The Evil God Challenge

[Moral Orel]

Now, even the idea of reasonable will differ between us, so there may not really be anything more to discuss.

If the only reason you would want to discuss this is to personally convince me, then no, this probably isn't the thread for you. I don't want to derail the thread arguing for the inherent value of discussion itself, so if you disagree that the discussion has value, then I guess we'll have to leave it here.

 

[Moral Orel]

Then you would die in a few minutes from a painful death.

Why would that be the case?

 

[Chriliman]

First the disclaimer:

This is not a thread about God commanding and doing evil deeds in the Bible. This is a thought experiment and not accusatory in any way. I am not attempting to attack or defame God, I am putting this here to question the justification for believing that any god that might exist is all good.

With that aside, I'll get right into it. A summary from Wikipedia:

The Evil God Challenge demands explanations for why belief in an all-powerful all-good God is significantly more reasonable than belief in an all-powerful all-evil god. Most of the popular arguments for the existence of God give no clue to his moral character and thus appear, in isolation, to work just as well in support of an evil god as a good God.​

The Evil God Challenge was created by Stephen Law. He's written a paper on the topic here, and there is also a neat little video on YouTube that summarizes the concept, but I won't link to it here because it may contain images that certain viewers could find offensive. But I'll transcribe most of it here:

Many atheists argue the world contains too much suffering to be the creation of a good god. There are wars, diseases, and natural disasters; horrific human and animal suffering is built into the very fabric of the world we’re forced to inhabit. Isn’t this good evidence that even if there is a creator, he is not all powerful and all good?

Of course the faithful try to explain the suffering. Some talk about free will. They say God could have created us puppet beings that always behaved well. But if we’re god's puppets, we’re not responsible for what we do. God cut our strings so that we can freely choose to do good. Then some of us choose to do evil and cause suffering. That’s the price god pays for our free will. So have we shown that it’s reasonable to believe in god after all? I don’t think so.

Suppose that after a bump on the head i come to believe that the universe was created not by a good god, but an evil god. I believe there's a single all powerful creator who’s malice knows no bounds and who’s wickedness is beyond our comprehension. Who believes in a god like that? Almost no one. Why not? Because the world would look more like a torture chamber if it was created by such a powerful and wicked being. There's too much love and laughter and too many people being kind and helping each other for this to be the creation of an evil god. Yet notice, I can explain why my evil god allows good in the same way religious folk explain why their good god allows evil.

I can say my evil god could have made us puppet beings that always did bad things, but if we’re his puppets, we’re not responsible for what we do. That’s why evil god cut our strings and set us free to allow us to freely choose to do evil. Unfortunately for evil god some of them choose to do good deeds; thats the price evil god pays to allow moral evil. Have I shown that belief in an evil god isn’t absurd. No, of course not.

Sure, I can cook up such ingenious explanations to defend both belief in a good god and belief in an evil god, but still, we can be pretty sure there’s no evil god can’t we? So why can’t we be pretty sure theres no good god either? We may not know why the universe exists but surely we are justified in supposing it is not the creation of either of these two gods.​

So can anyone rise to the challenge and explain why, if there is a personal, intelligent creator of the universe, that such a being is significantly more likely to be good than he is to be evil?

Why would an evil God create anything let alone give its creation free will?

 

[Moral Orel]

Why would an evil God create anything let alone give its creation free will?

Why would a good god create anything let alone give its creation free will?

 

[Moral Orel]

Becasue good is creative, and evil is incapable of creating.
Evil can only corrupt that which is good.
There is no other version of evil that exists on it's own.
If you can explain any evil that is not a corrupter of what already exists, try.

I don't understand the concept that creating is, in itself, good. Imagine for a moment that God never created the universe. Instead, He created one pebble, and that was it. One lifeless, emotionless, non-feeling pebble and that's all. Can you explain how such an act is good?

 

[Moral Orel]

Hi Nicholas,

I actually just watched a Q&A video for the first time a few hours ago that had a segment that seems highly relevant to your challenge here.

The exchange in this video is just over ten minutes long, so it wont be a arduous task to watch it.

If you could watch from 19:23 to 30:05 you will see a mans question brought up and then it is answered, i hope you like it and find it helpful.

I did watch it, though I'm not sure how it addresses the challenge, really. He starts with the philosophical side and explains how The Problem of Evil self destructs when it attempts to disprove the existence of a god. But that isn't what this challenge is about. I acknowledge that it is impossible to disprove the existence of any god, this is just about determining what one of his attributes might be. So it is accepted that there is a god before the discussion begins, and we are trying to determine if he is good or evil. He then goes on to share some anecdotes, but I don't see how they apply to the challenge either.

A girl that lacks the ability to feel physical pain causes her family to feel emotional pain, people who are successful still feel emotional pain, a woman who feels physical pain still feels emotionally good, and a person who feels all kinds of pain believes good things come from god. I don't want you to think I didn't watch it just because I'm having trouble connecting it to the challenge.

