The Existence of Freewill

[Albion]

Alright, I asked it before. For those arguing we don't have free will, what would free will look like?

For us to conclude that all men have real free will, it would be necessary for them to all correctly and fully understand every choice they face and freely select one. If there is ANY limitation on their awareness, it isn't free will. They may indeed still have the right and ability to choose between alternatives, but without perfect knowledge, you can't say free will is in operation. For instance, let's say you are going to buy a used car. You choose the Honda instead of the Buick.

Did you exercise choice? Sure. Did you know everything about each of them, such that you could say you went into the process with you "eyes open?" If you didn't know that the Honda had many more miles on it than the odometer read, you didn't have free will. You were, in fact, deceived, even though you took the Honda over the Buick. Your freedom was short circuited, although you didn't realize it.

So also with Man choosing God or making moral decisions. He makes a choice, but unless you can honestly show that he has all the cards in front of him--and understands them perfectly--it's not an exercise of free will. It's just 'three-card monte.' And if we all had such clarity, we'd have no difficulty agreeing 100% on abortion, gay marriage, etc. But we don't agree, do we?

 

[elopez]

As I said before in another post, without freewill, Christianity (and, based upon what I know of them, all major religions) could not be true. Therefore, unless there is good reason for believing in freewill beyond us simply not liking the consequences of the alternative, I would dismiss mainstream religion.

I gave a reason for believing in free will aside from us not liking the idea that it's not true. That reason being free will is shown in Scripture.

 

[Albion]

That reason being free will is shown in Scripture.

I believe what you are referring to is a reference to choosing, not to having freewill.

 

[LoAmmi]

You believe omniscience is required for free will?

 

[Albion]

You believe omniscience is required for free will?

No. Nor did I describe that.

 

[LoAmmi]

No. Nor did I describe that.

If I understood you correctly, you said that if we don't know everything about every choice, it isn't free will. That is basically omniscience.

 

[Albion]

If I understood you correctly, you said that if we don't know everything about every choice, it isn't free will. That is basically omniscience.

No, it's not. Most of the truths about the workings of the universe don't require you to make any choices at all.

 

[LoAmmi]

No, it's not. Most of the truths about the workings of the universe don't require you to make any choices at all.

I can't follow this thread from the conversation. I don't understand how we get from freewill to the workings of the universe.

 

[Albion]

I can't follow this thread from the conversation. I don't understand how we get from freewill to the workings of the universe.

You asked how we can have freewill and not know everything.

Do you know how to split an atom or how long the Milky Way has existed? If "no," then you have shown that omniscience would not be a prerequisite for free will.

 

[LoAmmi]

You asked how we can have freewill and not know everything.

Do you know how to split an atom or how long the Milky Way has existed? If "no," then you have shown that omniscience would not be a prerequisite for free will.

Ah, ok. But it would still require knowing absolutely everything about a decision we are about to make? Specific subject omniscience then, for lack of a better term I can think of at 11:30?

 

[Albion]

Ah, ok. But it would still require knowing absolutely everything about a decision we are about to make? Specific subject omniscience then, for lack of a better term I can think of at 11:30?

Hey, I agree. We don't need to descend into splitting hairs or talking abstractly in order to understand the point.

If you don't have sufficient information, smarts, etc. or are affected by your upbringing or culture such that you can't properly appreciate the choices in front of you, it's not "free" will, even if you do make a choice.

 

[LoAmmi]

If you don't have sufficient information, smarts, etc. or are affected by your upbringing or culture such that you can't properly appreciate the choices in front of you, it's not "free" will, even if you do make a choice.

I don't really agree with that. You are still free to act within that which you are able to know. Sure, things factor into decisions, but that doesn't mean you are not free to make the other choice. To me, freewill is the ability to make decisions, not the capacity to do so.

 

[Albion]

I don't really agree with that. You are still free to act within that which you are able to know. Sure, things factor into decisions, but that doesn't mean you are not free to make the other choice. To me, freewill is the ability to make decisions, not the capacity to do so.

Very well. But then, is this really expected of us by God? Many people think that making the right choices is our responsibility and that we have only ourselves to blame if we are lost eternally. Or that we can accept Christ but then change our mind and reject him, damning ourselves. You would agree, I guess, based upon your answer here, but I can't. This would be like God playing games with us dimwits, knowing that our capacity varies widely from person to person (meaning that we're not all given the same chance) from non-existent to confused to sorta aware.

 

[LoAmmi]

I cannot comment on the Christianity part of it. It is outside my belief system and it isn't something that I take into account when determining these things.

 

[elopez]

Given this, you should not have to prove free-will. the burden of proof would be on the deterministic view. there is no logical reason why determinism should be the default position. In fact everything is against it.

