• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The 'evil' in the Old Testament

Status
Not open for further replies.

.Iona.

I love Jesus!
Dec 9, 2007
3,175
674
UK
✟50,506.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
UK-Greens
The main thing that I struggle with is the acts in the Old Testament - the stoning, the murder etc. How could God have condoned that?

I do believe in Jesus and what he came to earth to do, and I know that with Him came the New Testament, but we can't ignore the OT. I find it difficult to accept and even explain to people why I would worship a God, who allowed, or even instructed for people to be killed. I guess Leviticus is a good example of what I mean.

'Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed' (Leviticus 20:9)

'If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die'. (Leviticus 20:10).

'Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community'. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

I know Jesus is good, but the OT confuses me. Why would the God who sent Jesus to save us, the good God who loves us, allow and instruct people to kill and murder others?
 

onemorequestion

Well-Known Member
Jun 27, 2010
1,463
44
✟1,978.00
Faith
Non-Denom
The main thing that I struggle with is the acts in the Old Testament - the stoning, the murder etc. How could God have condoned that?

You would rather a Puppet Master God that owned us like puppies that grow into pet dogs?

I do believe in Jesus and what he came to earth to do, and I know that with Him came the New Testament, but we can't ignore the OT.

Jesus didn't. Good, bad, or the ugly contained in it. And yet He is so beautiful. Isn't He?

I find it difficult to accept and even explain to people why I would worship a God, who allowed, or even instructed for people to be killed. I guess Leviticus is a good example of what I mean.

'Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed' (Leviticus 20:9)

'If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die'. (Leviticus 20:10).

'Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community'. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

Leviticus is about building a holy and righteous nation of people. Notice how mankind is? Why does a person do a wicked thing, and then desire to make people either allow them to continue their wickedness OR, try to make others engage in wickedness? Would there be child porn if we stoned tp death those that "enjoyed" child porn and those that "enjoyed" producing it? There would be a lot less child victims in this world if we rid this evil from the land right?

I know Jesus is good, but the OT confuses me.

Reality can be confusing. (Study the O.J. Simpson trial.) The Old Testament is amazing as a call to righteousness of a holy people and then lists how many times people screwed that up. And WILL continue to screw it up.

Like it or not, the Old Testament presents what is true human nature without regard to some feelings getting hurt. How would you like to be a "hero" in the Bible when some pretty nasty aspects of your life are on display until the world comes to and end? The Bible reads as truth because of the grueling nature of its reporting.

Why would the God who sent Jesus to save us, the good God who loves us, allow and instruct people to kill and murder others?

Read Pslam 51.

Why is there SO MUCH evil in this world? Why isn't there almost no evil at all?

Notice that even the people of God are on display as being evil many, many times? And yet hope and forgiveness is offered many more times again. So, where is the bad message in the Old Testament? The entire collection of books known as the Old Testament holds out hope and "salvation" against all odds. Against all provable odds showing that mankind is evil through and through. What country on earth is holy and righteous after all this time of man struggling through one genocidal war after another?

Now, compare that to what God should really do to get rid of all of that evil once and for all, once again . . . and see that the message and the implementation of the goodness and righteousness of God "in the Bible" is that ALL who call on the Name of the Lord (and their household) will be saved anyway.

The message of the Bible is one not hidden under lies or a sales pitch. It is proclaimed through the unrighteousness of mankind and the Gift that God holds out to us UN-deserved and UN-earned through God's righteousness for "His Namesake."

Try to see it this way. The Bible is a recording of the DNA it took to build the Body of Christ.

With nothing but the way, the truth and the life presented honestly.

Now, look in the mirror.

