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The Eucharist: True differences between Catholics and Orthodox???

Truth Lover

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Infants not being communed has more to do with them not being in full communion yet?

It may also be that there is a difference in the way in which it is perceived. Is Catholic theology concerned with any re-sacrificing of Christ? Do you speak concerning the details of what the physical substance of the Eucharist is like?

We do speak of the bread and wine being our offering that we bring into the Church, and the Holy Spirit changes it to be the Eucharist for our benefit.

I know that we do not have Eucharistic adoration, though the Eucharist is treated with the utmost respect.

It is a discipline, not a doctrine, of the Roman Catholics that children must be able to discern the Body and Blood Of Christ before receiving Communion.

We do not re-sacrifice Jesus in the Mass. Rather, His sacrifice on Calvary is made present to us so that we can participate in it. We offer our works, joys, and suffering in union with Christ to God the Father.

We believe that the unleavened bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ. They still have the appearance and chemistry of bread and wine, but the essence of what it IS becomes Christ's Body and Blood and remains so until it is consumed and still looks like bread (about 15 minutes after it is consumed). It remains the Body and Blood when it is not yet consumed, so we do have Eucharistic adoration outside of Mass.

We use unleavened bread as a remembrance of the Passover meal that Jesus ate at the Last Supper because Jesus told us to "Do this in remembrance of me."
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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It is a discipline, not a doctrine, of the Roman Catholics that children must be able to discern the Body and Blood Of Christ before receiving Communion.

Wow! I did not know that... so grace then becomes dependent upon knowledge.

Untenable position.

Forgive me...
 
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All4Christ

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It is a discipline, not a doctrine, of the Roman Catholics that children must be able to discern the Body and Blood Of Christ before receiving Communion.

We do not re-sacrifice Jesus in the Mass. Rather, His sacrifice on Calvary is made present to us so that we can participate in it. We offer our works, joys, and suffering in union with Christ to God the Father.

We believe that the unleavened bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ. They still have the appearance and chemistry of bread and wine, but the essence of what it IS becomes Christ's Body and Blood and remains so until it is consumed and still looks like bread (about 15 minutes after it is consumed). It remains the Body and Blood when it is not yet consumed, so we do have Eucharistic adoration outside of Mass.

We use unleavened bread as a remembrance of the Passover meal that Jesus ate at the Last Supper because Jesus told us to "Do this in remembrance of me."
Is the 15 minutes after consumption official doctrine / teaching?

If so, that is another difference. We don't define exactly when it becomes the Body and Blood of Christ or when it stops having the attributes of bread and wine.
 
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Erose

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Is the 15 minutes after consumption official doctrine / teaching?

If so, that is another difference. We don't define exactly when it becomes the Body and Blood of Christ or when it stops having the attributes of bread and wine.
No.
 
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tampasteve

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Wow! I did not know that... so grace then becomes dependent upon knowledge.

Untenable position.

Forgive me...
Discipline, not doctrine. It is a custom of the Latin RCC, but the Eastern Catholics can do as the Eastern Orthodox, but not all do. As a discipline it could be adjusted or changed, though unlikely.
 
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Erose

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Just FTR, anything more beyond this that I say is not church dogma, but rather discussion. "that the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Christ" is also our dogma. Anything beyond that isn't dogma, but rather is discussion (on my part)
Oddly enough that is transubstantiation in a nutshell. If the bread and wine BECOMES the Body and Blood of Christ, then that is transubstantiation.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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We use unleavened bread as a remembrance of the Passover meal that Jesus ate at the Last Supper because Jesus told us to "Do this in remembrance of me."

Why was this changed to unleavened? Unleavened was only used DURING the days of unleavened bread. Leavened bread was used the rest of the year.
 
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dzheremi

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Oddly enough that is transubstantiation in a nutshell. If the bread and wine BECOMES the Body and Blood of Christ, then that is transubstantiation.

Transubstantiation goes a ways further into explaining exactly what is going on than simply saying that, though.

From EWTN's explanation of the concept:

Besides the Real Presence which faith accepts and delights in, there is the doctrine of transubstantiation, from which we may at least get a glimpse of what happens when the priest consecrates bread and wine, so that they become Christ's body and Christ's blood.

At this stage, we must be content with only the simplest statement of the meaning of, and distinction between substance and accidents, without which we should make nothing at all of transubstantiation. We shall concentrate upon bread, reminding ourselves once again that what is said applies in principle to wine as well.

