The evil 'D' word

[Bron]

Someone on another thread mentioned 'repenting of the sin of divorce', but I think this attitude needs challenging....because this attitude takes people who have been hurt and goes and hurts them all over again.

I think that many, if not most, people who divorce have a damn good reason for it.....that most people hesitate to rip a family apart. Sure, there must be those who do it for selfish reasons, but I think most people who divorce really did try to avoid turning their children's lives upside down, and that when they do get to the point of walking away, perhaps others might even have compassion for whatever circumstances must have brought their families to this.

All I can say is, thank God He is more compassionate than people.

 

[Bijano]

Sounds like u had a hard break up. Sorry about that. I think divorce is better than living your life in misery with someone you don't love.

 

[meliagaunt]

My grandmother got divorced way back before the Second World War. Her husband simply abandoned her with two small twin children - my mother and her sister. Granny was thrown out of the Mothers' Union, a 'Christian' church organisation that she had been a member of. I should say that the Mothers' Union no longer has this policy and does do some great work. This put her off Church, though she remained a Christian, and always had her Bible by her bedside.

I would hope that such attitudes had disappeared. Divorce is always a sad thing, but that doesn't mean it isn't sometimes the only option.

 

[Bron]

Well, thanks Bijano for your understanding.
It sounds like people here at least have healthy attitudes, and I have found a church which is lovely and non judgemental, a breath of fresh air. I get more concerned for people trying to make that huge decision - sometimes divorce is the healthy thing, and they should be making that choice sooner rather than later, but because of the simplistic mindsets of people they look to for advice and support, they are put off and stay in destructive situations. That's the more practical component of what I was getting at, I guess.

Oh, here's a link for anyone who might be interested, it's a Christian website too Divorce Book | Divorced Christain | Christian Divorce Advice | Divorce Guilt

 

[dies-l]

Divorce is always rooted in sin. Sometimes, it is the sin of breaking a commitment that one has made to God, for no good reason. Sometimes, it is the sin of domestic violence. Sometimes, it is the sin of addiction. Sometimes, the marriage itself is rooted in sinfulness. The point is that, wherever there is a divorce, there is a need for repentance and healing.

But, it is wrong to oversimplify things by saying "if you are divorced, you must repent of the sin of divorce." Does a woman in an abusive relationship need to repent of protecting herself and her children from her husband's violence? Absolutely not! But, she should look at her own role in the abusive situation so that she does not put herself, and her children in the same situation again. I don't mean this to sound like "some women just deserve it" or anything like that. But, the reality is that, as a general rule, domestic violence victims often make choices that cause them to be victims: they place too little value on themselves, they involve themselves in codependent relationships, they seek out "bad boys" or men who have drug or anger problems, etc. And, if they don't walk away from their abuse, asking themselves "how did I end up here?", then they will very likely walk right into another abusive relationship. And, that self-evaluation is the very type of thing that Scripture calls repentance.

The same might be said for someone who foolishly marries with immature or maladjusted motives. If they don't look at their mistake, after their divorce, they will likely never have a healthy marriage. Also, for someone whose addiction causes the divorce or their person whose violence causes the divorce. And, even the person whose divorce was simply the product of an unwillingness to tough it out through a difficult situation.

The reality is that most divorces are caused by a variety of sin issues in the lives of both parties. And, while there are clearly circumstances where the divorce is the only reasonable outcome in a situation, those circumstances never occur for good reasons. Marriages get to the point where divorce seems inevitable because one or both people in the marriage makes selfish and sinful decisions, usually long before the dreaded D word is thrown about. But, our reaction to divorce should not be one of judgment, but one of understanding that it is just one more loss that we suffer from time to time as a result of our sinful condition.

 

[Bron]

You have a more thoughtful and well-rounded view of divorce than most.

self-evaluation is the very type of thing that Scripture calls repentance.

A very excellent point! This is so much more valuable than simply saying 'repent ye'.

The reality is that most divorces are caused by a variety of sin issues in the lives of both parties.

Just be aware to treat every single case of divorce as unique. And also, people should be aware of mental health issues, for example narcissism.

And, while there are clearly circumstances where the divorce is the only reasonable outcome in a situation, those circumstances never occur for good reasons.

Again, things like mental health may mean the divorce actually does come about for a good reason - that the marriage itself should never have taken place. In the case of a narcissist, they pretend to be what they are not, therefore the person who marries them, marries an illusion. (Actually, I am not talking about my ex here, just something to be aware of.)