 

[SkyWriting]

I don't understand the concept that creating is, in itself, good. Imagine for a moment that God never created the universe. Instead, He created one pebble, and that was it. One lifeless, emotionless, non-feeling pebble and that's all. Can you explain how such an act is good?

Suppose that we had reached space and discovered that everything we saw
was an illusion except for that one pebble. Would we toss it away?
We'd find it fascinating and study it for centuries.

 

[SkyWriting]

Why would that be the case?

God is evil. You may pick your own evil scenario. Please give it and I'll explain why Good is bigger.

 

[Moral Orel]

Suppose that we had reached space and discovered that everything we saw
was an illusion except for that one pebble. Would we toss it away?
We'd find it fascinating and study it for centuries.

So people need to exist in order to appreciate God's creation in order for that creation to be good?

 

[SkyWriting]

Many atheists argue the world contains too much suffering to be the creation of a good god.... Isn’t this good evidence that even if there is a creator, he is not all powerful and all good?

Babies fall and get hurt as they learn to walk. There is nothing more painful in
this world than watching or hearing a baby fall down some stairs. I watched it happen.
But that same girl in 5th grade now has a ballet scholarship that covers her lessons
through high school.
Those atheists are whining about the babies who fall while learning to walk.

 

[SkyWriting]

Of course the faithful try to explain the suffering.

As do athletes who train for the Olympics. They blindly explain away the pain involved becasue they have been brainwashed into thinking it's needed.

 

[SkyWriting]

Because the world would look more like a torture chamber if it was created by such a powerful and wicked being. There's too much love and laughter and too many people being kind and helping each other for this to be the creation of an evil god. Yet notice, I can explain why my evil god allows good in the same way religious folk explain why their good god allows evil.

There are thousands of stories just as you describe. Every one of them
reveals how even the smallest amount of good can triumph over evil
even when it loses the battle.

Man's Search for Meaning - Wikipedia
7 Lessons Learned From Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor E. Frankl

 

[SkyWriting]

So people need to exist in order to appreciate God's creation in order for that creation to be good?

I'm saying that we would consider it good for no other reason that it's simple existence.
If you look at it from the perspective of a second rock, at least it would have something
to bump into someday during it's infinite existence. What a Cosmos changing event that
would be! In all of time these two rocks would eventually bump into each other and
all of creation would be radically changed as these two pebbles changed direction!

Billions of years later, we would call it "The Big Bump Theory." Incredibly important
even though no one was there to see it happen!

 

[Freodin]

Babies fall and get hurt as they learn to walk. There is nothing more painful in
this world than watching or hearing a baby fall down some stairs. I watched it happen.
But that same girl in 5th grade now has a ballet scholarship that covers her lessons
through high school.
Those atheists are whining about the babies who fall while learning to walk.

Well...

I knew a boy in 5th grade. He had learned to walk. In fact, he had learned to run and kick the football... he was really good at it. Good enough to be considered to become a pro, as he told me, when we met again, about a decade later.

Though at that point, he was a wreck of a human, hunched in a wheelchair, twitching and drooling, his language barely comprehensible, his mind slipping and flipping. A car had run him over, and he barely escaped with his life. Not for long though... he died soon after.

But I am certain that he is fine now, in a place and state where we cannot see him.

Yeah, good always triumphs over evil.

 

[Moral Orel]

I'm saying that we would consider it good for no other reason that it's simple existence.
If you look at it from the perspective of a second rock, at least it would have something
to bump into someday during it's infinite existence. What a Cosmos changing event that
would be! In all of time these two rocks would eventually bump into each other and
all of creation would be radically changed as these two pebbles changed direction!

Billions of years later, we would call it "The Big Bump Theory." Incredibly important
even though no one was there to see it happen!

We would consider it good because it would be amazing to find one authentic thing in a universe of illusion. Another pebble would consider it good because of how it can interact with it as well. What I wanted you to show is that creating a pebble is good all by itself. Needing us or another pebble to interact with it to produce some good outcome does not do that.

What I'm getting at is that simply creating something isn't inherently good. I could even imagine creating something for the purposes of doing evil with it. Would creating it still be a good thing because creating is good? Imagine an inmate in prison creating a shiv for the sole purpose of stabbing an innocent guard. Is creating that shiv good because creating is good?

What I'm thinking is that creating isn't inherently good or evil. What is done with that creation can be good or evil though.

 

[SkyWriting]

Well...
I knew a boy in 5th grade. He had learned to walk. In fact, he had learned to run and kick the football... he was really good at it. Good enough to be considered to become a pro, as he told me, when we met again, about a decade later.Though at that point, he was a wreck of a human, hunched in a wheelchair, twitching and drooling, his language barely comprehensible, his mind slipping and flipping. A car had run him over, and he barely escaped with his life. Not for long though... he died soon after.But I am certain that he is fine now, in a place and state where we cannot see him.Yeah, good always triumphs over evil.

