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I find the idea that you equate the sacred Hebrew texts of Israel's written history with fairies, leprechauns and santa clause, quite offensive and disrespectful.
How did the brain evolve and how did intelligence arise from mindless natural processes? If physical traits, those that would aid an organism to survive, how did a brain as an unplanned and unguided outcome develop as the "thinking" and processing organ it is?
I don't follow.For logic to be a product of man, this type of recognition would not be "observed" which is what man made logic would require.
Evolution of behavior would still produce it - there simply needs to be some life around to interact and evolve. It doesn't matter if that life is created supernaturally or not, so long as no pre-made supernatural morality is inserted into it. I submit that behavior, intelligence, and eventually concepts of morality would still evolve.So if not a naturalistic origin what would be the origins? If not from evolution then from what would it arise and if evolution how does it arise when intelligence and logic must be present first.
As opposed to what? I can't accept this supernatural realm exists until I have good reason to think that it does. Why would I?Exactly, because your own worldview rests in the naturalistic realm.
Those all make my point for me - what does God care what a 'perfect amount of water to provide the needs of the planet' is? He could make the planet 'work' regardless of how much water it has. He could make life 'work' miraculously regardless of what state the planet or the universe is in. Yet the world turns with no evident miraculous requirements for its turning.Actually it isn't. There are many, many elements in our universe that are not satisfactorily explained by ToE or explained by science. The evolution of intelligence...of the brain for that matter. Why do we accept that a mindless unguided process provided the means for our intelligence? Why do we accept that the fine tuning needed to allow life on our planet just happens to be that way? Why the earth has the perfect amount of water to provide the needs of the planet. The list goes on and on. You claim that it is exactly as it would need to be in the absence of such a being when in fact, I claim it couldn't be without Him.
Not sure what you mean here by the 'weight of one grain of sand.'The rock is one element. The fine tuning is a wide swath of elements that are so precise that accidental has been ruled out by scientists themselves. That is why they are trying to find a unified theory to explain it all. One element just one like your example of the fine tuning is that if the weight of one grain of sand either heavier or lighter would have made our universe impossible to exist. The weight of one grain of sand! That is precise.
And that goes both ways of course - a feeling is not fact, whatever you feel is the source of it may be, however strongly you feel that it comes from something other than yourself.Right.
As I said, I think there are certain truths about how people interact.That is a mathematical reality, an objective reality. You are claiming that morality is not.
See above. I'm under no obligation to accept that someone who thinks 2 + 2 = 5 might have a point.What we see is that evolved morality is not objective in your view, yet you see that there is an objective right and wrong.
We can discover truths about how people interact, and come to objective conclusions about the best way to do so.Can a person know the heart and mind of another? By heart I mean intent. Do we know the objective truth of evil and good? If we have evolved morality we can't.
Oh, I don't need a reason to do that. I do it all the time, just because it can be interesting to think about. If you're asking whether or not I've ever had some kind of experience that made me consider the existence of deities, then no, I haven't. I've heard a few stories about other people having them, but they're never that impressive or convincing.Have you had any reason to question whether or not you are wrong?
I thought I was clear, I think morality is a construct of human ideas - it wouldn't exist prior to us becoming intelligent enough to develop it. Behavior and interactions that provide the basis for it wouldn't exist before life was around to behave and interact.You would still need to provide a way morality could arise from evolution prior to intelligence and logic, how that arose by a mindless unguided process and why one thing would be more moral than another.
I don't buy that - the idea that we can consciously choose what to believe in. If I could, I'd believe a lot of things that weren't real, just because they made me happy, and I'd simply ignore any evidence that I was wrong. If I choose to wholly believe something that isn't true, how could I ever tell I was wrong? I'd be utterly convinced of something that wasn't true.Which if He did, He would not be allowing you the choice. He won't do that without you asking for it. If you really wanted to know, and you know how sincerely you could ask, He then would be allowed to show you.
Wow.But if you are like most naturalists, you don't want to know because then you would be like me wouldn't you. Going against the grain, being ridiculed for ignorance and being mocked. So it is easier to just claim that if evidence for His existence just happens to fall in your lap you would certainly accept it, while feeling secure that won't happen because you wouldn't want it to.
I find the idea that you equate the sacred Hebrew texts of Israel's written history with fairies, leprechauns and santa clause, quite offensive and disrespectful.