And praise God through the storm.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
10,131
3,441
✟997,519.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
there are many reasons in the OT why people were stoned

touching Mount Sinai - Exodus 19:13
taking "accursed things" - Joshua 7:1-26
cursing or blaspheming - Leviticus 24:16
adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough) - Deuteronomy 22:23-24
animals (like an ox that gores a human) - Exodus 21:28
a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night - Deuteronomy 22:13-21
worshipping other gods - Deuteronomy 13:5-10; 17:2-5,
disobeying parents - Deuteronomy 21:18-21
witches and wizards - Leviticus 20:27
giving your children to Molech Leviticus 20:2
breaking the Sabbath - Numbers 15:32-56
cursing the king - 1 Kings 21:10

But the OT is not today and you can't compare the two wondering why we can be so civilized today yet in the OT they seemed barbaric.

1. Don't think we are so civilized today and 2. The OT was a time that called for the people of God to be set aside from all others and to uphold the highest standards. corruption, even on the smallest level, was dealt with harshly to ensure God's people would be able to preserve themselves. If the "rules" weren't there and they weren't dealt with harshly then people would find ways to exploit them and the nation of Israel would have disappeared.

We tend to hold life as the most precious thing in the universe but in reality it is but a drop in an ocean; we cannot escape death except through the return of Jesus. Certainly people in the OT could not escape death (except of course Enoch) I don't know what happened to the people who were stoned in the OT and if or how they were forgiven. But if they remained alive there presence would have infected Israel form the inside out and destroyed them. I will leave the judging up to God as I'm sure there were people who were stoned and legitimately sought forgiveness but it is something that had to be done and was a legitimate and common practice in that culture and time. For that day it was not considered cruel and usually punishment it was the most effective way of killing someone.

The love of God has nothing to do with how we are treated here on earth. If I lived in Iran today I could be stoned for very much of the same reasons as the Israelites were in the OT. We all need to submit to the law that is over us and if we do not we may suffer the consequences no matter how harsh or unjust they are. God's love is about his forgiveness however the ultimate purpose is not so we live a long life on earth it is so we join God in fullness and that is what forgiveness does. Those people in the OT who were stoned may have still partook in the grace of Jesus Christ.
 
Upvote 0

.Iona.

I love Jesus!
Dec 9, 2007
3,175
674
UK
✟50,506.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
UK-Greens
Yes, the time was different and stoning does still happen in some countries. I know that. But, how can you put faith in God when He has said you should be killed for the things you may have done? That's what I find difficult.

I'm not trying to cause a debate, I just want to try and get my faith back to where it was, but this is one thing that is stopping it.

I want to trust in God, but always feel that He would say that I should be killed for my sins. Did He send Jesus to stop that killing, or should that still be part of it?
 
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
10,131
3,441
✟997,519.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
faith in God give us eternal salvation and death on earth will not remove that salvation. Those stoned in the OT were not stoned because they lacked faith but because they disobeyed the law which is what preserved and kept the faith. Their death however does not discredit the love of God nor does it mean they did not partake in the grace of God.

as I mentioned harsh punishment was how they dealt with things in that time to perverse the holiness of God throughout the people because that is what they were called to be. It was not unusual in other people groups nor was it thought of as unjust but it was in fact needed and without it that holiness would not have been preserved and the Jews would have the same fate as many other ancient people groups. Stoning was very practical because there was (and still is) a lot of stones and rocks lying around in Israel and the desert around it and it did the job well. Believe it or not it was the best option they had when putting someone to death.

the "law" was there to keep the faith in the old covenant and in the new convenient we are not defined by the law anymore but instead through Jesus Christ who gives us salvation and that is was preserves our faith today. Just as today if we reject Jesus death will be our ultimate prize and in the OT if they rejected the law death came upon them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: .Iona.
Upvote 0

addo

Senior Member
Jan 29, 2010
672
49
30
Spain
✟23,549.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
The main thing that I struggle with is the acts in the Old Testament - the stoning, the murder etc. How could God have condoned that?
He didn't condone it, in the sense of "accepting or allowing behavior that is wrong", as my dictionary defines it. He commanded it.
I do believe in Jesus and what he came to earth to do, and I know that with Him came the New Testament, but we can't ignore the OT.
On that, my friend, I agree.
I find it difficult to accept and even explain to people why I would worship a God, who allowed, or even instructed for people to be killed.
This is because you start with the assumption that killing is always wrong. It is not so, and the Bible declares it. For example an angel of god killed 185,000 people (2 Kings 19:35). And other examples can be given. And we can also quote the psalms. For example:
The Lord is at Your right hand; He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath, He shall judge among the nations. He shall fill the places with dead bodies. He shall execute the heads of many countries. (Psalms 110:5-6)
And there are other examples.

