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I can't worship someone out of fear. That makes God sound extremely petty, and if that is how God behaves, then perhaps I shouldn't be a Christian.
No, perhaps you should be pagan? Would you feel better if you knew that by animal sacrifices He wouldn't any longer be angry with you for your sins? At least for a day anyhow.
My dear, God does not hate you, you have NO REASON to fear Him at all in anyway what-so-ever. He adores and practically worships you. Though He is distant. You probably just about make out what His whispers are saying.
I'm actually vegetarian.... so no animal sacrifices for me.
Well, if we are to worship God out of fear then yes, I should have something to fear from Him.
Otherwise it would be His love and kindness that we are to worship Him.
If He adores and worships us, why threaten us with death?!
That just looks like He doesn't really care what happens.
## That sort of behaviour is found in dictatorships - it has nothing to do w/ God. Robespierre was "the sea-green incorruptible" - that did not interfere w. his propensity for separating the heads of "the enemies of the revolution" from the bodies that accompanied them. A puritanical dictator is anything but an impossibility. Hitler was a clean-living person. Examples could probably be multiplied.there are many reasons in the OT why people were stoned
touching Mount Sinai - Exodus 19:13
taking "accursed things" - Joshua 7:1-26
cursing or blaspheming - Leviticus 24:16
adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough) - Deuteronomy 22:23-24
animals (like an ox that gores a human) - Exodus 21:28
a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night - Deuteronomy 22:13-21
worshipping other gods - Deuteronomy 13:5-10; 17:2-5,
disobeying parents - Deuteronomy 21:18-21
witches and wizards - Leviticus 20:27
giving your children to Molech Leviticus 20:2
breaking the Sabbath - Numbers 15:32-56
cursing the king - 1 Kings 21:10
But the OT is not today and you can't compare the two wondering why we can be so civilized today yet in the OT they seemed barbaric.
1. Don't think we are so civilized today and 2. The OT was a time that called for the people of God to be set aside from all others and to uphold the highest standards. corruption, even on the smallest level, was dealt with harshly to ensure God's people would be able to preserve themselves.
## Stalin was not averse to the occasional well-judged severity either. The argument you're using is immoral, because it depends on the false principle that the means justifies the end. It would have been better for Israel to have disappeared, than for it to have to have been built on harshness in the way described - the stability of OT Israel is not worth such a moral price.If the "rules" weren't there and they weren't dealt with harshly then people would find ways to exploit them and the nation of Israel would have disappeared.
## That is an excellent reason for persecuting Protestants in Catholic countriesWe tend to hold life as the most precious thing in the universe but in reality it is but a drop in an ocean; we cannot escape death except through the return of Jesus. Certainly people in the OT could not escape death (except of course Enoch) I don't know what happened to the people who were stoned in the OT and if or how they were forgiven. But if they remained alive there presence would have infected Israel form the inside out and destroyed them.
## "Necessity, the tyrant's plea"I will leave the judging up to God as I'm sure there were people who were stoned and legitimately sought forgiveness but it is something that had to be done
## If so, it's a bit much for Christians today to complain of the Inquisitions. The Chinese would also appreciate that argument: shooting Christians through the back of the head does get rid of them in a "most effective way".and was a legitimate and common practice in that culture and time. For that day it was not considered cruel and usually punishment it was the most effective way of killing someone.
## We can murder one another then ? Surely not - for what is the Love of God worth, if it has no effect on how we behave to one another ? If it is inactive or quiescent, it might as well not be talked about, for in such circumstances it means no more than the Love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. God is not able in such circumstances to rebuke us for not showing by our deeds that or words have meaning - we may be hypocrites for failing to match deeds to words, but God is the Arch-Hypocrite, if His Love does nor affect how we are treated on earth. Such a God needs to cure Himself before rebuking Christians.The love of God has nothing to do with how we are treated here on earth.
