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brotherjerry

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Well Satan existed before Man - he was already the devil the "serpent of old" according to Rev 12 - by the time he meets Eve.
What verse tells you that Satan existed before Man?

And that is not anything that is being mentioned...I never said Satan fell on his first day....nothing of the sort.

I am saying that God created sinless angels and the entire universe in Gen 1:1 - that includes galaxies, solar systems, planets, you name it. Genesis 1:1.
But Gen 1:1 is a simplification of what is being talked about in the rest of the Chapter...which is something done in Gen 2 as well. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...all together in one creation process which is described as taking 6 days and confirmed by at least two other verses in the Bible. A separate creation in Gen 1:1 is something that is not explicitely shown in the Bible and is opinion that does not have the rest of the Bible to support it, only opinion.

In Gen 1 on day four - God made exactly "TWO" lights - not "a zillion and two".
Actually it says that there are lights...that means more than one and could mean millions or billions. But then there were two to rule the night and day. That means that they more than one out there if they are to rule. So there are stars.

That is true - only those planets in our own Galaxy could see these constellations.
Not true. They would simply not see the constellations as we have named them. Two different countries may have a spoon, but they call it different things. Some other planet could see what we call the Big Dipper and it could be the same stars that make it up...but they may call it the Big Spatchula.

That is a bit of a stretch.
Not a stretch at all...can you find one constellation named in the Bible? God left the animals for man to name...why not the constellations as well that would be used for telling seasons, years, etc. God did not hand man a "handbook" of the planet, much was left for man to discover and find.

Not according to Genesis 2.

In Genesis 2 - Eve is tempted by the serpent-Satan and Adam is tempted by Eve.

The devil was tempted by no one in Eden - he was already the devil.
It is Genesis 3 not 2...but I am sure that was just a typo
And being tempted is not a sin, if it was then Christ sinned because Satan tempted Him as well.
What the original sin was not the act of eating the fruit, but it was ignoring what God had declared good and evil and deciding for themselves what was good and what was evil. "When the woman saw that the tree was GOOD for food"

It was a "change" for the serpent to have to slither on the ground.
Agreed, but that is not what you said. You specifically said the serpent had wings. Can you find any verse that supports that or is that extra biblical opinions you are using and thus quite possibly other things you mention are also not found in the Bible, such as creation of the Universe happening long before God created the Earth?

I complete agree. The Bible does not say that there was the universe created before the 6 days. Straight line would start with nothing and in 6 days we have everything. What we also have from the Bible is nothing indicating exactly when Satan fell.
But what we do have is that Satan thought he was important and tempted Eve. Eve sinned, Adam followed. Man fell. We see God cursing the serpent and casting it to the ground which matches references we see of Satan's fall...falling from heaven to the earth. The evidence would suggest that quite possibly Satan fell when he caused man to fall.
 
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BobRyan

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I complete agree. The Bible does not say that there was the universe created before the 6 days.

And it does not say in Genesis 1 that "Abraham saw the days of Christ and was glad" John 8.
And it does not say in Genesis 1 that "The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

What we learn from that is that Genesis is not an exhaustive account of everything done, said or known in that first 1600 years of human history.

Nor is it an exhaustive account of the 1000 of years that came before that for the rest of the Universe.

If we ignore this important Bible truth then we assume that the text is an exhaustive account - and in all the universe there is nothing before week-day-1 of creation week.

A speculative assumption some are willing to make - but not me.

What we also have from the Bible is that Satan fell because of his pride and no mention at all of Satan falling because of Eve.

What we also have from the Bible is that Eve fell because of the serpent - who began by lying.
What we also have from the bible is that Adam fell because of Eve.

But what we do have is that Satan thought he was important and tempted Eve.

The Bible account of the fall of Eve does not say that "the devil thought he was important" - rather the devil does evil, he is a liar from the start -

Rev 12 tells us it was the devil in Eden - not Genesis.
is 14 and Ezek 28 tell us that Satan was perfect and sinless at his creation then fell due to pride ... not Genesis.