But the question is, actually: are these killings justified? Yes there are. "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!" (Romans 9:14) You all know the famous verses: "For in Your sight no one living is righteous" (Psalms 143:2) for "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). Therefore, as scriptures say, "Jews and Greeks, they are all under sin" (Romans 3:9), and if we are under sin, we are all worthy of death (Romans 1:32;6:23).

Now if we are all worthy of death, and God is Judge, then He is in full right to execute whenever He wishes. In other words, none of us deserve to live, and if we die we die because we deserve it, for we all sinned.
I guess Leviticus is a good example of what I mean.

'Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed' (Leviticus 20:9)

'If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die'. (Leviticus 20:10).

'Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community'. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

I know Jesus is good, but the OT confuses me.
Jesus is good, but so is God, the Father (Mark 10:18).
Why would the God who sent Jesus to save us, the good God who loves us, allow and instruct people to kill and murder others?
Murder is only when killing is illegal. For example stoning an adulteress was not 'murder' but simply 'killing', which was lawful in that instance.

Yes, He is a loving God, but don't forget that it is written: "For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness." (Psalms 5:4) and "God is the Judge" (Psalms 75:7) and that "there is no unrighteousness in Him" (Psalms 92:15). Also this is important to know: "righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne" (Psalms 89:14) even though He is loving. He is merciful, loving, but just as well. He doesn't like wickedness and His kingdom is based on justice and mercy, of course.

Why am I saying this? Because I think I did not explain it well, so I have to remember you. Trust Him. Isn't written (it's not like I'm telling you anything new)? "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5); "blessed are all those who put their trust in Him" (Psalms 2:12) and also "whosoever trusts in the Lord, happy is he" (Proverbs 16:20).

I didn't explain it well enough I fear, so you may still have doubts. But yet remember the words of this psalm: "Wait on the LORD; be of good courage, and He shall strengthen your heart; wait, I say, on the LORD!" (Psalms 27:14) Wait, I say, for His to show you the answer. It will be done in time.

So may whole point is that we are all worthy of death. Thus if He kills us no unrighteousness is done. After all, millions or even billiongs will die when Christ will come, won't they?

Also don't forget to pray. It may not seem very beneficial at first, but it actually is.
 
Upvote 0

chingchang

Newbie
Jul 17, 2008
2,038
101
New Braunfels, Texas
✟25,259.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
The main thing that I struggle with is the acts in the Old Testament - the stoning, the murder etc. How could God have condoned that?

I do believe in Jesus and what he came to earth to do, and I know that with Him came the New Testament, but we can't ignore the OT. I find it difficult to accept and even explain to people why I would worship a God, who allowed, or even instructed for people to be killed. I guess Leviticus is a good example of what I mean.

'Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed' (Leviticus 20:9)

'If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die'. (Leviticus 20:10).

'Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community'. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

I know Jesus is good, but the OT confuses me. Why would the God who sent Jesus to save us, the good God who loves us, allow and instruct people to kill and murder others?

Ahhh...the old problem of "evil". I've read many explanations...all of them lacking somewhat. I will say this...you'll have to accept one of the many explanations and move on eventually because the truth is...WE DON'T KNOW. Everyone just self-deludes into thinking they know. I don't know. But...I found one VERY interesting explanation that I find absolutely fascinating. It is put forth in a book called 'Jehovah Unmasked'. I bought mine on Amazon. I'm not saying the author is correct...because again...I don't know. But...I'd say his explanation (which really isn't his) is entirely possible.

CC
 
Upvote 0

Cain Spencer

God save us all.
Mar 15, 2010
1,747
157
London
✟25,043.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
The main thing that I struggle with is the acts in the Old Testament - the stoning, the murder etc. How could God have condoned that?

