The Existence of Freewill

[Davidnic]

I don't agree with Satre but No Exit was a good play

 

[Simon_Templar]

I don't. I can't seem to view free will as some great gift. It seems to me that the absence of freewill, with each person forced to worship God the way God wants them to during this finite existence would be a much more merciful gift.

Except for the fact that without free will you wouldn't even be a person. You'd be a sock puppet of God.

 

[MikeK]

Except for the fact that without free will you wouldn't even be a person. You'd be a sock puppet of God.

Wouldn't that be awesome though? To be like God, and without a chance of damnation? I like being able to make choices, but I like no being tortured for eternity even more.

 

[Davidnic]

I think Mike that Hell is not easy to get to. From some of your posts it seems like you think it is. We can not walk blindly into Hell. It is an act of choice. And there is the Divine Mercy. Hell takes a full consent of the will to reject God.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Wouldn't that be awesome though? To be like God, and without a chance of damnation? I like being able to make choices, but I like no being tortured for eternity even more.

You wouldn't be like God... you wouldn't BE at all.

 

[Simon_Templar]

There are really two different questions that people could be referring to as free-will.

In Calvinist/Reformed tradition, building upon Augustine and Aquinas the argument of free-will is very limited, referring really only to the question of salvation and knowing God.

In a more broad philosophical/Scientific sense, the question of free-will vs determinism is about the nature of existence and the universe, and it covers every aspect of life and being. Are any of your choices actually free, or are they all the product of an inevitable chain of cause and effect.

Which one are you asking about?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Appearing to have something and having something are two entirely different things.

The problem lies with the fact that, as was already said, everything besides God is a second cause. I am arguing that everything about us, including our intellect, is determined by causes before it. Because we are ultimately the product of causes, our decision making power is ultimately predetermined. How we think is caused by causes before us, out of our control.

You make a good point. Just because I think I'm calling the shots doesn't mean that I am.

In lab tests, when subjects were asked to make decisions that involve making a choice between two options, each time they made a decision, just before they made it they saw activity in the brain that would indicate which choice they would make. As I recall, they tried things like getting them to quick change their minds at the last minute, but even when they thought they were changing their minds, their brain activity measurements were still a reliable indicator over which way they'd go.

This is something atheists like to say. They say how can we have free will if the decision is made before we even know we've made it?

Which is a really good point, but afa I'm concerned, there could be a subconscious free-will decision that "delivers" its choice to the conscious, in which case it is still our own natures that are guiding the decisions.

The issue of prior causes, however, is why I think Jesus could forgive them for not knowing. For not knowing what? That they were killing an innocent man, and thus violating the law? They knew that. Apparently Jesus was giving them credit for something else other than just the result of the outward choice they ultimately made. Therein lie our prior causes. If we had no prior causes and consciously and with full knowledge and intent kill God, I don't think Jesus would have said the part about "not knowing what they do."

This is important to me because the atheist argument suggested that the absence of truly "free" (shall I say "uncaused") will, is a red flag for religion that needs free will, for in order for punishment to work, we must have free will -- or something like that, I don't know. They suggested that just as a person might go berserk and kill somebody because of a brain tumor, they may do the same because of their particular DNA, upbringing, circumstances, etc. And I don't really see a reason to dispute that to save Christianity, because I think if you take Jesus's inner teachings into account, they don't even address "free will" in a philosophical sense but in a more pragmatic sense IMO.

Alan

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think you miss the point of the problems of predestination. Predestination as a theological philosophy logically then progresses into double-predestination and so forth. So, would we have no chance of damnation? No way! In fact, a vast amount of the Earth, possibly you or I, would have NO CHANCE of heaven! Think about it....predestination can go both ways. That's what election is all about. Think, Mike. What if you're not elected!? Then you're predestined to suffer and be damned. Not sure that sounds as tasty as you might think!

Wouldn't that be awesome though? To be like God, and without a chance of damnation? I like being able to make choices, but I like no being tortured for eternity even more.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Regarding behavior based on prior causes:

 

[Needing_Grace]

Right. That's a gift I never asked for. I did not ask to be created, and I don't think I would have elected to be created into a finite life on an imperfect planet with a possibility of eternal torture to follow.

Thank you.

I've been thinking for a while that Christianity is really, really sad. What is the one absolute thing that every human faces as a reality?

Eternal hellfire.

Salvation is only a possibility and an infinitesimally small possibility at that.

It's almost like existence is a trap.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Why do you say we have an infinitesimal chance of heaven? We were born for heaven, not perdition. God loves us, gave Himself for us, and shook the pillars of Hades ransoming us from the pit. Christ didn't come at such a high cost and go through so much for nine people to make it to heaven.

The Orthodox view of hell is much like what we hear from many of the Fathers....we make our own hell, NG. Hell is a prison with the locks on the inside, not the outside from the Lord.

Before the foundation of the universe existed God's uncreated light. It is something talked about more in Holy Orthodoxy than in Catholicism. But the uncreated Light is important because it pre-existed the universe itself and in the afterlife, we stand before God's uncreated Light. That light can do one of two things: warm us like a nice crackling fire on a winter's day, or it can burn. Those who have cultivated a love for God and a willingness to walk with him, are warmed. Those who resist and hate God, who struggle against Him, those who don't want him, they feel the burning. It is a burning they have chosen.

Hellfire is a possibility, but not the only destination as you propose. God made you to be with Him, not with the Prince of Lies, NG.

I like your name--Needing Grace. Don't we all!

Christ doesn't call you to be absolutely perfect. He calls you to stay in the race. Think of the Pauline language and imagery of the marathon. We don't have to win the race, just stay in it. You'll fall. You go to confession and GET UP! You'll stumble many times, but you get up and keep running with the Lord......

