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The Eucharist: Symbolic, Real Presence, Transubstantiation

LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by MarkRohfrietsch Rick, please don't think I'm picking on you, but if this is to be taken figuratively, then should not everything Christ said be taken that way? ...And if that's the case, then how are we to believe that He said anything litterally, ever?
There is no reason to force all of anyone's words into either category regardless of context.
All you have to do to sort it out is familiarize yourself with both figurative & literal speech. For example, the definition of metaphor instantly identifies the eucharistic expressions as that figure of speech - metaphor.
It doesn't even make any sense to take it literaly unless you make yourself believe a miracle happens, & even then the miracle itself is miraculously made undetectable!
It would seem that God prophecied He would speak to the Israelites with parables and riddles and Jesus gave the meaning of them to His Dispciples most times :)


Isaiah 28:11 And with stammering/deriding lip and in another tongue, another He shall speak to this people.
Ezekiel 17:2 Son of adam, propound thou a riddle and speak thou a proverb/parable unto house of Israel

Matthew 13:35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying "I will open My mouth in parables, I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world."
 
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Tangible

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Rick Otto

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That's a very Sacramental thing to say, Rick.
smile.gif
And you are more than ritualy right, Tang my man.
 
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Slaol121

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I believe that the power and blessings of God can be dispelled through the elements of the Eucharist, but it is a stretch to accept that the bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Christ.

Even the Jews with the Ark of the covenant believed that the Ark contained the power of God - not that the Ark was actually God, himself. Worship of the Eucharistic elements as God is idolatry.
 
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Erose

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I believe that the power and blessings of God can be dispelled through the elements of the Eucharist, but it is a stretch to accept that the bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Christ.

Even the Jews with the Ark of the covenant believed that the Ark contained the power of God - not that the Ark was actually God, himself. Worship of the Eucharistic elements as God is idolatry.
So Jesus lied?
 
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Slaol121

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So Jesus lied?
"Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, ‘This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."
Luke 22:19-20 (NRSV)
Jesus is clearly saying that this practice is to be done in remembrance of what He was about to do - it was a picture to remind the apostles of how his body was broken and his blood was spilt. Had Jesus really been explaining a mystery of bread turning into God the Almighty, I'm sure he would have taken time to explain what was happening a little more - after all, it's not a normal practice for people to eat God. The group of mostly uneducated fishermen seated around the table would have found the concept a little difficult to swallow.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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There is no evidence that the Jesus taught, or the Apostles believed in transubstantiation at the Last Supper.

I agree. All Lutherans do. Pretty much all non-RCC members do.




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Erose

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I don't think so. But then He never said anything about change or alchemy or Aristotle or appearances, did He? I don't think He lied.





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Neither did He use terms such as under, over, with, in, along side, symbolizes, or represents either.
 
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Erose

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"Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, ‘This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."
Luke 22:19-20 (NRSV)
Jesus is clearly saying that this practice is to be done in remembrance of what He was about to do - it was a picture to remind the apostles of how his body was broken and his blood was spilt. Had Jesus really been explaining a mystery of bread turning into God the Almighty, I'm sure he would have taken time to explain what was happening a little more - after all, it's not a normal practice for people to eat God. The group of mostly uneducated fishermen seated around the table would have found the concept a little difficult to swallow.
No where does Jesus use to term symbolize or represent. Either Jesus is telling the truth when he says This is my body or He was lying. Which is it?
 
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Slaol121

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No where does Jesus use to term symbolize or represent. Either Jesus is telling the truth when he says This is my body or He was lying. Which is it?
"...But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.”..."
Matthew 16:23 (NRSV)
I suppose you would also argue that the body of Peter was transubstantiated into Satan in this verse? Either Peter is literally Satan, or Jesus is lying... right? ;)
 
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Rick Otto

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No where does Jesus use to term symbolize or represent. Either Jesus is telling the truth when he says This is my body or He was lying. Which is it?
He is telling the truth by way of metaphor.
Either He didn't know the difference between blood & wine or He was using metaphor. Which is it?
That was a pretty good "cornering manuever". How'd you like it being used on yourself?:D
 
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MrPolo

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I suppose you would also argue that the body of Peter was transubstantiated into Satan in this verse? Either Peter is literally Satan, or Jesus is lying... right?
The reason this line of thinking does not work against Catholicism is because we know that people are capable of speaking symbolically sometimes and literally in other times. (Although in your example, I believe there are exegetes who believe Jesus was literally addressing Satan influencing Peter's speech, but I digress since there are other examples that you could have used such as Jesus saying "I am the door" (Jn 10:9). It's hardly sensible to say that if Catholics believe Jesus to have been speaking literally in John 6 that they therefore cannot think Jesus is capable of speaking symbolically somewhere else. That makes no sense to impose that rule on the Catholic.

There are a variety of reasons why John 6 should be understood literally. Let me touch on one or two. In Catholic theology, we relate the New Testament in light of the Old Testament. This is called typology. You see Paul speak of this in Romans 5 when he identifies Jesus as the superior antetype of Adam. You see the author of Hebrews (ch 8) speak of this when he compared the sacrifices of the OT to the corresponding superior sacrifice of Christ. You also see Jesus speak of this earlier in the John 6 discourse when he spoke of the bread that fell from heaven. One thing you will always see in the order of typology is that the New Testament antitypes are superior to their Old Testament types. Jesus is superior to Adam. Christ's sacrifice is superior to the OT sacrifices. And the bread of life in the NT is superior to the bread that fell from heaven in the form of manna.

Now, if we apply this "it's just a symbol" rationale to John 6, we cause a fatal problem in the order of theology. The NT "bread" suddenly becomes inferior to the OT manna. After all, the OT manna was 1) of supernatural origin and 2) of benefit for temporal life. When we insist the bread in John 6 is "just a symbol" we make it worse than the OT manna because we say its origin is less-than-supernatural and we deny that it is of benefit for eternal life. In other words, a symbol-only interpretation of the John 6 bread renders it the inferior type to the OT manna, which Christ made the typological comparison to in verses 49-51.

Secondly, the audience themselves understood Jesus literally. They walked away thinking he wanted them to eat his flesh. If, as the "symbol-only" folks argue, Jesus was speaking symbolically as he often did, then of course the reaction of the audience would have been: "Oh! He is speaking symbolically as he often does!" It makes zero sense for the audience to suddenly take him literally if he were speaking symbolically as he often did, and as his followers heard him speak before.

That's just two reasons why we can understand the bread of life as literally Christ himself, and that's just if we look at John 6 alone----one of a multitude of Scriptures regarding Christ and the Eucharist.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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The reason this line of thinking does not work against Catholicism is because we know that people are capable of speaking symbolically sometimes and literally in other times.


I agree. So, which is it? Is Jesus speaking literally or a mix of symbolically and literally as the RCC and Zwingian Protestants insist? Does Jesus mean what He says after the Consecration or just some of the time? Does Jesus mean "is" or "has undergone a transubstantiation?" Does Jesus mean "wine" or does He mean, "the Aristotelian ACCIDENT and species of wine?"





There are a variety of reasons why John 6 should be understood literally.

Okay. But how does it support that anything has undergone a transubstantiation leaving behind Aristotelian accidents, that Jesus is speaking symbolically?






Secondly, the audience themselves understood Jesus literally

They understood Him to say that the bread and wine undergo a transubstantiation when the word "is" is used, leaving behind Aristotelian accidents? How did they understand Jesus was speaking about the Holy Eucharist? It didn't exist yet.






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