We look at the bread the priest uses in the Sacrament. It is white, round, soft. The whiteness is not the bread, it is simply a quality that the bread has; the same is true of the roundness and the softness. There is something there that has these and other properties, qualities, attributes- the philosophers call all of them accidents. Whiteness and roundness we see; softness brings in the sense of touch. We might smell bread, and the smell of new bread is wonderful, but once again the smell is not the bread, but simply a property. The something which has the whiteness, the softness, the roundness, has the smell; and if we try another sense, the sense of taste, the same something has that special effect upon our palate.

In other words, whatever the senses perceive-even with the aid of those instruments men are forever inventing to increase the reach of the senses- is always of this same sort, a quality, a property, an attribute; no sense perceives the something which has all these qualities, which is the thing itself. This something is what the philosophers call substance; the rest are accidents which it possesses. Our senses perceive accidents; only the mind knows the substance. This is true of bread, it is true of every created thing. Left to itself, the mind assumes that the substance is that which, in all its past experience, has been found to have that particular group of accidents. But in these two instances, the bread and wine of the Eucharist, the mind is not left to itself. By the revelation of Christ it knows that the substance has been changed, in the one case into the substance of his body, in the other into the substance of his blood.
+++

And it goes on like this for quite some time, making philosophical statements about this or that.

It is interesting to me, for the purposes of drawing a distinction between this kind of explanation and what you can find in the Orthodox liturgical texts of my own Church ("the sanctification is by the Holy Spirit" -- period), how much transubstantiation relies on the knowledge and acceptance of these philosophical categories, without which nothing can be made of the doctrine at all (according to the above). After all, the piece starts off noting that this is all "besides the real presence", so this is something additional to the basic belief that Christ is truly present in the bread and wine, which is not a point of difference between the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox.

From having been RC and now not being so (I suppose to the those of the Chalcedonian confession such as yourselves it's a matter of opinion as to whether or not I am Orthodox now; I will continue to write in this manner in defense of my Church regardless), I think you could say that about a lot of things that distinguish Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy: the question of their differences is not usually at the level of what they are talking about (e..g, in this case, the Eucharist or the real presence of Christ in it or whatever you want to call it), but of how they talk about it. As I wrote in my earlier reply, I don't see why any of this is necessary at all, as it wouldn't even occur to me to make the kinds of distinctions or statements that to Roman Catholics quite reasonably underlie what they say about their faith. "Accidents", "substance", "properties"....er, okay, then. You have a good time with that. I'm gonna be over here, doing this:

hqdefault.jpg

And while I'm doing this, I'm going to be giving the responses from the section of the liturgy I already presented ("Amen, I believe", etc.), which is what my faith requires, so that we all know in a crystal clear and experiential fashion what it is we are engaging in and why. We prostrate here before the holy body and blood of Christ our God, present before us, and given for us for the remission of sins and for eternal life. Philosophical arguments may have their place (I guess...for other people in other traditions), but that place is not here, and not now.

Respectfully, that is the difference. There is a great deal of philosophy underlying RC ideas about many subjects that quite simply has no place in other traditions, and that is why you end up with these differences that maybe you cannot see as differences because they are ingrained in the way you talk about something, even something that we both agree on at a different level of discussion. They are not similarly ingrained in other peoples' faith.
 
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Paidiske

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Oddly enough that is transubstantiation in a nutshell. If the bread and wine BECOMES the Body and Blood of Christ, then that is transubstantiation.

I disagree; transubstantiation (as dzheremi said) goes beyond that to explaining that becoming in terms of a particular metaphysics.

When I say I don't believe in transubstantiation, I don't mean that I don't believe the bread and wine becomes (to us) the body and blood of Christ. I mean that I don't understand that becoming in terms of neo-Aristotelian metaphysics.
 
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mark46

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Yes, Catholics have had the (almost scientific) need for centuries of very particular clear explanations. We are uncomfortable with the idea of mystery. We forget the teachings of our childhood that ultimately so much is "mystery". The Eastern view of sacrament as mystery seems much closer to the Tradition of the Early Church.

I do think though that (as I was trying to make understood in the other thread) ... it's not JUST that we claim we don't know. I think it's very important to our understanding that we believe we CAN'T know certain details, and further, that it is wrong to try to delve into them.

I think I can say that we would say that the Catholic teaching as far as the details of what is materially present, may be correct on any points, all points, or no points, as far as we know. So you may be right. But we would not meditate on such things.

We really go no further than the Eucharist being the true Body and blood of the Risen Christ. And as I think I said earlier, the question "is it the Body and the blood, or is it the bread and wine" would get a simple answer of "yes".