## If stoning in Iran today is barbaric, how is stoning in ancient Israel not barbaric ? Maybe the Taleban were basically = ancient Israel, but in the 20th century. After all, Joshua basically = Hitler, in ancient Israelite garb. If Hitler is not a Saint, why is Joshua ? Conversely, what possible objection can there be to Saint Adolf Hitler, when Joshua is honoured as a Saint & hero rather than rejected as a savage ? As for Joshua the type of Christ, Joshua is more a type of Antichrist, for he did deeds worthy of Antichrist. The good thing about events in Iran & Afghanistan is that they reveal the misery & evil & cruelty that the so-called heroes of the OT must, if their exploits have any historical reality, have perpetrated. It is all too easy to be dazzled by the veneer of piety in which their crimes are narrated - the OT would have its readers ignore the fact that those who are so briefly dismissed as "evil" or "idolaters" or the like we human beings. Instead of being so taken w/ the Israelites, it's time the OT's readers had some sympathy for the peoples they raped, murdered, exterminated, & plundered.If I lived in Iran today I could be stoned for very much of the same reasons as the Israelites were in the OT. We all need to submit to the law that is over us and if we do not we may suffer the consequences no matter how harsh or unjust they are. God's love is about his forgiveness however the ultimate purpose is not so we live a long life on earth it is so we join God in fullness and that is what forgiveness does. Those people in the OT who were stoned may have still partook in the grace of Jesus Christ.
## These days, rulers do not justify their political decisions theologically. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, wars of expansion or self-defence, raids and expeditions to "pacify" rebellions were thought of as undertaken because the national god or gods wanted this - they were justified theologically. Political authority was sacred, divine - as w/ the Papacy it still is; Popes are priest-kings. Only later than OT world is power "secularised". In Assyria, the crime of rebellion was not conceptualised as a crime, but as sin. It was a sin against the true King of Assyria, the god Asshur. That being so, His deputy & priest the king of Assyria had to avenge it: he was the "weapon of the great gods" in doing so. This is perhaps why the Assyrians have a reputation for great cruelty - they may have considered that great crimes/sins like rebellion deserved to be punished w/ the greatest possible severity.Yes, the time was different and stoning does still happen in some countries. I know that. But, how can you put faith in God when He has said you should be killed for the things you may have done? That's what I find difficult.
## He sent Jesus to take the medicine He had insisted others must take. God obeys His own Law, completely - unlike human law-givers, who sometimes put themselves above their own laws. God is not like that. On the Cross, Jesus becomes sin, & becomes accursed. (See Deuteronomy 21:23.) He fulfils the Law, because His Death satisfies it - so those who are His, cannot be hurt by it, as it has no claim on them. It brought death, but He cancels it out, & brings Life in its steadI'm not trying to cause a debate, I just want to try and get my faith back to where it was, but this is one thing that is stopping it.
I want to trust in God, but always feel that He would say that I should be killed for my sins. Did He send Jesus to stop that killing, or should that still be part of it?
That response does not help at all. Not everyone can just push a button and immediately accept and understand everything in the bible, which is why they ask questions.
## Of course you aren't - nobody possibly could be, nor ever will beYeah, that's what I have difficulty with.
How can I out my trust and faith in God, when any minute He culd decide I am not worthy
## If someone lives as a Christian should, he is one, whether he knows of God or not. If a Christian does the works of the devil, he will be rewarded according to his anti-Christian works. See further: C.S. Lewis, The Last Battle.and destroy me. Or destroy someone who is kind, loving, caring and gentle - but just isn't a Christian.
## But look where the logic of this leadsThe truth is that He is the potter and we are His creation. Even if we wouldn't have sinned, still, He literally owns us. Who could say that He does something wrong? Doesn't He define what is wrong and what is good anyway?
## To paraphrase C. S. Lewis:And aren't we His? If I would have created something, that something is mine and I can do whatever I wish with it. If I would have written a book, I could just as well destroy it, whether it is well written or with big errors; it is mine and I can do whatever I wish with it.
