The Existence of Freewill

[Chany]

Does anyone on this board have a good philosophical answer that proves the existence of freewill? The answer has to be compatible with the Christian understanding of God. I have yet to find a valid argument for actual freewill.

 

[MikeK]

I don't. I can't seem to view free will as some great gift. It seems to me that the absence of freewill, with each person forced to worship God the way God wants them to during this finite existence would be a much more merciful gift.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

<deleted>

Alan

 

[Kurama]

I don't. I can't seem to view free will as some great gift. It seems to me that the absence of freewill, with each person forced to worship God the way God wants them to during this finite existence would be a much more merciful gift.

I believe free will is the cause of our mortal state.

God gave Adam and Eve the free will to eat from the Tree of Life. They chose death and thus Original Sin was conceived. I believe we still have that free will to choose death.

Not sure whether heaven has free will...not that it matters, God's presence will be more than mere words could describe.

 

[MikeK]

I believe free will is the cause of our mortal state.

Right. That's a gift I never asked for. I did not ask to be created, and I don't think I would have elected to be created into a finite life on an imperfect planet with a possibility of eternal torture to follow.

 

[Kurama]

Right. That's a gift I never asked for. I did not ask to be created, and I don't think I would have elected to be created into a finite life on an imperfect planet with a possibility of eternal torture to follow.

I think God gave it to us in the Garden of Eden. He allowed Adam and Eve to eat any fruit they found, except for the ones on the Tree of Life.

Hmmm various groups have wondered about this...the Mormons believe in pre-existence, the theory that we actually lived in heaven before but then lost our memories and wound up on earth (not sure whether we chose to go down to earth...it's Mormonism after all).

I don't think we chose to be born (though I could have lost my memory for all I know)...but isn't God's grace so great! The fact that we're alive now, have self-awareness and consciousness...makes suffering worth it! No need to question the Father almighty, He works in such mysterious ways...

 

[AMDG]

I have yet to find a valid argument for actual freewill.

Why does an argument have to exist at all? Why not simply accept that God gave us all freewill (and because of freewill, all nature also has "freewill")?

 

[AvilaSurfer]

I don't get this at all. With all the good and bad decisions made every day......I mean is this a joke?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I had a dog that was no fun for playing catch. I would throw the stick, and he would maintain steadfast focus on my hand, oblivious that the stick went across the yard.

Just sayin'...

 

[Michie]

*subscribing*

 

[Irenaeus]

There are very many philosophical arguments for free will. Some are good, some are bad. Through which avenue do you want to approach it?

 

[Chany]

There are very many philosophical arguments for free will. Some are good, some are bad. Through which avenue do you want to approach it?

A good one.

Alright, how are we defining free will? I would say a good definition is, "The ability for a rational being to use the intellect to decide particular action out of a choice of actions without the entirety of the choice being detemined by past causes."

My main issue is the bold part. Let me know if something is confusing.

 

[Chany]

*subscribing*

Would you prefer your updates over the internet or by telegraph? The telegraph might be faster, but it's up to you.

 

[Chrystal-J]

I would think the existence of heaven and hell are proof of free will (in a Christian context). If there was no free will--there would only be one or the other. It's our free will choices that determine where we go after judgment. Judgment might be another proof of free will. If we had no choice in what we do (and another determined our actions) then we'd have no need of judgment.
This is based on a belief in Christianity and all of it's tenets.

 

[Michie]

Would you prefer your updates over the internet or by telegraph? The telegraph might be faster, but it's up to you.

It's a good thing I like you.

 

[Irenaeus]

A good one.

Alright, how are we defining free will? I would say a good definition is, "The ability for a rational being to use the intellect to decide particular action out of a choice of actions without the entirety of the choice being detemined by past causes."

My main issue is the bold part. Let me know if something is confusing.

I have to hop down to see some people before the Vigil Mass tonight, but I would highly recommend to you the work of the atheist philosopher and neuroscientist Raymond Tallis, and his work "Aping Mankind," which has some very good defenses of good will.

No Catholic Theologian believes are free will is exercised independent of past causes. That is a contradiction in terms because we are beings of contingency, philosophically speaking. Mortal, human free will is exercised in the realm of secondary causality, not primary.

This is one reason why Dante once called art the "grandson of God," because while we are the Sons of God, we procreate, craft and build based upon causalities and occurrences that predate even our very existence. We are free in the context of a particular metaphysical instantiation that is called the here-and-now.

Let's keep talking about this! Because there are a lot of people, especially in neuroscience, who are trying to deny free will, with disastrous consequences to everything from law, art, medicine, and addiction therapy.

 

[Rubiks]

I have an argument for free will.

If there is no free will, than living a life would be like watching a movie or riding a rollercoaster

my 911st post :o

 

[WarriorAngel]

Does anyone on this board have a good philosophical answer that proves the existence of freewill? The answer has to be compatible with the Christian understanding of God. I have yet to find a valid argument for actual freewill.

Put it this way - we wouldnt be living separated from God - sinning and pulling weeds out of the garden.

 

[Albion]

I have an argument for free will.

If there is no free will, than living a life would be like watching a movie or riding a rollercoaster

Glad you mentioned that, because it's not what freewill is. The question really is this: can we understand God sufficiently to choose him on our own? Leave all that other stuff--what I'll have for breakfast, am I being moved like a puppet, etc aside. It's misleading.

 

[MKJ]

Does anyone on this board have a good philosophical answer that proves the existence of freewill? The answer has to be compatible with the Christian understanding of God. I have yet to find a valid argument for actual freewill.

I do not think there really is an argument that is a proof.

What you can do is suggest what the implications of arguing either position would be.

many people do not like the implications of no free will. For example, no immorality - no human action would be either moral or immoral, any more than what a dog does is moral or immoral. And it would be totally pointless to argue about free will if we have no free will.