But, our reaction to divorce should not be one of judgment, but one of understanding that it is just one more loss that we suffer from time to time as a result of our sinful condition.

This is really the core of what my original post was about, but you put it very well.

 

[Bron]

Except I would probably put more emphasis on it being a result of our 'human condition'. Perhaps you mean 'sinful' and 'human' synonymously, but 'sinful' at least nowadays has connotations of blame, whereas, as you also said, I don't feel you can blame a person for marrying an abusive partner on account of their own self-esteem issues.

 

[dies-l]

You have a more thoughtful and well-rounded view of divorce than most.

I am an evangelical Christian AND a divorce attorney. This tends to help shape one's view on these types of things.

A very excellent point! This is so much more valuable than simply saying 'repent ye'.

The problem with the way that the word "repent" gets used by many fundamentalists and evangelicals takes the focus off of repentance as a pivotal first step in healing and instead makes it sound like some form of self-loathing, judgment, or blame. These concepts don't get us anywhere, and we are not called by Scripture to place blame, judge, etc. We are called to be forgiven and healed by the grace of God, through Christ. Repentance is part of this, in that we cannot be healed, until we (a) admit that there's a problem and (b) acknowledge that we need help to solve the problem.

Just be aware to treat every single case of divorce as unique. And also, people should be aware of mental health issues, for example narcissism.


Again, things like mental health may mean the divorce actually does come about for a good reason - that the marriage itself should never have taken place. In the case of a narcissist, they pretend to be what they are not, therefore the person who marries them, marries an illusion. (Actually, I am not talking about my ex here, just something to be aware of.)

Exactly. Sometimes the sin of divorce is the divorce. More often, it is something else, such as the dysfunctional patterns in our lives that cause us to jump into unhealthy relationships. I was involved in a marriage that was centered on addiction and codependency for about 8 years. We divorced, and I believe that the sin was not the divorce, but the absolutely dysfunctional nature of the relationship. The divorce was actually an important part of my recovery (even though it was initiated by my ex-wife)

I have known many couples who have gone through divorce, and I have yet to meet a couple where one party is clearly justified and the other is clearly wrong. Sometimes the mistake is simply marrying someone that wisdom would caution against (very often with the spouses of mentally ill people, who often have codependency issues of their own); sometimes it is being abusive; most of the time, one's role in the marriage and divorce is somewhere in between.

This is really the core of what my original post was about, but you put it very well.

Thanks. I think of divorce as very much like a death. It is the death of a (usually unhealthy) marriage. But, one pattern that is central to the Gospel is that death is often followed by resurrection. We can choose whether we will use the opportunity that divorce provides to enter into a new healthy life or to continue in the same unhealthy patterns that caused us to end up in divorce in the first place.

 

[Bron]

I am an evangelical Christian AND a divorce attorney. This tends to help shape one's view on these types of things.

Aha!

The problem with the way that the word "repent" gets used

I guess that's why I am wary of terms such as 'sin' and 'repentence' - they come with a cargo load of baggage; can mean different things to different people, and can simply cause non churchgoers to glaze over. Perhaps the language we use needs to evolve to cope with connotations that words gather over years. I like your break down of what it means to you, but you had to explain it.

Sometimes the sin of divorce is the divorce.

What do you mean by this? Do you mean when people divorce prematurely?

I have known many couples who have gone through divorce, and I have yet to meet a couple where one party is clearly justified and the other is clearly wrong. Sometimes the mistake is simply marrying someone that wisdom would caution against (very often with the spouses of mentally ill people, who often have codependency issues of their own); sometimes it is being abusive; most of the time, one's role in the marriage and divorce is somewhere in between.

I still say, and maybe especially since you must have seen so many divorces that it may become like seeing the wood for the trees, that every situation is different. If you mean none are 'without sin' I completely agree, I would certainly not claim that for myself, even though my ex was abusive. However, there is a difference between not having reacted in the most Christlike way in all situations, if you will, and in there being equal weight in bringing about the actual divorce. Making the mistake of marrying someone damaging is hardly a share of blame, and neither is reacting badly to being mistreated. I'm surprised you don't seem to allow a case of justification for abusive situations, although as I understand it, the courts assume that everyone is lying at least a little bit to protect their corner.

Thanks. I think of divorce as very much like a death. It is the death of a (usually unhealthy) marriage. But, one pattern that is central to the Gospel is that death is often followed by resurrection. We can choose whether we will use the opportunity that divorce provides to enter into a new healthy life or to continue in the same unhealthy patterns that caused us to end up in divorce in the first place.