The Bible is clear - rejecting every detail not already in Genesis would be a problem in the Gospels, in Rev, in Isaiah, in Ezekiel.


We see God cursing the serpent and casting it to the ground

And later we find that Satan fell as part of war in heaven.


The evidence would suggest that quite possibly Satan fell when he caused man to fall.

Or that he was already the devil - fallen and a tempter when he met Eve.
 
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BobRyan

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And that is not anything that is being mentioned...I never said Satan fell on his first day....nothing of the sort.

out of curiosity - when do you guess he fell?? his first week? month? decade?

On which day of Genesis 1 did he cause 1/3 of the Angels to fall?

On what day does Genesis 1 say Lucifer was created?
 
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BobRyan

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But Gen 1:1 is a simplification of what is being talked about in the rest of the Chapter...which is something done in Gen 2 as well.

Yes Gen 1:1 is a broad statement covering the entire universe.
Gen 1:2-2:3 adds detail - about this earth and our own solar system - details not in Gen 1:1
Gen 2 - adds detail about marriage and the two trees... details not in Gen 1:1, not in Gen 1:2-2:3.

Rev 12 - adds details not in Gen 1 -3 about the devil being the serpent.
Is 14, Ezek 28 -- adds details not in Gen 3 - that the devil used to be Lucifer, sinless, perfect, Cherub - foremost among the created beings God had made.

There is a pattern.
 
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BobRyan

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1. Indeed - details are added later -- And I think God fully capable of giving us even more details on that subject when we get to heaven.
2. The point of posting a tiny bit of the "Story of Redemption" is to give you some better idea of what I am thinking on this subject. I don't argue that you must agree with me - simply that you know what my POV is.
 
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mark kennedy

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That makes sense, looks like you and I, at least, are on the same page. There isn't a great deal about Satan in the OT but Jesus had a good deal to say about him. This is typical of Jesus' ministry, he is pretty much the only one in the Bible to discusses hell and he has more to say about hell then he does heaven. Early Christians believed they were are war with spiritual forces, Ephesians 6:10-18 describes this in dramatic military imagery. He is described as a Dragon in the Revelation and in Job he is described as a fire breathing dragon no less. In passages like, Isa. 14 and Eze. 28, there are overlapping meanings, not readily evident in a cursory reading. What we do well to consider is that Satan is seen at the beginning and at the end and Jesus describes him as the premier enemy of believers.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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brotherjerry

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out of curiosity - when do you guess he fell?? his first week? month? decade?

On which day of Genesis 1 did he cause 1/3 of the Angels to fall?

On what day does Genesis 1 say Lucifer was created?
To be honest Bob, I do not know when Satan fell...the Bible really does not say.

But what I have been discussing is theory in which Satan fell when man fell...the fall depicted in Genesis 3 shows Satan's pride in thinking he could tempt God's creation. The imagery used lines up with other images of Satan being cast to the earth.
 
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brotherjerry

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Understood...but as long as we understand that even when you are posting Ms. White, unless it is backed by Biblical verses then it is simply an opinion.
 
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BobRyan

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To be honest Bob, I do not know when Satan fell...the Bible really does not say.

But the Bible does say that he did fall. And that in his sinless unfallen state he was Lucifer created sinless perfect. Still "When" he fell -- the exact day he fell - well we get that detail -- in the future. But it does not mean the detail does not "exist" just because it is not in Genesis 1 or 3.

And the Bible does not say exactly when Lucifer was created - but it does say that he was created. Another detail that we will find out more about - in the future.

But what I have been discussing is theory in which Satan fell when man fell...the fall depicted in Genesis 3 shows Satan's pride in thinking he could tempt God's creation. The imagery used lines up with other images of Satan being cast to the earth.

Certainly there are at least some reasons to make that guess.