Pray. Fast. Quit thinking in terms of despair. You know the sin of despair is a terrible sin. It is horrendous. Confess it, and start anew! The Lord LOVES YOU, period!

Thank you.

I've been thinking for a while that Christianity is really, really sad. What is the one absolute thing that every human faces as a reality?

Eternal hellfire.

Salvation is only a possibility and an infinitesimally small possibility at that.

It's almost like existence is a trap.

 

[Needing_Grace]

I think Mike that Hell is not easy to get to. From some of your posts it seems like you think it is. We can not walk blindly into Hell. It is an act of choice. And there is the Divine Mercy. Hell takes a full consent of the will to reject God.

According to my understanding of Christianity, it is incredibly easy to end up in hell. It doesn't take much...a momentary lapse of judgement and you could be crispy critters.

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

According to my understanding of Christianity, it is incredibly easy to end up in hell. It doesn't take much...a momentary lapse of judgement and you could be crispy critters.

Says who? Visions from a few saints?

I'd be curious to ask them about those saints who were murders, criminals before the Church deemed them in possession a high degree of holiness?

 

[Michie]

Regarding behavior based on prior causes:

Ah Calvin & Hobbes...my fave!

 

[Needing_Grace]

Says who? Visions from a few saints?

I'd be curious to ask them about those saints who were murders, criminals before the Church deemed them in possession a high degree of holiness?

No. I put little stock in private revelations. We have the Scriptures, which gives us plenty of information...for example:

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Luke 13:24
Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

No. I put little stock in private revelations. We have the Scriptures, which gives us plenty of information...for example:

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Luke 13:24
Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Where's the momentary lapse in judgement?

I'm seeing people think you have to truly be blessed or receive some form of God's grace to truly be with Him; I don't.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Wow.

Ok, hell - and i will agree with David - is a choice.

Here's how - when we know what is a mortal sin - but make the choice
to do it without contrition - then we made our choice.

When we dont want God - we made our choice. [Atheism]

God doesnt force us to cooperate - BUT - if you refuse Him
both wanting to be with Him or even He Himself - you made
that choice.

At Judgment - it goes like this - you die with a mortal sin - you
die in atheism - rejecting Him - your soul sees all its sins against
His perfection and purity.

Think of it like this - think of an absolute beautiful pristine white.
Then think of black blotches being splattered on it. Not so pure now
is it..?

Ok, so our sins are the splotches that show up crystal clear against the
Pristine Pureness of the Lord and we 'see' all our sins.

Depending how black the splotches are - like say atheism - 'we' the soul
sees it is unworthy of His Presence and it is EXCRUCIATING to the soul
to be near Him.
So it flees to hell.
[Same with mortal sins]

I know in my heart what i mean - but how to explain it - well, give me your
feedback. Did this help?

 

[Irenaeus]

A tip of the hat to Gurney...

The Orthodox view of hell is much like what we hear from many of the Fathers....we make our own hell, NG. Hell is a prison with the locks on the inside, not the outside from the Lord.

That's been my point for a few posts. I agree with this wholeheartedly, and it can be found in the Catholic tradition as well.

 

[Davidnic]

According to my understanding of Christianity, it is incredibly easy to end up in hell. It doesn't take much...a momentary lapse of judgement and you could be crispy critters.

Not really. Hell requires mortal sin, which means full consent of the will, Serious matter and knowing full well it is a serious matter. Mortal sin requires our fundamental orientation is away from God and toward self deliberately. Now we can get there ignoring willfully what we should have known because it was shown to us and only our own arrogance or desire to not have to do what was right...only God can say really after a point. We can only guess. The way is narrow but not exclusive. It is narrow because we rebel, with rebel flesh, against the call to go through that gate because others are easier to walk.

The Church does not even guess at who may or may not be in hell, She just says when things are a danger that makes Hell possible. And though there are a lot of those...God is seeking for us so to go to Hell there must be the free willed rejection of Him. Now, that happens more. much more than we think. But not by accident. It can be by willful clueless behavior where someone knows but refuses to see what they are doing. But it does not happen by accident to a well meaning soul seeking God.

Hell happens, I would say, very often from arrogance or apathy or more aptly Acedia (spiritual sloth) and not from mistakes.

Like I said, Heaven is not an easy path but that does not mean one must walk it perfectly to get there; one must walk it infusing the life of God into their lives, and not infusing the death in the world as if it were life. God is merciful and just. A soul condemns itself to hell by the rejection of God. God knows if a heart is turned to Him or from Him. We do not.

None of this means we should ever say oh Hell is hard so I won't fear it. The devil can turn our heart to willful and complicit blindness when we enter that state.





Mortal sins are easier than some like to think and harder than many like to claim. There is a great danger in willful apathy, and obstinate rejection. But God is not waiting with a buzzer to be like: "You...done for!!" His mercy is far more vast than we believe; though it is not the boss of His Justice as many try to convince themselves.

At the end of the day it is not, from Catholic theology, easy to enter Hell if you are honestly seeking God. This does not mean people should not be vigilant against the subtle temptation that make us dull and dead to a fear of hell. There is a danger in thinking...well it wont happen to me. But there is also danger in thinking it is so easy and letting

 

[Needing_Grace]

Where's the momentary lapse in judgement?

Mortal sin can result from a momentary lapse of judgement. Mortal sin is really, really easy.

I'm seeing people think you have to truly be blessed or receive some form of God's grace to truly be with Him; I don't.

Thanks to Original Sin, yeah, that's kinda it. Jesus said so, too, "no one can come to Me unless the Father draw him" (John 6:65).