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The Fall of Satan. Is it before Gen 1:1 or between Gen 1:1, 1:2?

lanceleo

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Hi RDKirk,

I have not heard this view yet.


What about Genesis 3? When Satan was a serpent and is cursed due to his decieving of Eve? Where/How does this fit in your theology?

Peace be to you
@RDKirk is right. When Satan was created, he was made a Cherub who covers. This was before his fall.

Ezekiel 28 13-14​
King James Version​
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.​
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,​
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.​
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.​
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.​
 
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RDKirk

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Hi RDKirk,

I have not heard this view yet.


What about Genesis 3? When Satan was a serpent and is cursed due to his decieving of Eve? Where/How does this fit in your theology?

Peace be to you
Same thing he was trying to do to Job. It was, apparently, his role.

You still have to ask the question: How many times did God kick Satan out of heaven?
 
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Paleouss

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Thank you lancelet,
@RDKirk is right. When Satan was created, he was made a Cherub who covers. This was before his fall.
Sorry for the confusion. I was not inquiring about what Satan was before the fall. Clearly Satan was not created fallen.

I was inquiring into the placement, or timeline of Santan's fall.
 
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Paleouss

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Same thing he was trying to do to Job. It was, apparently, his role.

You still have to ask the question: How many times did God kick Satan out of heaven?
I see what you re trying to say. I'm just not sure that it works out for me.

If Satan's role was to tempt Eve. Then why did God curse the serpant in Genesis 3? It seems this is a punishment and a prophecy (Gen 3:15).
 
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RDKirk

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I see what you re trying to say. I'm just not sure that it works out for me.

If Satan's role was to tempt Eve. Then why did God curse the serpant in Genesis 3? It seems this is a punishment and a prophecy (Gen 3:15).
The serpent was just an animal, not Satan himself, and was one of the broad, terrible results that the fall had upon the entire animal kingdom. And that did include the prophesy of Christ born of Mary.

Revelation clearly places Satan's fall from Heaven in the Church Age. How many times did God cast Satan out of heaven?
 
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Paleouss

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he serpent was just an animal, not Satan himself, and was one of the broad
I hope you are patient, since I haven't heard of this view before so I have a few honest questions.

Do you see Genesis 3:1 as actual history? That is, the serpant actually spoke to Eve.

Since you say the serpent in Gen 3:1 is not Satan himself, then I'm assuming that Rev 20:2 is not your connective verse to claim the serpent is Satan in Gen 3:1.

In Genesis 3:15 it refers to "thy seed" and "her seed". In your view, what is "thy seed" and who is "thy"? If it is the serpent, but not Satan, what does it mean when it refers to "thy seed"?

Again, honest questions.
 
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RDKirk

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I hope you are patient, since I haven't heard of this view before so I have a few honest questions.

Do you see Genesis 3:1 as actual history? That is, the serpant actually spoke to Eve.
I think Genesis 3 is a vision revealed by God to a man who described what he saw according to the limitations of his understanding...in the same way as John recorded his own revelation.
Since you say the serpent in Gen 3:1 is not Satan himself, then I'm assuming that Rev 20:2 is not your connective verse to claim the serpent is Satan in Gen 3:1.
You tell me: Is Satan an earthly animal? Was Satan really an earthly animal? Or was that how a man who was shown a vision of a spiritual scene interpreted it?
In Genesis 3:15 it refers to "thy seed" and "her seed". In your view, what is "thy seed" and who is "thy"? If it is the serpent, but not Satan, what does it mean when it refers to "thy seed"?

Again, honest questions.
Jesus refers to Satan as being the father of two things. Jesus characterizes Satan as the father of lies, and He also characterizes Satan as the father of religious hypocrites. So, those things are Satan's "seed."
 