I like this!! This is my experience, but I had never thought of it this way.

 

[dies-l]

I guess that's why I am wary of terms such as 'sin' and 'repentence' - they come with a cargo load of baggage; can mean different things to different people, and can simply cause non churchgoers to glaze over. Perhaps the language we use needs to evolve to cope with connotations that words gather over years. I like your break down of what it means to you, but you had to explain it.

I tend to lean towards reclaiming their true biblical meaning. But, I can see how words like these can be problematic who have only ever heard them misused and abused.

What do you mean by this? Do you mean when people divorce prematurely?

Some people divorce for no reason other than that they are tired of their spouse, they are escaping a momentarily unpleasant situation, etc. Sometimes divorce happens without a good reason (no abuse, no adultery, no fundamental dysfunction in the relationship, just boredom or laziness). Not that this is common, but we should acknowledge that some people just take divorce too casually.

I still say, and maybe especially since you must have seen so many divorces that it may become like seeing the wood for the trees, that every situation is different. If you mean none are 'without sin' I completely agree, I would certainly not claim that for myself, even though my ex was abusive. However, there is a difference between not having reacted in the most Christlike way in all situations, if you will, and in there being equal weight in bringing about the actual divorce. Making the mistake of marrying someone damaging is hardly a share of blame, and neither is reacting badly to being mistreated. I'm surprised you don't seem to allow a case of justification for abusive situations, although as I understand it, the courts assume that everyone is lying at least a little bit to protect their corner.

Just remember I am not talking about blame, but rather about recognizing unhealthy patterns so that you don't repeat them. Blame is focused on the past. But, if one is going to learn from a failed marriage, it should be an opportunity to look at one's past mistakes. A victim of abuse might ask "why was a I drawn to an abusive person?" or "what caused me to put up with it?". An addict might ask "how did my addiction hurt my marriage?" or "how do I get help with overcoming my addiction?" There is really nothing that you can do to fix the other person's deficiencies, so there is no benefit to focusing on them. It's up to them if they want to change or not.

Also, just to be clear, I am talking about looking at it after the fact. Certainly, while a divorce is pending and for a while thereafter, a period of grief is important. And, the grieving period is not really the best time to sort through one's personal shortcomings. But, at some point, if we are to be healthy, we need to move past the grief and into an honest appraisal of what happened and what our role in it was.

I like this!! This is my experience, but I had never thought of it this way.

That I draw a lot from my own divorce and remarriage. My divorce was the official end of a terribly unhealthy relationship. But, the lessons I learned from it shaped my attitudes, which helped me to meet my current wife, with whom I have a much healthier relationship. And, this not because she is a better person than my ex, but because I am a healthier person than I was when I was married to my ex.

 

[XtianAgain]

Divorce is more than necessary in cases of abuse, fornication, untreated addiction and abandonment. (Probably more I can't think of right now)

I do wish we had less of a divorce rate in this nation. I think it can truly hurt a lot of people. Sometimes, though, people have no other choice. You can be put into extraordinary circumstances and have no alternative. (Physical abuse do it right away!)

I'd also like to add if someone in your church is divorced, even if it is very much their fault, it is NOT our place to judge. You love them like Christ loved us. You ma'am/sir are a sinner too!

 

[jcp988]

Divorce is never a good thing. It breaks what God never intended to break. It pains me how many divorces we truly have... But is it a sin? No, it's not. Often sin is involved in the reason for getting a divorce but the divorce itself is not a sin. That does not mean we should take divorce lightly. It causes great pain and often tears a family apart. I can only imagine how it makes God feel to see it happen so much. Divorce is a horrible painful experience, but it does not alienate us from God. There are reasons to get a divorce, but I think if at all possible we ought to try to hold on.

Divorce is never a good option, but sometimes it's the best option we have.

 

[Bron]

So surprisingly - we're all saying similar things - divorce is not good in itself, but sometimes it's the necessary thing, and we shouldn't judge those who have been through it. Good. Now all we need to to get that attitude to be the norm in real life

 

[Bron]

Physical abuse do it right away!

If only churches would support this - I was told by a church elder to be more gentle-spirited (ie. be a good little woman), and my husband had a finger wagged gently in his general direction. When this is the response from a church representative, what you take away from it is that the behaviour is not that bad and is certainly no reason for getting away.