I prefer the guess that has Lucifer - already the devil when he is called the serpent - the one tempting Eve. In my case my guess in informed by God giving someone a vision regarding a lot of details about that event. But as you say - not everyone has that for their guess on this subject. I respect that.
 
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BobRyan

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Understood...but as long as we understand that even when you are posting Ms. White, unless it is backed by Biblical verses then it is simply an opinion.

It is just a way to convey the details about my point of view. There were a few posts that went like this "well if that is true.. then what about this... or that... when did that happen" -- so rather than going through the explanation of my view one question at a time - I thought I would hand out a reference link so anyone could see what my POV is -
 
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brotherjerry

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Understood and appreciated.

So who is this that you say was given a vision? Ms. White? How can we confirm what she was given was from God. The Bible says that we are to hold everyone accountable to the Word of God...if it does not match up then it cannot be from God. Which also means if we cannot confirm it from what God has already provided us then we cannot accept it as coming from God either. This is a big problem the Mormons have as well.
 
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BobRyan

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Almost every prophet in the Bible was accused of being a false prophet - and of course the Bible also tells us that some false prophets also existed in Bible times and would continue to be a problem.

The Bible also tells us that God sends his prophets - and in Matt 23 Christ condemned the nation of Israel saying that He would send more prophets and they would reject them. Rejecting God's prophets never went well in Bible times.

But as you point out any denomination that has the prophetic gift (including pentecostals and charismatics, Mormons, the Apostle Paul in the NT church, Seventh-day Adventists) will affirm some prophets and reject others. The Bible gives us a "Test of a prophet" - for example

Isaiah 8:20 "To the LAW and to the testimony - if they speak NOT according to this WORD they have no light"

Gal 1:6-9 "Though WE (apostles) or an angel from heaven should preach to you another Gospel - let him be accursed"

In other words -- whatever the prophet says as a message that is claimed to have come from God - must be tested against the Bible to "SEE IF those things are so" Acts 17:11 - see IF the Bible condemns or allows that doctrine.

For that reason I do not urge that non-SDAs need to accept Ellen White as a prophet - I would rather do the sola scriptura Bible studies with them. But with fellow SDAs - using a common doctrinal understanding of the Bible - it is a fair subject to promote.

For non-SDAs I recommend being aware of the details so you better understand the POV of whatever SDA you may be talking with, not saying you have to agree.

For example Joseph Smith taught that God sent him an angel and that the angel said he would kill Joseph Smith if Smith did not commit polygamy. (And of course a zillion other examples of nonsense of that flavor). Easily tested by the Bible.

Ellen White made a number of predictions about America in the 1800's saying that it would become the one-world-superpower, saying that fiercely Protestant America of the 1860's would eventually partner with - and even carry out the bidding of the Papacy.. though not actually becoming Catholic themselves.

She was shown by God that the message of Rev 14:6-13 and Rev 18:1-6 is the last warning message that will be given to the world before the 2nd coming. Sorta like Noah's "Boat" message for 120 years.

She saw a massive amount of detail in the life of Christ - and wrote about it her book "The Desire of Ages" including his birth, ministry, passion week, death, burial, resurrection and the work He is doing now in heaven as the Hebews 8:1 High Priest for mankind.

She foresaw events of the 2nd coming, millennium, Lake of Fire, New Earth and described them in great detail. She was given health visions/dreams that resulted in the creation of the most advanced medical health care and hospital system of her day - and to this very day one of the 6 "Blue Zone" communities on planet earth (long lived people) is in a community she started in Loma Linda. She did the same thing with education such that today the Seventh-day Adventist church has the 2nd largest private education system in the world and 2nd largest Christian owned/operated health care system of any denomination in the world.