## I get very miffed when this machine doesn't work, but I don't (if I think about it) hold it morally accountable. God holds us morally accountable - which is not fair, if we are machines; for machines are not greater than the sum of their parts; they are not alive. We are, & that makes all the difference imaginable. And we are made in God's image - but cannot transmit this to pieces of machinery. We have liberty - machines do not. And no machine has the capacity for communion w/ God - but man has no meaning or point w/o that communion. That is why sin is disastrous - it is a complete denial of the very purpose for which each of us has been created.So even if we wouldn't have sinned, He owns us, thus He can do whatever He wishes. But of course, He is even more justified by the fact that we sinned. We are a machine that simply doesn't do what it is supposed to do. Shouldn't we actually be amazed that He was so patient with His imperfect working machines? Would you be so kind to a creation of yours that literally disobeys every commandment of yours?
God is perfect - we are not. So the compsarison fails.You put time and effort to create something good, like you wanted it, you gave it everything it needs and more, and yet it directly disobeys you, and even insults you. Would you be so patient?
## One: where is Christ in all thisSo, in both cases, He is still justified for we are His, as the Psalms say: "The Earth is the LORD's, and all its fullness. The world and those who dwell therein." (Psalms 21:1). Any more questions?
But even if He'd own us in the 'second way', would you say that He does something wrong if He just wants to eliminate us and start all over again, or not start at all, hypothetically speaking?## To paraphrase C. S. Lewis:
"This teddy bear is mine" can mean:
or it can mean:
- 1. "This teddy bear belongs to me, & I will pull it to pieces if that is what I want to do to it"
God does own us, but not in that first way. His ownership is expressed as self-sacrificing Love. Q.E.D. We are, in a sense, God's teddy bears. Children give life to their soft toys by spending time w/ them, playing w/ them, & most of all, by loving them enough to give them individuality - & that is a small scale version of what God does for us.
- 2. "This teddy bear belongs to me, so I will love it very much & take very good care of it & not let any harm come to it"
I didn't expect you to go that far. You have to know when the allegory stops. There is nothing I can compare it, God's creation (us), with something we created, so this is why I put a machine. We never created anything similar to what God made, so I couldn't make a comparison. But if it helps you, let's just say we are living machines.## I get very miffed when this machine doesn't work, but I don't (if I think about it) hold it morally accountable. God holds us morally accountable - which is not fair, if we are machines; for machines are not greater than the sum of their parts; they are not alive. We are, & that makes all the difference imaginable. And we are made in God's image - but cannot transmit this to pieces of machinery. We have liberty - machines do not. And no machine has the capacity for communion w/ God - but man has no meaning or point w/o that communion. That is why sin is disastrous - it is a complete denial of the very purpose for which each of us has been created.
Who do you think the "LORD" is in that verse?## One: where is Christ in all this?
Yeah, that's what I have difficulty with.
How can I out my trust and faith in God, when any minute He culd decide I am not worthy and destroy me. Or destroy someone who is kind, loving, caring and gentle - but just isn't a Christian.
yeh mang, no point cherry coating it. The situation is, your a mere mortal and God is running the show. You just gotta do what he says or else..... theres no real other options then to do what God wants otherwise you pay for it with your life! when i put it like that it sounds like a pain, lol thats coz it is
People end up killing themselves actually. Are you familiar with "cause and effect"? There are consequences to the things we do; they can be bad or good.I can't be worshipping someone out of fear. If you say to a child/ animal or even adult - do this or I will hurt you/ kill you if would be very wrong and you would be hated for it. Yet, God can say the same thing - do this or I will send you to Hell.
I struggle to see God's love when He says if you don't do every single thing I say, I will kill you. I can't see myself continuing to worship Him, when He can and will just destroy who He wants and disguises it by saying He loves us all so much. If He did, He shouldn't go around killing people..
People end up killing themselves actually. Are you familiar with "cause and effect"? There are consequences to the things we do; they can be bad or good.
If someone would say to you: don't jump off the building because you'll die if you will, can you say the law of gravity is guilty for that person dying or that his friend is guilty for warning him?
He has already given you enough reasons to worship Him. The decision rests on you. He has already shown His love. Can you say He could have improved His 'demonstration' of His love? If so, give an example.