While I was growing up, the story that was quoted to me was a woman going to her pastor and saying 'my husband beats me when he is drunk' and being told to go back to him and submit like a good wife, put him to bed when he is drunk etc, and that God would make him a new man - and in the story, of course, he became a good husband because she was a good wife. So with that kind of teaching in my head, when I grew up I tried being a good wife and prayed that would make him a good husband, but in the end God had to wait for me to stop listening to christians and start listening to Him.

Since splitting up, I have had church laypeople question my decision, and even when I mention violence, they still say, 'oh, but have you tried ....' the message there is clear.

If those are the messages people get, then the church is complicit in abuse.

 

[QuakerOats]

As a child of divorced parents, I can say that sometimes, divorce is the necessary and best option for the physical, mental and emotional health of everyone involved.

 

[XtianAgain]

If only churches would support this - I was told by a church elder to be more gentle-spirited (ie. be a good little woman), and my husband had a finger wagged gently in his general direction. When this is the response from a church representative, what you take away from it is that the behaviour is not that bad and is certainly no reason for getting away.

While I was growing up, the story that was quoted to me was a woman going to her pastor and saying 'my husband beats me when he is drunk' and being told to go back to him and submit like a good wife, put him to bed when he is drunk etc, and that God would make him a new man - and in the story, of course, he became a good husband because she was a good wife. So with that kind of teaching in my head, when I grew up I tried being a good wife and prayed that would make him a good husband, but in the end God had to wait for me to stop listening to christians and start listening to Him.

Since splitting up, I have had church laypeople question my decision, and even when I mention violence, they still say, 'oh, but have you tried ....' the message there is clear.

If those are the messages people get, then the church is complicit in abuse.

Bron, I work to some degree with abused women. When I hear stories like that I cringe. Anybody, who tells you to stick it out with anyone who is physically abusing you should be put in a cell next to the abuser. Worst advice ever.

 

[Zebra1552]

Someone on another thread mentioned 'repenting of the sin of divorce', but I think this attitude needs challenging....because this attitude takes people who have been hurt and goes and hurts them all over again.

I think that many, if not most, people who divorce have a damn good reason for it.....that most people hesitate to rip a family apart. Sure, there must be those who do it for selfish reasons, but I think most people who divorce really did try to avoid turning their children's lives upside down, and that when they do get to the point of walking away, perhaps others might even have compassion for whatever circumstances must have brought their families to this.

All I can say is, thank God He is more compassionate than people.

I am the child of a divorced couple. If there was any consideration on my father's part for myself and my sister, it sure didn't show. He cheated on my mom, forced us to move, and any consideration on his part was usually selfish. The only thing he worried about was having his time with us (if it was convenient for him), paying an equal share of our bills, and other mundane things.

He is no father to me, and he has plenty of sins he needs repenting of.

So you ask if there is sin in divorce? Read Jesus' words. Moses allowed it because people's hearts were hard, and the only legit divorces in Jesus' eyes are from unfaithfulness, and let me tell you even those aren't without their sins. Divorce is not a good thing, and was not intended by God. Why, then, should we make allowances for it? You say have compassion. One can have compassion without condoning the results or actions.

 

[Bron]

No, I didn't ask if there was sin in divorce, I said that people shouldn't judge 'divorce' as a single entity of sin.

I don't follow where you are coming from in this post - it sounds like your family was better off without your father, but you still hold divorce as a sin?

And if you're being hostile to me, don't. I have my own pain regarding divorce. I don't see why society should inflict further pain on people who have already been hurt enough to go through a divorce. That was my OP point.

 

[Bron]

As a child of divorced parents, I can say that sometimes, divorce is the necessary and best option for the physical, mental and emotional health of everyone involved.

Thanks for that. It's encouraging to hear that from someone who was a child in that situation. It is such a difficult decision when you know the kids lives will be turned upside down, you ask yourself if they are better off or not, it's a terrible place.

it took me years to come to that decision, though I should have done it sooner, I believe. And unfortunately it was attitudes from the church that essentially kept me from taking that step. Which is why I am on a mini crusade, because it's so important for the church to be educated on unhealthy relationships (not just the punching kind), on giving the right advice (because people DO come to the church for that kind of advice), and not assuming that prayer will always result in a healed marriage. I don't just want to point a finger at the church, I wish there would be healthy change in attitude!! I hope that telling this story might make a few people think again.

 

[QuakerOats]

Bron, all that matters is that you did finally make the choice to say enough is enough. I waited many years for my parents to do so, and while I might wish it were done sooner, the fact is that it was done, and I haven't been in that environment for about ten years, and have been all the better for it.