  • She is the most translated American author.
  • Her total literary output is approximately 100,000 pages. More than 100 books have been published from her writings.
  • She wrote books on numerous topics, including spirituality, parenting, social issues, health, and financial counsel. All of her works point the reader to God and the Bible.
  • Her most translated book, Steps to Christ, a how-to guide on being a Christian, has been translated into more than 165 languages.
  • Smithsonian Magazine named her one of the 100 Most Significant Americans of All Time. (2014)
 
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BobRyan

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A tiny bit of her vision regarding the 2nd coming.

from her free online book - the "Great Controversy" and a vivid description of the Second Coming. (All her books are free online)

(Note - almost all Christians are aware that as we near the second coming - instead of everyone on earth becoming more and more sinless and kind - what happens is that "the love of many shall grow cold" and the world sinks into chaos and sin. Yet the saints will continue to be the "salt of the earth" the light of the world always pointing rebellious mankind to the Gospel and the Love of God who will soon come to set things right).

Book: "The Great Controversy"

CHAPTER 40
God's People Delivered


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With shouts of triumph, jeering, and imprecation, throngs of evil men are about to rush upon their prey, when, lo, a

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dense blackness, deeper than the darkness of the night, falls upon the earth. Then a rainbow, shining with the glory from the throne of God, spans the heavens and seems to encircle each praying company. The angry multitudes are suddenly arrested. Their mocking cries die away. The objects of their murderous rage are forgotten. With fearful forebodings they gaze upon the symbol of God's covenant and long to be shielded from its overpowering brightness.

By the people of God a voice, clear and melodious, is heard, saying, "Look up," and lifting their eyes to the heavens, they behold the bow of promise. The black, angry clouds that covered the firmament are parted, and like Stephen they look up steadfastly into heaven and see the glory of God and the Son of man seated upon His throne. In His divine form they discern the marks of His humiliation; and from His lips they hear the request presented before His Father and the holy angels: "I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am." John 17:24. Again a voice, musical and triumphant, is heard, saying: "They come! they come! holy, harmless, and undefiled. They have kept the word of My patience; they shall walk among the angels;" and the pale, quivering lips of those who have held fast their faith utter a shout of victory.

It is at midnight that God manifests His power for the deliverance of His people. The sun appears, shining in its strength. Signs and wonders follow in quick succession. The wicked look with terror and amazement upon the scene, while the righteous behold with solemn joy the tokens of their deliverance. Everything in nature seems turned out of its course. The streams cease to flow. Dark, heavy clouds come up and clash against each other. In the midst of the angry heavens is one clear space of indescribable glory, whence comes the voice of God like the sound of many waters, saying: "It is done." Revelation 16:17.

That voice shakes the heavens and the earth. There is a

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mighty earthquake, "such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great." Verses 17, 18. The firmament appears to open and shut. The glory from the throne of God seems flashing through. The mountains shake like a reed in the wind, and ragged rocks are scattered on every side. There is a roar as of a coming tempest. The sea is lashed into fury. There is heard the shriek of a hurricane like the voice of demons upon a mission of destruction. The whole earth heaves and swells like the waves of the sea. Its surface is breaking up. Its very foundations seem to be giving way. Mountain chains are sinking. Inhabited islands disappear. The seaports that have become like Sodom for wickedness are swallowed up by the angry waters. Babylon the great has come in remembrance before God, "to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath." Great hailstones, every one "about the weight of a talent," are doing their work of destruction. Verses 19, 21. The proudest cities of the earth are laid low. The lordly palaces, upon which the world's great men have lavished their wealth in order to glorify themselves, are crumbling to ruin before their eyes. Prison walls are rent asunder, and God's people, who have been held in bondage for their faith, are set free.

...

Thick clouds still cover the sky; yet the sun now and then breaks through, appearing like the avenging eye of Jehovah.

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Fierce lightnings leap from the heavens, enveloping the earth in a sheet of flame. Above the terrific roar of thunder, voices, mysterious and awful, declare the doom of the wicked. The words spoken are not comprehended by all; but they are distinctly understood by the false teachers. ...