I have probably missed a few other points (being changed by the Holy Spirit, for example), but that is very nearly the complete total of what we know, and just as importantly, what we believe we CAN know.

In this case, we are not free to speculate or add anything, just because it doesn't contradict these points. The Mystery beyond what is delineated is PART OF the teaching, so adding to it in this case would specifically go against what we believe.



Whether it might not get confused with some, I cannot say. It probably will. I've met a few Orthodox converts who were received and not corrected of certain errors, so I'm sure it can happen. Hopefully we always do our best to teach and learn, and these things will be minimized.
 
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Erose

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Transubstantiation goes a ways further into explaining exactly what is going on than simply saying that, though.

From EWTN's explanation of the concept:

Besides the Real Presence which faith accepts and delights in, there is the doctrine of transubstantiation, from which we may at least get a glimpse of what happens when the priest consecrates bread and wine, so that they become Christ's body and Christ's blood.

At this stage, we must be content with only the simplest statement of the meaning of, and distinction between substance and accidents, without which we should make nothing at all of transubstantiation. We shall concentrate upon bread, reminding ourselves once again that what is said applies in principle to wine as well.

We look at the bread the priest uses in the Sacrament. It is white, round, soft. The whiteness is not the bread, it is simply a quality that the bread has; the same is true of the roundness and the softness. There is something there that has these and other properties, qualities, attributes- the philosophers call all of them accidents. Whiteness and roundness we see; softness brings in the sense of touch. We might smell bread, and the smell of new bread is wonderful, but once again the smell is not the bread, but simply a property. The something which has the whiteness, the softness, the roundness, has the smell; and if we try another sense, the sense of taste, the same something has that special effect upon our palate.

In other words, whatever the senses perceive-even with the aid of those instruments men are forever inventing to increase the reach of the senses- is always of this same sort, a quality, a property, an attribute; no sense perceives the something which has all these qualities, which is the thing itself. This something is what the philosophers call substance; the rest are accidents which it possesses. Our senses perceive accidents; only the mind knows the substance. This is true of bread, it is true of every created thing. Left to itself, the mind assumes that the substance is that which, in all its past experience, has been found to have that particular group of accidents. But in these two instances, the bread and wine of the Eucharist, the mind is not left to itself. By the revelation of Christ it knows that the substance has been changed, in the one case into the substance of his body, in the other into the substance of his blood.
+++

And it goes on like this for quite some time, making philosophical statements about this or that.

It is interesting to me, for the purposes of drawing a distinction between this kind of explanation and what you can find in the Orthodox liturgical texts of my own Church ("the sanctification is by the Holy Spirit" -- period), how much transubstantiation relies on the knowledge and acceptance of these philosophical categories, without which nothing can be made of the doctrine at all (according to the above). After all, the piece starts off noting that this is all "besides the real presence", so this is something additional to the basic belief that Christ is truly present in the bread and wine, which is not a point of difference between the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox.

From having been RC and now not being so (I suppose to the those of the Chalcedonian confession such as yourselves it's a matter of opinion as to whether or not I am Orthodox now; I will continue to write in this manner in defense of my Church regardless), I think you could say that about a lot of things that distinguish Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy: the question of their differences is not usually at the level of what they are talking about (e..g, in this case, the Eucharist or the real presence of Christ in it or whatever you want to call it), but of how they talk about it. As I wrote in my earlier reply, I don't see why any of this is necessary at all, as it wouldn't even occur to me to make the kinds of distinctions or statements that to Roman Catholics quite reasonably underlie what they say about their faith. "Accidents", "substance", "properties"....er, okay, then. You have a good time with that. I'm gonna be over here, doing this:

hqdefault.jpg

And while I'm doing this, I'm going to be giving the responses from the section of the liturgy I already presented ("Amen, I believe", etc.), which is what my faith requires, so that we all know in a crystal clear and experiential fashion what it is we are engaging in and why. We prostrate here before the holy body and blood of Christ our God, present before us, and given for us for the remission of sins and for eternal life. Philosophical arguments may have their place (I guess...for other people in other traditions), but that place is not here, and not now.

Respectfully, that is the difference. There is a great deal of philosophy underlying RC ideas about many subjects that quite simply has no place in other traditions, and that is why you end up with these differences that maybe you cannot see as differences because they are ingrained in the way you talk about something, even something that we both agree on at a different level of discussion. They are not similarly ingrained in other peoples' faith.
Okay. Two questions here: 1) Does or does not the bread and wine BECOME the Body and Blood of Christ? 2) When one looks upon the Consecrated Eucharist, what does your eyes see, your lips touch, your tongue taste?
 