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RonJohnSilver

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The problem is that the Gap Theory, while compelling, has some serious issues, a lot of relating to how the Hebrew expresses things, sometimes one way sometimes another. If you put Satan's fall prior to the Gen. 1:1 account, then you have to explain the verse in Peter that says sin came into the world by one man, well, that one man is Adam-not too much dispute about that- so if Adam's fall was the beginning of sin, then Satan's fall could not have happened prior to that, which is what the Gap Theory hangs on. Also, if Satan had rebelled prior to Gen. !:!, then it would make no sense for God to say that the creation was "very good." That condition could clearly not be thought of as "very good." What it comes down to, to me anyway, is that this is one of those areas where God has chosen to not reveal the details. I suspect that we'll get to know the details when we see God, but for now, we just have restrain our curiousity. Also, a variation of the Gap Theory suggests that there were pre-humans of some kind in existence for some time prior to the "re-creation." That really opens up a ton of issues besides the ones I mentioned. You can spend a lot of time and money reading the various theories about creation but I don't think anyone has a complete answer. For me, I just stay with what the text seems to say, God created everything once, in 6 24-hour days and then He rested. I can't explain carbon dating, long ages, ice ages, light years or any of the issues arising from the creation account(s). Frankly, I don't think anyone can. I'll just wait for God to show me how He did it.
 
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Paleouss

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Hi RonJohn

Hope your week has started out with many blessings. In a post to me a while back you wrote...
The problem is that the Gap Theory, while compelling, has some serious issues,
I agree. But then again, seems like they all do. You later wrote...
I suspect that we'll get to know the details when we see God, but for now, we just have restrain our curiousity.
I would more comfortably say that one needs to recognize when they enter the realm of speculation to make sure they do not go beyond scripure, which in turn would curtail dogmatism that may not be warranted.
the verse in Peter that says sin came into the world by one man, well, that one man is Adam-not too much dispute about that
I totally agree. Sin entered the world by one man, Adam (Rom 5:12). Which, on a side note, is enteresting. Becuase we know that Eve sinned first and Adam was not deceived (1Tim 2:14). So now we must consider that two individuals, Satan and Eve, possibly sinned before Adam. Yet Adam was the one attributed in scripture as being the one that brought sin into the world. Explanations have been attempted on both these fronts. But the point is, it is complex and incomplete, we may not know the answer completly until we meet our Father in heaven.

Also, if Satan had rebelled prior to Gen. !:!, then it would make no sense for God to say that the creation was "very good."
I agree. A smaller hurdle, I think. But I agree.

In regard to the topic of Satan's fall being much later in the account of the Bible (I know you didn't address this). It would appear to me that this view also has many problems.

In 1 John 3:8, it says, "He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning." The part I want to explore is that the devil "sinned from the beginning". The first point, if the devil sinned from the beginning then he was fallen before the coming of Jesus. One might consider what this "beginning" means. That is, is it from Satan's beginning or mankind's beginning or some other beginning. I would fall on the side of man's beginning. Which would place Satan in the garden with Adam and Eve (Rev 12:9). Either already fallen or the tempting was his fall point.

This "from the beginning" is also supported in John 8:44, "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning...". Clearly the author is asserting, in these two verses, that Satan was fallen early in the mankind story, i.e. from the beginning. And what does it mean he was a murderer? Who is he accused of murdering, from the beginning?

Further, in Revelation 12:9, Satan is referred to as the "serpent of old". Which at first blush appears to be referring to Satan as that "serpent" known and written about in "old" times. These old times, when written, was before Jesus. When in old times was there a serpent written about? Possibly Genesis chapter 3.

We can go further and explore this "of your father the devil" statement found in both these verses (1John 3:8, John 8:44). In 1John 3:10-12, it establishes a dichotomy of two types of "children". There are the "children of God" (1John 3:10 a) and the "children of the devil" (1John 3:10 b). Then it goes on to give an example for each of these spiritually familial groups. First, it gives an example for the familial children of the devil group, "Cain" (1John 3:12) Then it gives an example for the familial children of God group, "his brother" (Abel). All this is referring to Genesis chapter 4. It would seem apparent that the devil was already the "god of this world" (2Cor 4:4, Eph 2:2, John 12:31, John 16:11) all the way back to Genesis chapter 4. And possibly took on this title as soon as Adam sinned (Gen 3:6). For he was not the god of the world that was "very good" (Gen 1:31). That world, that was very good, was God's creation and given to Adam to have dominion over (Gen 1:28). It was Adam's.


May peace be yours, through Christ, all the days of your life.
 
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