- Mar 11, 2003
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Absolutely. Certainly it has a change of nature and change of elements.
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Absolutely. Certainly it has a change of nature and change of elements.Even when St. Ambrose speaks of a change in nature and St. Gregory of Nyssa speaks of a change in elements?
Most words have multiple meanings. It is the duty of the one hoping to understand what is being proclaimed to understand what the words mean in the context in which they are used. That is just the nature of learning.Substance has multiple meanings. It allows for multiple understandings.
So consubstantiation then?Having an additional nature does not negate the first nature. Two natures of Christ for example.
Forgive me...
But it is not a change in substance?Absolutely. Certainly it has a change of nature and change of elements.
So consubstantiation then?
Does not Jesus have a soul? Is He not divine?Very well.
We do receive the Body and Blood of the Risen Christ (the reason for leavened bread, I understand). Obviously, since Christ is not dead, we receive the living Christ, but it is clarified in some places.
Where does it explain what soul and divinity means, can I ask? It seems to me as an outsider that if that isn't explained, it could mean all kinds of things. If it only means living, I don't quite understand why it isn't just "the living Christ" as we would say.
I don't mean this as criticism, just asking. It feels like nit-picking and I might not go into all of this myself, but the question was "what's the difference" so I'd have to understand.
Now we are back to Calvin's view of the Eucharist.Can something not take on a spiritual nature?
We worship in spirit and in truth.
If the Holy Spirit changes you spiritually would I be able to tell by looking at your appearance?
Forgive me...
Now we are back to Calvin's view of the Eucharist.
So consubstantiation then?
Does not Jesus have a soul? Is He not divine?
I do not consider our view to follow Calvin's view. It is the Body and Blood of Christ, changed by the Holy Spirit...it isn't just Jesus' spiritual presence in the bread and wine.Now we are back to Calvin's view of the Eucharist.
Amen. One of my favorite prayers as wellI believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. I believe also that this is truly Thine own pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious Blood. Therefore I pray Thee: have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance. And make me worthy to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen.
Nope, he didn't come up with that... it's Orthodox. Nuggets of truth can be found everywhere in the Christian world. A broken clock is correct twice a day.
Forgive me...
So Christ is only spiritually present in the Eucharist? Where then is His Flesh and Blood?Nope, he didn't come up with that... it's Orthodox. Nuggets of truth can be found everywhere in the Christian world. A broken clock is correct twice a day.
Forgive me...
No, not really. The question I have is this: What does the bread and wine change into?See you are still trying to fit us into someone's western box.
It changes. Truly. Period.
Do you not see this itself is a difference between us?
No, not really. The question I have is this: What does the bread and wine change into?
Yes of course. But you are reasoning your way to a conclusion.
Did Jesus say, "Take eat, this is my body, which also contains my soul and divinity"?
Which of the Fathers said it?
Same here.I am not trying to offend, but we take what we have received, guard it faithfully, and pass it down, without change. That is a very core value for us.
I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here, because like I wrote somewhere else, nearly every word has more than one meaning depending on how it is used and by whom. Definitions are extremely important, and that is why these things are taught.I don't want to get into all of what people can assume by "soul and divinity". Just take a look around Protestantism, how they take this verse or that, and all the many different ideas they pull out of it? What might that kind of thinking do with "soul and divinity"? What has Catholicism done with it? I don't know - I'm asking you? Does it really just mean "Christ is alive"? It seems to say more.
I apologize that I made you feel this way. I am really trying to understand what you believe, and quite honestly I'm getting way too many answers to that question.This has gotten stupid and rather boring.
Forgive me...
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