Through a rift in the clouds there beams a star whose brilliancy is increased fourfold in contrast with the darkness. It speaks hope and joy to the faithful, but severity and wrath to the transgressors of God's law. Those who have sacrificed all for Christ are now secure, hidden as in the secret of the Lord's pavilion. They have been tested, and before the world and the despisers of truth they have evinced their fidelity to Him

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who died for them. A marvelous change has come over those who have held fast their integrity in the very face of death. They have been suddenly delivered from the dark and terrible tyranny of men transformed to demons. Their faces, so lately pale, anxious, and haggard, are now aglow with wonder, faith, and love. Their voices rise in triumphant song: "God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof." Psalm 46:1-3.

...

It is impossible to describe the horror and despair of those who have trampled upon God's holy requirements. The Lord gave them His law; they might have compared their characters with it and learned their defects while there was yet opportunity for repentance and reform; but in order to secure the favor of the world, they set aside its precepts and taught others to transgress....
 
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brotherjerry

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But as you have rightfully stated, ALL must be tested against Scripture....that includes that which is not included in Scripture but is claimed to have been delivered by God. So if someone says God showed them something, told them something, then it had best align with Scripture, anything outside of that is by definition not Biblical.

And we stray further from the topic
 
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Berean777

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They did eventually physically die. There is the tree of life as well as the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The tree of life gave them immortality and the tree of knowledge of good and evil was out of bounds. They could eat of the tree of life, but not of the other tree of knowledge of good and evil.


The statement to take also from the tree of life and eat, is implying another tree that gave them immortality. Now since God said you shall surely die, this necessitated that Adam and Eve be kicked out of the Garden. The Garden was not heaven, but a place between heaven and the earth that we have come to know today. The Garden was a nexus, a place where time stood still on the seventh day. God rested meant that time was in stasis on a utopian earth, that was not yet put under the laws of entropy.



We note that after the day count leading up to the seventh day of creation, we see absolutely no reference to Adam's or Eve's days or any mention that they grew old. Rather we see as soon as they were kicked out of the Utopian Garden Nexus, the time started ticking over and th laws of entropy came into motion, where death was now an unavoidable reality for Adam and Eve.

The evidence for this is in the way God makes this distinction between immortality and mortality related to physical existance and not from a spiritual context.

Genesis 2:17
17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

The type of death is according to the laws of entropy as time now started to tick over.


Notice that the women is now being told about the physical nature of pregnancy and delivery. The pain is physical and real. Adam is also reminded of the physical pain that he will go through, when he now needs to forage for food, by the sweat of his forehead. Notice also the statement "from dust you are and to dust you will return", is now a real and physical aspect of Adam's and Eve's pending reality, which was previously unheard of and unknown to them, for there was no death in the Garden.

All the above is indicative proof of a Garden within the nexus of God, where time and entropy have no part, until they are removed from the Garden.

So what other tree was in the Garden that gave them immortality, aside from the fact that time is in stasis?


So what was it about having the knowledge that allowed Adam and Eve to become like the Lord?

To be able to live forever and to procreate meant that Adam and Eve will make offsprings who will live forever and in this respect they will be regarded as gods amongst their offsprings. This is why Eve could not become pregnant and deliver children within the Garden, otherwise it would be a runaway hybrid of immortals who will eventually become gods in their own minds. If we mortals have the tendency of being like rulers/gods when we have absolute power, then think how much worse it will be if we were immortals?

So what did Eve eat that made her aware of something that she was not aware of previously?

You see the serpent was telling her partial truth, in that if they did eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they will eventually figure out that they can procreate and make their eternal kingdom and in this regard become like gods who do not die. What Satan didn't tell them, is that they won't stick in the Garden to realise this. So eventually Adam and Eve figure out that they can have sex and make children, whereas before the Garden they knew not and were like children. The evidence is apparent when they no sooner leave the Garden that they get started in sexual activities that brought forth children.

How do we know this, well it is described in the text itself....