Determinism should not be the default position as there is still the logical option of free will co - existing with determinism, which is called compatibilism and is embraced by many Christians.

What do you mean everything is against determinism? Actually, everything is for it. I am talking of course about the omniscience of God, which is to have knowledge of all - things including the future happenings of mankind. That said what God foreknows of prior to creation is going to happen no matter what; there is nothing that can change that course of known outcomes. That is closely related to logical determinism, which is the view that all propositions about the future are either true or false. We don't know however what propositions are true for tomorrow, the next day, and so on, so we must wait to see if it will happen or make it happen ourselves. That is where free will is relevant to logical determinism: those propositions that God foreknows which are true are not realized by us, and so we tend to think and evaluate our choices and the possible effects.

Then there is casual determinism. That is widely supported by the idea of God. Future happenings occur because of past factors or other past happenings. Like, me responding to you now is happening because I came to the website, and I came to the website because I turned the computer on, etc. The trace of that and all of humanity is attributed to the very first act which was God creating. There is still free will in casual determinism as what we do in the future that is determined is nevertheless what we desire to do, it is how we want to act based on the evaluation of the effects in our mind. As long as nothing is forcing us to act against our will, or preventing us from acting how we want to, we have free will.

 

[elopez]

I believe what you are referring to is a reference to choosing, not to having freewill.

Choosing = free will

.....

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The argument has become mixed with "freedom," and "free will."

Free will doesn't mean we will not choose incorrectly, but will have the option of choosing.

As a philosopher once wrote, "freedom isn't necessarily having the privilege to choose between good and evil, but the ability to choose only good."

Few choose evil for themselves knowing it will have the consequences evil brings.


However, free will doesn't provide the choice to choose only good, but the option between choosing between good and evil.

"Freedom," on the other hand, is the ability to choose only what is good.


Jim

 

[Albion]

The argument has become mixed with "freedom," and "free will."

Free will doesn't mean we will not choose incorrectly, but will have the option of choosing.

As a philosopher once wrote, "freedom isn't necessarily having the privilege to choose between good and evil, but the ability to choose only good."

Few choose evil for themselves knowing it will have the consequences evil brings.

I disagree with your thinking because unless we all have a very good chance of making the right choice, simply choosing is nothing to write home about. If you were, for instance, to choose God without any assistance from any outside source, just door 1 and door 2, would your choice be anything other than a mental coin-flip? No. So what good is that kind of choice? And what if there were a false god behind both doors? You'd still be extolling "free will" as some wonderful decision-maker.

The most significant moments in our lives for exercising this free will that people rave about on theology boards would be 1) finding God and salvation and 2) choosing moral actions over immoral actions--in other words, living as God would have us live.

And I submit that anyone who thinks that Man, dimmed by sin as he is, has the ability to make black vs white moral choices across the board or to choose which God to follow, if any, is only fooling himself--most likely because of pride, as I've said before. The same goes for lack of information or a pack of other factors that affect the decision-making process for every one of us. Yet, we like to think that we are the masters of our fate; and we do NOT like to think we are not entirely autonomous.

I also suggest that all we have to do in order to verify my point is look around at CF. This is a group of above-average people, when it comes to interest in theology and the Bible, etc. Yet there is hardly anything they agree upon. And you're telling us that making the moral choices in life or becoming a disciple of Christ is nothing more than exercising our free will?

No. That cannot be. Therefore, our connection to and acknowledge of God MJST be more a matter of God's doing than ours. Rationally speaking, that is the only conclusion, but let's not forget that it's also the Bible's witness.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I disagree with your point because unless we all have a very good chance of making the right choice, simply choosing is nothing to write home about. Yet the most significant moments in our lives for exercising this free will that people rave about on theology boards would be 1) finding God and salvation and 2) choosing moral actions over immoral actions--in other words, living as God would have us live.

But I submit that anyone who thinks that Man, dimmed by sin as he is, has the ability to make black vs white moral choices across the board or to choose which God to follow, if any, is only fooling himself--most likely because of pride, as I've said before. We like to think that we are the masters of our fate; and we do NOT like to think we are not entirely autonomous.

I also submit that all we have to do in order to verify my point is look around at CF. This is a group of above-average people, when it comes to interest in theology and the Bible, etc. Yet there is hardly anything they agree upon. And you're telling us that making the moral choices in life or becoming a disciple of Christ is nothing more than exercising our free will?

No. That cannot be. Therefore, our connection to and acknowledge of God MJST be more a matter of God's doing than ours. Rationally speaking, that is the only conclusion, but let's not forget that it's also the Bible's witness.

Again, "free will," doesn't mean making correct choices, but having the freedom to make a choice.

We are not puppets on strings controlled by God.

Jim

 

[LoAmmi]

Double post