I'm sure he appreciated the good years in his life,
even though you discard their value to him.

 

[SkyWriting]

What I'm getting at is that simply creating something isn't inherently good.

But I am proving evidence that creation is good and you have not provided any.

I'm saying that we would consider (the existence of a lone pebble) good for no other reason that it's simple existence.

This supports my claim.

So, we are examining the pebble.....and it disappears!
We, naturally, identify this loss as evil.

Again, supporting my theory.

Or, the pebble decays into dust. We naturally mourn the loss of the pebble.
Again, supporting my theory.

Or the pebble is stepped on and crushed. We put the punk in jail.
Again, supporting my theory.

 

[Freodin]

Sorry, my college SIU-Carbondale was rife with people in wheelchairs.
A few could only "sip-and-puff" to control their electric wheelchairs.
One girl had been in a wheelchair since she was 10 years old due
to arthritis. I married her. The good things in life trump over all evil.

Now that is... harsh.
I just told you a story that ended - ended! - in horrible pain, loss and death... and you wipe it away with "well, I found a pretty flower today, that means everything is rainbows."

I met this boy when I was serving my social service in a school for handicapped children. This place was "rife with people in wheelchairs". A lot of them just "normal" children... sometimes happy, sometimes sad, sometimes angry. A lot of them were in pain, physically and mentally. A lot of them died very young. Death trumps over all.

But I am sure they all would have gladly accepted all the "evil" in their life because of all the pretty flowers... that some of them could neither see nor feel nor smell.

 

[Yanni depp]

I did watch it, though I'm not sure how it addresses the challenge, really. He starts with the philosophical side and explains how The Problem of Evil self destructs when it attempts to disprove the existence of a god. But that isn't what this challenge is about. I acknowledge that it is impossible to disprove the existence of any god, this is just about determining what one of his attributes might be. So it is accepted that there is a god before the discussion begins, and we are trying to determine if he is good or evil. He then goes on to share some anecdotes, but I don't see how they apply to the challenge either.

A girl that lacks the ability to feel physical pain causes her family to feel emotional pain, people who are successful still feel emotional pain, a woman who feels physical pain still feels emotionally good, and a person who feels all kinds of pain believes good things come from god. I don't want you to think I didn't watch it just because I'm having trouble connecting it to the challenge.

Hey, thats awesome you watched it, thank you!
Its probably our differing perspectives that are causing the schism on the relevance of the video.

The fellows question in the video was "if we assume that God exists, what evidence is there to show that he is benevolent" and he goes on to mention sex trafficking and other atrocities that befall the innocent and why a "benevolent God" would allow that. Basically, subversively stating that there is a "bad god." It sounds very similar to the portion of your OP here

Many atheists argue the world contains too much suffering to be the creation of a good god. There are wars, diseases, and natural disasters; horrific human and animal suffering is built into the very fabric of the world we’re forced to inhabit. Isn’t this good evidence that even if there is acreator, he is not all powerful and all good?

He answered, that the pain caused by the sin in this world, is a symptomatic expression of the brokenness we have on the inside, of our souls. the girl feeling no pain was always at risk of dying and she needed that pain to tell her something was wrong with her body so that she wouldnt die. So in needing to heed that pain as a sign that something was wrong, likewise our inner pain is a sign that something is wrong with our relationship with God. Yes there is pain and suffering in this world. But God didnt abandon us. He didnt distance Himself from our turmoils and leaving us to writhe, not wanting to have any part in it. But He came down to earth and joined us in our suffering when He died on a cross, so that one day we may in turn Join Him, but when we join Him it wont be to share in suffering as He did with us, but to join Him in euphoria that no human being on earth has ever known nor can imagine. That is a benevolent God with love, mercy, compassion and provision.

I guess its all about perspective.

God Bless.

 

[SkyWriting]

Now that is... harsh.
I just told you a story that ended - ended! - in horrible pain, loss and death... and you wipe it away with "well, I found a pretty flower today, that means everything is rainbows."

I met this boy when I was serving my social service in a school for handicapped children. This place was "rife with people in wheelchairs". A lot of them just "normal" children... sometimes happy, sometimes sad, sometimes angry. A lot of them were in pain, physically and mentally. A lot of them died very young. Death trumps over all.

But I am sure they all would have gladly accepted all the "evil" in their life because of all the pretty flowers... that some of them could neither see nor feel nor smell.

Life trumps the game over death. No matter how brief.

1.“He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how.”
2. “The salvation of man is through love and in love.”
3. You can get used to anything
4. You can resist your environment’s influence
5. There is meaning in suffering
6. Without hope, meaning, a future, death will come soon
7. Logotherapy is a practical solution to your problems

7 Lessons Learned From Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor E. Frankl (Book Review) - Benjamin McEvoy