I do believe in Jesus and what he came to earth to do, and I know that with Him came the New Testament, but we can't ignore the OT. I find it difficult to accept and even explain to people why I would worship a God, who allowed, or even instructed for people to be killed. I guess Leviticus is a good example of what I mean.

'Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed' (Leviticus 20:9)

'If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die'. (Leviticus 20:10).

'Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community'. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

I know Jesus is good, but the OT confuses me. Why would the God who sent Jesus to save us, the good God who loves us, allow and instruct people to kill and murder others?

Suffering is bad but death isn't bad. Our lives do not belong to us, they belong to God who can take them back if He so desires it.
 
Upvote 0

chingchang

Newbie
Jul 17, 2008
2,038
101
New Braunfels, Texas
✟25,259.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Suffering is bad but death isn't bad. Our lives do not belong to us, they belong to God who can take them back if He so desires it.

This is a good point. Nowhere in the Bible can one find an example of God torturing people. God destroys...he does not torture.

CC
 
Upvote 0

.Iona.

I love Jesus!
Dec 9, 2007
3,175
674
UK
✟50,506.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
UK-Greens
God destroys.

Yeah, that's what I have difficulty with.

How can I out my trust and faith in God, when any minute He culd decide I am not worthy and destroy me. Or destroy someone who is kind, loving, caring and gentle - but just isn't a Christian.
 
Upvote 0

singpeace

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Oct 21, 2009
2,439
459
U.S.
✟62,677.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
The main thing that I struggle with is the acts in the Old Testament - the stoning, the murder etc. How could God have condoned that?

I do believe in Jesus and what he came to earth to do, and I know that with Him came the New Testament, but we can't ignore the OT. I find it difficult to accept and even explain to people why I would worship a God, who allowed, or even instructed for people to be killed. I guess Leviticus is a good example of what I mean.

'Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed' (Leviticus 20:9)

'If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die'. (Leviticus 20:10).

'Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community'. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

I know Jesus is good, but the OT confuses me. Why would the God who sent Jesus to save us, the good God who loves us, allow and instruct people to kill and murder others?







Religious Girl,

I'm so glad you asked this question.
I've studied this topic for only a couple weeks, but I may have some answers.

1. Leviticus 20:9 speaks of adult children who are violently abusive to their parents. Verses 1-8 paint a picture of violent child abuse, torture, and sacrifice. God warns against the child abuse then warns against the also violent abuse going on against elderly/helpless parents.

Leviticus 20:1-3 (New Living Translation)
1. The Lord said to Moses, 2. “Give the people of Israel these instructions, which apply both to native Israelites and to the foreigners living in Israel.
“If any of them offer their children as a sacrifice to Molech, they must be put to death. The people of the community must stone them to death. 3. I myself will turn against them and cut them off from the community, because they have defiled my sanctuary and brought shame on my holy name by offering their children to Molech.

Molech was a huge image filled with hot coals and worshiped by the Moabites. Parents threw their children into the coals and proceeded to have all manner of sex while the children screamed and burned to death.

That is why God warned them in verse 10 not to have sex with one another's wife. They were partaking of child sacrifice and sex orgies while the children burned.

God warned the children of Israel to stay away from those who had turned to evil. However, 41 times they turned from God and to the evil sacrifices and worship of idols. All 41 times, God rescued them.

Regarding Lev. 24:23 and blasphemy, the Lord had to give harsh penalties in order to keep some semblance of order or else everyone might have perished. Notice the last sentence:

Leviticus 24:23
23 After Moses gave all these instructions to the Israelites, they took the blasphemer outside the camp and stoned him to death. The Israelites did just as the Lord had commanded Moses.


I believe God would rather have just shown mercy.

God has always been merciful to those who cried out to him no matter how far they had fallen from his grace. He rescued all who called on him, every time.

I hope I haven’t been too lengthy, and I hope I made some sense as I am still studying this myself.
 