I find the idea that you equate the sacred Hebrew texts of Israel's written history with fairies, leprechauns and santa clause, quite offensive and disrespectful.
Nice straw....
The 'equating' between those beliefs is the manner by which people claim to come to their understanding.....ie, through faith, which by definition is the acceptance of a concept without evidence....
By that measure, the belief in gods, fairies and leprechauns is EXACTLY THE SAME....!
Personally, I am not asking for proof or to be "convinced". For starters, I just want to see some evidence, something testable, that could show that these religious claims I hear about (gods/spirits/supernatural/afterlife) are not simply imaginary constructs institutionalized....
Which if He did, He would not be allowing you the choice. He won't do that without you asking for it.An all-knowing deity would certainly know how to convince me, however.
That could simply end up as an exercise in self-deception, not an exploration of reality.If you really wanted to know, and you know how sincerely you could ask, He then would be allowed to show you.
How do you know how most naturalists think?But if you are like most naturalists,
I want to know as many true things as possible, and as few untrue things as possible. I am not here to simply reinforce existing presuppositions.you don't want to know because then you would be like me wouldn't you.
You have made some not-insubstantial knowledge claims, and when pressed to substantiate those claims you trot of arguments that amount to seeing bunnies in clouds, arguments from popularity, arguments from ignorance, and false dichotomies.Going against the grain, being ridiculed for ignorance and being mocked.
Telling "naturalists" how they think now? Let me add straw-man arguments to that above list.So it is easier to just claim that if evidence for His existence just happens to fall in your lap you would certainly accept it, while feeling secure that won't happen because you wouldn't want it to.
I think we've discussed the eyewitness evidence already. So there is evidence.
Gee...don't do anything radical like going and finding the information yourself....!!
Evolution of Nervous Systems - 9780123708786|ScienceDirect.com
The origin and evolution of the nervous - PubMed Mobile
http://www.ijdb.ehu.es/web/descarga/paper/14756331
More than enough to get started...
Now...would you like me to read it for you as well...!?
I find it quite humorous that you and others always claim that I haven't the required information prior to asking a question. I don't ask questions to acquire information, I ask question to determine whether or not the person I am conversing with knows the required information.
The first link you give me is an article that I would have to pay for,
Ah...so yours isn't a search for knowledge, as I had foolishly hoped....it's just a search for 'gotcha' opportunities.....how sad.....how pathetic....
Which is just what I did......not prepared to spend a few bucks to enhance your knowledge....? Oh, that's right...you've already got all the answers, I forgot...!
By the way....how are we going with the KNOWLEDGE about all those people who not only believe in, but also claim "experience" with, fairies and leprechauns...?
You are so transparent. I wonder if you realize that?
You would still need to provide a way morality could arise from evolution prior to intelligence and logic, how that arose by a mindless unguided process and why one thing would be more moral than another.
Trust me, it's not. I am very concerned about believing things that are not true though, so I'm cautious about accepting superstition or personal testimony that I cannot verify or experience for myself. An all-knowing deity would certainly know how to convince me, however.
Which if He did, He would not be allowing you the choice. He won't do that without you asking for it. If you really wanted to know, and you know how sincerely you could ask, He then would be allowed to show you. But if you are like most naturalists, you don't want to know because then you would be like me wouldn't you. Going against the grain, being ridiculed for ignorance and being mocked. So it is easier to just claim that if evidence for His existence just happens to fall in your lap you would certainly accept it, while feeling secure that won't happen because you wouldn't want it to.
It doesn't seem to bother Satan, he obviously still has free will and he's not afraid of God.What rot......how would the knowledge that a god definitely existed violate one's free will.....?
Ah...so yours isn't a search for knowledge, as I had foolishly hoped....it's just a search for 'gotcha' opportunities.....how sad.....how pathetic....
Which is just what I did......not prepared to spend a few bucks to enhance your knowledge....? Oh, that's right...you've already got all the answers, I forgot...!
By the way....how are we going with the KNOWLEDGE about all those people who not only believe in, but also claim "experience" with, fairies and leprechauns...?
Why...?
What rot......how would the knowledge that a god definitely existed violate one's free will.....?
It doesn't seem to bother Satan, he obviously still has free will and he's not afraid of God.
Everything I see, read and hear about Christianity tells me it's a load of poppycock.