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Erose

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I disagree; transubstantiation (as dzheremi said) goes beyond that to explaining that becoming in terms of a particular metaphysics.
No it doesn't. I find it interesting that those who complain that Catholics try to explain too much, try to explain transubstantiation beyond what it actually says.

When one speaks about things, anything for that matter, one must understand what the WORDS MEAN. Thus we must start off with definitions, especially when we speak of something that is beyond our natural experiences. This is why WORDS were invented, and/or words were REDEFINED to explain what was being said when we said certain things about both the Trinity and the Incarnation. Persona, Hypostasis, Hypostatic Union are examples of this.

When I say I don't believe in transubstantiation, I don't mean that I don't believe the bread and wine becomes (to us) the body and blood of Christ. I mean that I don't understand that becoming in terms of neo-Aristotelian metaphysics.
I'm curious about what you mean by (to us)?
 
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dzheremi

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Okay. Two questions here: 1) Does or does not the bread and wine BECOME the Body and Blood of Christ? 2) When one looks upon the Consecrated Eucharist, what does your eyes see, your lips touch, your tongue taste?

Even in this posting this, you are kinda agreeing with my post by showing that what transubstantiation seeks to do is say something beyond that it becomes the body and blood of Christ. These questions or my answers to them are not what matters, because in my own tradition (which does not include the RC doctrine transubstantiation) what we affirm in prayer is what we required to believe, and there is nothing in there about "When one looks upon the Consecrated Eucharist, what does your eyes see, your lips touch, your tongue taste."

We affirm that it is the body and blood of Christ, and that's it. "Why does it still look like bread?" or "Why does it still look like wine?" are apparently not questions that anyone ever thought to ask in my own tradition, because that's focusing on the wrong things.
 
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Erose

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Even in this posting this, you are kinda agreeing with my post by showing that what transubstantiation seeks to do is say something beyond that it becomes the body and blood of Christ. These questions or my answers to them are not what matters, because in my own tradition (which does not include the RC doctrine transubstantiation) what we affirm in prayer is what we required to believe, and there is nothing in there about "When one looks upon the Consecrated Eucharist, what does your eyes see, your lips touch, your tongue taste."

We affirm that it is the body and blood of Christ, and that's it. "Why does it still look like bread?" or "Why does it still look like wine?" are apparently not questions that anyone ever thought to ask in my own tradition, because that's focusing on the wrong things.
So no answer then? Look, what I'm getting from you is this: All of your theology is based upon: "It is what we are told it is." Which is fine to a certain level, especially for those who don't care or want to know their faith fully. But this is not the path that the ancient Fathers took, for one reason or another, mostly to deal with heresy, but also to be able to understand what we can understand. To be intentionally ignorant, was not the teaching of the Ancient Fathers, quite the opposite as one can see just by reading them. If the path you are proposed was taken by the Ancient Fathers, we would not have the doctrines of the Trinity or the Incarnation. The Arians would still be strong and in existence, because they would have had the best explanation for both of these doctrines, because the orthodox Christians wouldn't have an answer.

Anyway, I get it, the Coptics never had a single person question the doctrine of the Eucharist, have never been challenged on it. So I get why your doctrine is still where it is today. That has not been the case in the West, where this doctrine has been challenged from all sides, both within and without the Church. We had to explore this doctrine just like the Ancient Fathers had to explore the meaning of the Trinity and Incarnation, and because of this we understand it more fully, so that we can defend our beliefs against the heretics that have attacked this Sacrament.

Anyway, to criticize the Catholic Church for defending its faith, would just be like criticizing the Ancient Fathers for defending the Faith of the Church from all the heretical teachings they dealt with in their times.
 
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All4Christ

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When one speaks about things, anything for that matter, one must understand what the WORDS MEAN. Thus we must start off with definitions, especially when we speak of something that is beyond our natural experiences. This is why WORDS were invented, and/or words were REDEFINED to explain what was being said when we said certain things about both the Trinity and the Incarnation. Persona, Hypostasis, Hypostatic Union are examples of this

I disagree that detailed definitions are always required. The latter definition about the Trinity was necessary to keep orthodox beliefs. It was an exception to the rule to define the Trinity in such detail compared to most theology in the Church. You can find in both Orthodox Churches that we can affirm that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ, yet not define it further than what the dogma, liturgy and Scripture state. We believe simply that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, changed by the Holy Spirit (in the EO...the OO I believe is similar based on dzheremi's post). The Council of Trent went far beyond "The Eucharist becomes the Body and Blood of Christ." The Trent definition of transubstantion goes into much more detail than "the Eucharist becomes the true Body and true Blood of Christ".