What do you think leukemia exists?There are consequences to our actions, yes. But, what about the child who dies of leukaemia, or is kidnapped? What did they do to cause that?
That was something called "allegory". I'll take your example. There is the commandment to love. We don't love. The world doesn't love according to God's plan. And as I said, there are consequences for not loving. Just look at the world. The case above: why was the kid kidnapped? Because someone showed a lack of love.That's different. God is giving us laws for who to love and how to love them, not preventing us from jumping to our deaths.
There is another thing He loves too: "For I, the LORD, love justice" (Isaiah 61:8). It is also written: "You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil" (Psalms 5:4).His love was sending Jesus?
If He loves us, why kill us?
That was something called "allegory".
He doesn't love evil, and this is what we are: evil.
Wouldn't Him let the murderer escape, rapist go unpunished and wicked flee from justice actually be the worst thing He could do? But yet there is a judgment, and there they will all be punished, and yes, a lot will be killed on that day (His coming).
You can't just simply take one of His attributes and make Him that attribute. He loves us but He also loves justice and hate sin.
Yes you are a sinner, children of wrath. But the same God who knows you trough Jesus gave us the means to get born again, not as a sinner, but as a son of God; not with a sinful nature but a righteous one.A God who believes I am evil, isn't really a God that I want to get to know.
Why? I label all of the as sinners.You cannot put a liar, adulterer, gay person, unmarried mother, into the same category as murderers and rapists. Yes, the latter should be punished, but very, very differently to the former.
Kill who? Kill what? Why is killing bad?I cannot see how if He loves us, He would kill.
No, it is not.If a mother kills her child, because they are ill or might turn out bad, or is saving them from themselves, and she believes it's the right decision - is that okay?
So what He did is not enough to you?There would have been many better ways for God to show His love for us.
So what should He do? Hide the truth? Isn't it true that sin leads to death? Isn't it also true that the whole world abides in sin? Then, as a logical conclusion, isn't it true that if the world persists in sin it will finally die?I'm not saying He doesn't, I believe He does, but using death as a threat isn't loving at all in my opinion.
Why do you think that person would turn away from God?You could have a priest - spending all of his life dedicated to God and a lovely, kind person, who turns away from God at the end of his life, and is then considered evil by God and sentenced to eternal death.
And why would this 'threat' be bad? Isn't it true that not all ways lead to life? Isn't it also true that God wants us to abandon those ways and live? Isn't it logical for God to warn us about the ways that lead to death and point to the One that leads to life?I always ignored it before, but I've realised that my church would use it as a threat - saying you have to do this or that, because otherwise you will be cast into Hell. I really don't think I can stay a Christian.
Yes you are a sinner, children of wrath.
Is it wrong that He wants to change you from being 'evil' to being righteous? Because this is His intent, and His motivation is love.
So tell me: why would you not wanna know a God who thinks you are bad, yes, but that also provided the means for you to stop being a worker of iniquity and to become good, righteous, born of Him?
Why? I label all of the as sinners.
And who are you to decide what is a just punishment and what is not?
Kill who? Kill what? Why is killing bad?
So tell me: why doesn't God have the right to kill (us)?
So what He did is not enough to you?
So what should He do? Hide the truth? Isn't it true that sin leads to death? Isn't it also true that the whole world abides in sin? Then, as a logical conclusion, isn't it true that if the world persists in sin it will finally die?
Therefore if God says that if you do not believe you will die, is He saying this as a threat or out of love, because He doesn't want us to die? The truth is that He is telling it out of love. He loves us. He doesn't want us to die.
Explain please how is Him warning us about the dangers of our 'ways' being hateful of Him? Why is Him warning us that we will die if we persist in our works wrong and a demonstration of hate (if it isn't one of love, it is one of hate, isn't it?)?
Why do you think that person would turn away from God?
And why would this 'threat' be bad? Isn't it true that not all ways lead to life? Isn't it also true that God wants us to abandon those ways and live? Isn't it logical for God to warn us about the ways that lead to death and point to the One that leads to life?
Why does this idea disturb you? Please give your opinion.
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