What I realise is that, like a few others here, you are running at breakneck speed AWAY from the questions that have been raised......where are your answers about the questions of morality raised here...? Where are your answers about the faulty epistemology that bases itself on faith...? Why do you avoid these and prefer to personally attack instead...?
I wonder.....
It doesn't seem to bother Satan, he obviously still has free will and he's not afraid of God.
Everything I see, read and hear about Christianity tells me it's a load of poppycock.
Because according to Christians he can do what ever he wants without God being able or willing to stop him,what makes you think that he isn't afraid of God?
Not unguided - natural selection can provide guidance to development. It doesn't need to be conscious to do this.
Having a nervous system that reacts to stimuli is a useful survival tool - you can avoid predators and find prey. It need only be very simple at first - like the most primitive form of eyes are just clusters of cells that are more sensitive to light than others.
I don't follow.
Evolution of behavior would still produce it - there simply needs to be some life around to interact and evolve. It doesn't matter if that life is created supernaturally or not, so long as no pre-made supernatural morality is inserted into it. I submit that behavior, intelligence, and eventually concepts of morality would still evolve.
As opposed to what? I can't accept this supernatural realm exists until I have good reason to think that it does. Why would I?
Those all make my point for me - what does God care what a 'perfect amount of water to provide the needs of the planet' is? He could make the planet 'work' regardless of how much water it has. He could make life 'work' miraculously regardless of what state the planet or the universe is in. Yet the world turns with no evident miraculous requirements for its turning.
Not sure what you mean here by the 'weight of one grain of sand.'
Are you saying that if mass didn't work as we understand it, you believe God could not have created anything?
And that goes both ways of course - a feeling is not fact, whatever you feel is the source of it may be, however strongly you feel that it comes from something other than yourself.
As I said, I think there are certain truths about how people interact.
See above. I'm under no obligation to accept that someone who thinks 2 + 2 = 5 might have a point.
We can discover truths about how people interact, and come to objective conclusions about the best way to do so.
Oh, I don't need a reason to do that. I do it all the time, just because it can be interesting to think about. If you're asking whether or not I've ever had some kind of experience that made me consider the existence of deities, then no, I haven't. I've heard a few stories about other people having them, but they're never that impressive or convincing.
I thought I was clear, I think morality is a construct of human ideas - it wouldn't exist prior to us becoming intelligent enough to develop it. Behavior and interactions that provide the basis for it wouldn't exist before life was around to behave and interact.
I don't buy that - the idea that we can consciously choose what to believe in. If I could, I'd believe a lot of things that weren't real, just because they made me happy, and I'd simply ignore any evidence that I was wrong. If I choose to wholly believe something that isn't true, how could I ever tell I was wrong? I'd be utterly convinced of something that wasn't true.
I'm either going to be convinced of something's existence or remain unconvinced - I can't just choose different, and wouldn't even if I could.
Wow.
That's pretty funny and not just a little condescending, too - that I hold my conclusions not because I've reached them through study and careful consideration, but because I'm scared of getting my feelings bruised by all the big stinky atheists out there and their hurtful remarks. While I'm sure being called a moron on the internet is no picnic, I got past reacting to that level of invective long ago.
But enough about that - since you brought it up, let's shed our illusions about which side gets the worst of this, shall we?
The worst thing the average atheist can say to you is, yes, that you're stupid. You're fooling yourself. Your cherished beliefs are wrong. You're not using your brain.
That's nothing compared to the sentiment leveled against atheists by theists, which they must believe - we're vile, worthless, unspeakably awful creatures. Guilty of the worst possible crime imaginable just by existing. I'm worse than a serial-killer, worse than a rapist or a child-molester - their crime could be forgiven at death, but mine won't. There's nothing I can do to make up for it, nothing I can do in life that truly matters in the face of it - none of the happiness and contentment I bring my family and loved ones and people matter, nor any of my achievements or the good will I strive to spread - it's all worthless filth... in the eyes of the only Person who's opinion ever matters. I'm just so rotten and awful and so damned evil when compared to this Guy that I deserve the worst thing that could ever be done to anyone ever - eternal imprisonment in a place where I'll never stop screaming.
I cannot imagine the circumstances wherein I would come to believe the above about you, or anyone.
As a Christian, you must believe it about me, and everyone.
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