The Church Fathers teach some more than that one statement, but it is captured in the liturgical texts and our prayers.

As St Justin Martyr said: "And this food is called among us the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." - (First Apology, 66)"

And as St Clement says:

"The Blood of the Lord, indeed, is twofold. There is His corporeal Blood, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and His spiritual Blood, that with which we are anointed. That is to say, to drink the Blood of Jesus is to share in His immortality. The strength of the Word is the Spirit just as the blood is the strength of the body. Similarly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. The one, the Watered Wine, nourishes in faith, while the other, the Spirit, leads us on to immortality. The union of both, however, - of the drink and of the Word, - is called the Eucharist, a praiseworthy and excellent gift. Those who partake of it in faith are sanctified in body and in soul. By the will of the Father, the divine mixture, man, is mystically united to the Spirit and to the Word.",

-"The Instructor of the Children". [2,2,19,4] ante 202 A.D.,

"The Word is everything to a child: both Father and Mother, both Instructor and Nurse. 'Eat My Flesh,' He says, 'and drink My Blood.' The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients. He delivers over His Flesh, and pours out His Blood; and nothing is lacking for the growth of His children. O incredible mystery!",

-"The Instructor of the Children" [1,6,41,3] ante 202 A.D.. ,"


This captured the essential definition required to retain Orthodox beliefs. It was given to the apostolic church at the beginning of the Christian Church. That definition would combat the heresies encountered by the church, such in the Middle Ages as well, up to today.

Reaffirm what the early church teaches and we should be on track. I understand the West encountered more heresies in this matter - and thus defined it further. I am not an expert at this - but I believe what the Church Fathers said already combat those heresies.
 
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Erose

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I disagree that detailed definitions are always required. The latter definition about the Trinity was necessary to keep orthodox beliefs. It was an exception to the rule to define the Trinity in such detail compared to most theology in the Church.
Ah you see that is the point here. Again, all I can go off of is what you guys have claimed, that in neither Patriarchy, no one has ever challenged the basic teaching of the Eucharist. In the West this has not been the case, as already explained in detail.


We believe simply that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, changed by the Holy Spirit (in the EO...the OO I believe is similar based on dzheremi's post). [/QUOTE] Which is the definition of transubstantiation. When you use the word "changed" then guess what it is what that word means. The bread and wine are "changed". Into what? The Body and Blood of Christ. That is transubstantiation in a nutshell. When you take a piece of wood and burn it, it changes into ash. Ash is not wood nor wood ash, thus a change. That is all that is being claimed here. Christ is physically and spiritually present in the Eucharist, not just spiritually, but physically as well. That is the teaching of the Church from the get go. This is important in understanding why we should partake of the Divine Meal. God did not make us automatons or slaves to do what He wills us to do without understanding why He wills us to do what He wants us to do and believe. The whole Bible is a treatise of explaining Himself to us.

The Council of Trent went far beyond "The Eucharist becomes the Body and Blood of Christ." The Trent definition of transubstantion goes into much more detail than "the Eucharist becomes the true Body and true Blood of Christ".[/QUOTE] No, no it didn't. What it did, was defend the faith from heresy. Nothing more and nothing less, by reaffirming the teaching of the Church against Calvin, Zwingli and Luther's false teachings on the Eucharist.

The Church Fathers teach some more than that one statement, but it is captured in the liturgical texts and our prayers.
Okay, but from the understanding that you guys are trying to proclaim, then these Church Fathers were wrong by going beyond that one statement. Let it be what it is, is that not the sum of Orthodox theology? If this is the case then all the Church Fathers are wrong in expounding the faith beyond the creed.
 
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All4Christ

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Okay, but from the understanding that you guys are trying to proclaim, then these Church Fathers were wrong by going beyond that one statement. Let it be what it is, is that not the sum of Orthodox theology? If this is the case then all the Church Fathers are wrong in expounding the faith beyond the creed.
I didn't say just one statement. I said one statement plus what is in the liturgy, prayers, etc. What I posted is captured in the prayers, Liturgy, Holy Tradition etc from the beginning. I don't see the need to go beyond what the Church Fathers said. It already defined Orthodox beliefs.
 
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dzheremi

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So no answer then?