So before eating from the forbidden tree, Adam and Eve had no sexual desires that would enable them to look upon each other to have children. So the Garden had no children, for there was no procreation and that goes for the animals as well. Time stasis remember.

That is why God explained to Eve that she will now face the possibility of pains arising from child birth.
 
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Berean777

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So the presumption that Adam and Eve had 100s of children whilst in the Garden, in which all sinned because of the actions of Adam and Eve is totally unfounded, because there were no other people except Adam and Eve.

Otherwise you would have immortal men running around the Garden like gods doing sexual activities like Sodom.
 
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Willtor

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That's a wall of text. I'm only going to address the two core points I was making:


They eventually died, physically, but not the day they ate of that tree, as God had said. Likewise, the Tree of Life was totally redundant to the garden if they had been physically immortal before eating of the other tree. It's part in the story is confusing at best if it wasn't there to sustain their lives. In fact, even the name is nonsensical in a world of immortality.
 
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Berean777

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Satan must therefore be the fallen angel that started the mother of all deceptions that you can become like gods. In fact Satan tempted Jesus along those lines by showing him all the kingdoms of the world that he will give him.

Satan was mentioned by Jesus a number of times, alluding to a fallen angel who tried to pervert God's will by influencing man to do his bidding whilst he chuckled at God for creating Adam and Eve in the first place. In fact Satan or Lucifer mentioned in Isaiah 14 highlights the fact that this is the same angel who claims that he runs the kingdoms of the world. Since Babylon wa the centre of civilisation in those times, the author Isaiah called Satan aka Lucifer the King of Babylon. Sometimes in the Old Testament you see him being called the King of Tyre. Since the King of tyre contends with Gabriel the arch Angel, this King cannot be human, but an angel who takes ownership of that kingdom, in the same way Satan took ownership of all the kingdoms of the world when offering them to Jesus in Matthew 4:9.

On the feuds below we see the same character taking ownership of the kings of the world, that is why Satan is the prince of this world.


The ownership of the earthly kingdoms are given in Satan's hands. Earth is Satan's playing ground and Isaiah portrays this poetically.....


It would seem plausible that Satan was the leading Angel who was given dominion to oversea Adam and Eve in the Garden and the way he communicated to Eve is through serpent lips that arp used her to jealousy to want to become like God, but really according to Isaiah it was Satan who wanted this and so he pitted man against God to start this bitter controversy and battle that has God calling the outcome by the following versus.....

Genesis 3:5
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

Since this is not a physical battle between God and Satan, otherwise If Hod wanted to he could have knocked the day lights out of Satan right there and then, rather it was an accusation against God's character, where God calls the shots where he will bring a offspring called the SEED (Jesus Christ), who will eventually crush Satan's head as Satan strikes his heel (crucifies the Seed). In other words God outwitted Satan at his own game and made him filth as. In fact when Peter tried to tell Jesus that he will not allow him to be crucified, Jesus responded get behind me Satan. In other words Jesus was saying this is a long standing controversy and it is personal, so Peter get out of my way and don't let Satan influence your thoughts.
 
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Berean777

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We don't know what the tree of life was, so it was not redundant otherwise God would not have said.

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

What ever the tree of life was, it was based in the Garden and it was required for Utopia to stay Utopia.

In fact if you read the New Testament the tree of life is the Living Vine, Christ Jesus and we are told to eat of him freely. Notice since Adam and Eve were banned from eating from the tree of life, when God saw it fit, he sent the tree of life into the world. That is why Jesus said....

John 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
 
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Berean777

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John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

Again the tree of life has come into the world and he that eats of Christ will be immortal in the life to come.

Notice Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden, which was a place between heaven and the earth that we know today. Christ came from heaven and he has invited us to migrate to heaven in his Father's house. So the Garden and Heaven are completely different places. Once was for the terrestrial man of earth and the other is for the heavenly man as lord from heaven.
 
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