment, but of destruction.

In Ezekiel 3, the prophet is never told that his failure would end up in anyone's eternal torment:

"Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul."

When it says that Ezekiel will have his soul delivered if he warns the wicked, does that mean that God is threatening Ezekiel with eternal torment? Of course not.

gort · Jun 21, 2005

Then I guess you had better check your bible again. False belief is thinking God is not Just.

And where did I say God is unjust?

Find it before you accuse me unjustly.

Studying scripture to understand meaning is a whole different ball game. If you believe that unbelievers are offered the gift of eternal life.... this is your problem, and not the topic of this thread. It is just that simple. Just because you have one verse that is clearly prophetic in nature, does not reason the reality of contradictory statements all over the Bible. Because in my Bible the unbeliever is clearly promised death.

Find where I said this.

In addition there is NO substantial proof where the location of these people are outside the gate. Other than they are just not allowed to enter.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

How dare you hinder another Christian honestly searching scripture with very valid points with a False belief accusation? I am sick to death of seeing this. It is one thing to correct someone clearly not wishing to understand but to antagonize. It is yet another to hinder another Christian in examining scripture closely. It is of my opinion this accusation is a cop out because you dont know for sure or your too scared to find the truth it just might be out of the box you have lived in, or better yet a means for you to feel superior over another Christian.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

You might want to re-read the OP again and compare those question with what the bible has to say, along with the title of this thread.

In my research --It is not a matter IF there is a Hell as has been defined by English language. It is a matter of what it consists of.

You've missed something in this post. Particularly the bottom line.
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16412588&postcount=19

Here are some very popular pastors, even the Pope whom agree to this study: Although this is a site against the idea.

I have no real interest in what some pastor has to say regarding the subject on "What they think" Hell is.

As to the title of the thread, " Fallacy of eternal torment...."

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

<><

Flynmonkie · Jun 21, 2005

daneel said:
And where did I say God is unjust?

Find it before you accuse me unjustly.

Find where I said this.

<><

Just to answer this, it was an analogy. I will make sure this is known you did not make this statement. I used it as an example of topics that are being raised in this thread.

Have you ever researched the context of the verses you have posted? You might want to do this before you jump to conclusion.

gort · Jun 21, 2005

Just to answer this, it was an analogy. I will make sure this is known you did not make this statement. I used it as an example of topics that are being raised in this thread.

So it's an analogy when you accuse me and say "How dare you hinder another christian....."?

Have you ever researched the context of the verses you have posted? You might want to do this before you jump to conclusion.

All Scripture should be studied in context. I jump to no conclusions, nor do I participate in threads that I am ignorant of the subject matter, nor in an attempt to bluff my way through them. I am not a "proof texter", as the person who would have some here think.

<><

gort · Jun 21, 2005

bleechers quote:

Even if you accept that this is a punishment of ALL the unsaved, where does say that it is eternal? I think if you look at the text you will see a distinction made between vs. 10 ("for ever and ever") and v.15 which merely states that those there are "cast" in.

I would take "eternity" to mean the same as these verses:

Exo 15:18 Jehovah shall reign for ever and ever.

1Ch 16:36 Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Israel forever and ever. And all the people said, Amen, and praised Jehovah.

1Ch 29:10 And David blessed Jehovah before all the congregation. And David said, Blessed are You, Jehovah, the God of Israel our father, forever and ever.

Neh 9:5 And the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabniah, Sherebiah, Hodijah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said, Stand up and bless Jehovah your God forever and ever. And blessed be Your glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise.

Psa 9:5 You have rebuked the heathen, You have destroyed the wicked, You have put out their name forever and ever.

Psa 10:16 Jehovah is King forever and ever; the nations have perished out of His land.

Rev 4:9 And whenever the living creatures gave glory and honor and thanks to Him who sat on the throne, who lives forever and ever,

There are many other verses like that.

<><

Flynmonkie · Jun 21, 2005

daneel said:
So it's an analogy when you accuse me and say "How dare you hinder another christian....."?

All Scripture should be studied in context. I jump to no conclusions, nor do I participate in threads that I am ignorant of the subject matter, nor in an attempt to bluff my way through them. I am not a "proof texter", as the person who would have some here think.
<><

Oh, why yes! I see how well you discern context....but let me give you a bit of a clue here to help you along in discerning the text taken from my original statement........

Flynmonkie said:
How dare you hinder another Christian honestly searching scripture with very valid points with a False belief accusation? I am sick to death of seeing this. It is one thing to correct someone clearly not wishing to understand but to antagonize. It is yet another to hinder another Christian in examining scripture closely. It is of my opinion this accusation is a cop out because you dont know for sure or your too scared to find the truth it just might be out of the box you have lived in, or better yet a means for you to feel superior over another Christian. This is clearly not what Rightly dividing the Word means. And I do not see it is what God intended for Christians to do in study. There are three here so far that believe that this needs some investigation. Unless you have the answers to these questions definitively then you should probably be studying along with us.

That any clearer for you? Don't bother answering as that you have just hit my ignore list

the fallacy of eternal torment and related issues

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