That's my point, to try to emphasize where the difference lies (because it's most emphatically not in our belief in the 'real presence', to use RC terminology; all of the faith traditions represented in this conversation believe in that): We don't need to have answers to questions that nobody is asking, since that kind of philosophical questioning (and the answers to it) is alien to our faith.

Look, what I'm getting from you is this: All of your theology is based upon: "It is what we are told it is."

What Christ our God, the holy scriptures, the holy fathers, and so on tell us, yes. Down to this very day, and forever after that.

Which is fine to a certain level, especially for those who don't care or want to know their faith fully.

Excuse me, but we do know our faith fully. It simply does not include the philosophical speculations that are unique to your Church.

But this is not the path that the ancient Fathers took, for one reason or another, mostly to deal with heresy, but also to be able to understand what we can understand.

Show me where they speak of "accidents" and such in this philosophical manner as the Roman Catholic scholastics and apologists do, then. If we have somehow missed this for 2,000 years, I would like to know about it. From what I have seen in this thread presented by Roman Catholics such as yourself (posts 62 and 63), such philosophical speculation does not predate a certain time period that is far after when I and my Church have quite reasonably stopped paying attention to theological and philosophical developments in the Christian West.

To be intentionally ignorant, was not the teaching of the Ancient Fathers, quite the opposite as one can see just by reading them.

This is offensive and uncalled for. Not having developed as the Roman Catholic Church has is "to be intentionally ignorant"? No. I can't agree. Your Church's doctrine and explanations are fine for it, but that's just it: They're yours. They're not mine/my Church's, and not having them as part of our tradition does not make us "intentionally ignorant" any more than having them makes your Church "intentionally neurotic" or "intentionally engaging in sophistry". The fact that your philosopher-theologians can't leave well enough alone may be framed as a wound to your Christianity (and not even by me as an OO person; read Pat. Bartholomew's Phos Hilaron address sometime), and yet you don't see anyone who has disagreed with you so far in this thread making such statements.

Recognize that your particular church is not the center of the universe, please.

If the path you are proposed was taken by the Ancient Fathers, we would not have the doctrines of the Trinity or the Incarnation.

How do you figure?

The Arians would still be strong and in existence, because they would have had the best explanation for both of these doctrines, because the orthodox Christians wouldn't have an answer.

See, here is where I think we are getting to the foundation of everything that separates us on these types of issues: the truth is not with those who are deemed to have "the best explanation" (according to whom? Arianism makes zero sense to me), but with those who maintain the faith in the face of any heresy, no matter how persuasive it may be.

I've retold this story in several places on this website already, but I can see it bears repeating at least once more in the present context. From the Desert Fathers, we read:

One day some old men came to see Abba Anthony. In the midst of them was Abba Joseph. Wanting to test them, the old man suggested a text from the Scriptures, and, beginning with the youngest, he asked them what it meant. Each gave his opinion as he was able. But to each one the old man said, ‘You have not understood it.’ Last of all he said to Abba Joseph, ‘How would you explain this saying?’ and he replied, ‘I do not know.’ Then Abba Anthony ‘Indeed Abba Joseph has found the way, for he has said: “I do said, not know.”

Anyway, to criticize the Catholic Church for defending its faith, would just be like criticizing the Ancient Fathers for defending the Faith of the Church from all the heretical teachings they dealt with in their times.

I am not criticizing the Roman Catholic Church for having this doctrine. I am pointing out that it is specific to the RCC and is not held to by others.
 
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All4Christ

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All4Christ said:
I didn't say just one statement. I said one statement plus what is in the liturgy, prayers, etc. What I posted is captured in the prayers, Liturgy, Holy Tradition etc from the beginning. I don't see the need to go beyond what the Church Fathers said. It already defined Orthodox beliefs.
Also, please note that I am just sharing our perspective here
 
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Paidiske

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I'm curious about what you mean by (to us)?

One of the arguments which was highly divisive during the Reformation was, if a crumb of the Eucharist fell to the floor and a church mouse ate it, what would the mouse be eating? Would it be receiving Christ?

The Anglican answer would be no. The Holy Spirit works a change in the elements but also in those who receive them; one of our foundational doctrinal statements says this:

"The Wicked, and such as be void of a lively faith, although they do carnally and visibly press with their teeth (as Saint Augustine saith) the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ, yet in no wise are they partakers of Christ: but rather, to their condemnation, do eat and drink the sign or Sacrament of so great a thing."

So while Christ is present in the Sacrament, that presence is received only by those with a "lively faith."
 
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