Upvote 0

marlowe007

Veteran
Dec 8, 2008
1,306
101
✟31,151.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Religious Girl, your dilemma is not unique...many Christians have pondered the harsh punishments and regular calls for genocide in the OT and, after serious contemplation, have become non-believers (a similar thought pattern gave rise to Gnosticism in the early centuries AD*).

The problem is that you are seeking some sort of cosmic, deified version of Barney the Purple Dinosaur. You know, if you were to ask most Christians throughout history, very few would say that they accepted Christ because they were convinced that "God is love" or some such twaddle. By and large, we worship Him out of fear and the incentive for avoiding His wrath. And as many will attest, such fear is not mutually exclusive with loving, respecting and trusting Him.

* Granted, the Gnostics who scorned the OT Demiurge were obviously oblivious to the fact that God doesn't get any less brutal in the NT. In the book of Acts, for instance, He slaughters two people for the 'mere' crime of lying to the Holy Spirit.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

.Iona.

I love Jesus!
Dec 9, 2007
3,175
674
UK
✟50,506.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
UK-Greens
By and large, we worship Him out of fear and the incentive for avoiding His wrath.

I can't worship someone out of fear. That makes God sound extremely petty, and if that is how God behaves, then perhaps I shouldn't be a Christian.
 
Upvote 0

marlowe007

Veteran
Dec 8, 2008
1,306
101
✟31,151.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I can't worship someone out of fear. That makes God sound extremely petty, and if that is how God behaves, then perhaps I shouldn't be a Christian.

Do you not fear your parents, and yet love/trust them simultaneously? Is it extremely petty for them to expect respect on your part, especially when they love you enough to forgive your past history of smoking joints and shagging boys? You are but their creation, and are thus subject to their judgments and discernments.
 
Upvote 0

.Iona.

I love Jesus!
Dec 9, 2007
3,175
674
UK
✟50,506.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
UK-Greens
Do you not fear your parents, and yet love/trust them simultaneously? Is it extremely petty for them to expect respect on your part, especially when they love you enough to forgive your past history of smoking joints and shagging boys? You are but their creation, and are thus subject to their judgments and discernments.

No, I don't fear them. And, I have never smoked any drugs or slept with any boys, thank you very much.

My parents love me and they will never judge me.
 
Upvote 0

addo

Senior Member
Jan 29, 2010
672
49
30
Spain
✟23,549.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
The truth is that He is the potter and we are His creation. Even if we wouldn't have sinned, still, He literally owns us. Who could say that He does something wrong? Doesn't He define what is wrong and what is good anyway? And aren't we His? If I would have created something, that something is mine and I can do whatever I wish with it. If I would have written a book, I could just as well destroy it, whether it is well written or with big errors; it is mine and I can do whatever I wish with it. So even if we wouldn't have sinned, He owns us, thus He can do whatever He wishes. But of course, He is even more justified by the fact that we sinned. We are a machine that simply doesn't do what it is supposed to do. Shouldn't we actually be amazed that He was so patient with His imperfect working machines? Would you be so kind to a creation of yours that literally disobeys every commandment of yours? You put time and effort to create something good, like you wanted it, you gave it everything it needs and more, and yet it directly disobeys you, and even insults you. Would you be so patient?

So, in both cases, He is still justified for we are His, as the Psalms say: "The Earth is the LORD's, and all its fullness. The world and those who dwell therein." (Psalms 21:1). Any more questions?
 
Upvote 0

.Iona.

I love Jesus!
Dec 9, 2007
3,175
674
UK
✟50,506.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
UK-Greens
Would you be so kind to a creation of yours that literally disobeys every commandment of yours? You put time and effort to create something good, like you wanted it, you gave it everything it needs and more, and yet it directly disobeys you, and even insults you. Would you be so patient?

More people would worship God if he didn't threaten death, right? It changes the stance and doesn't make you want to give your life to Him.

I have considered my Christian. I accept that God won't allow people who don't believe and follow His word into Heaven. But, stoning children, killing people for making mistakes? I think that will turn me away.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.