The Ethical Reason behind No Sex Before Marriage

[21stcenturyGentile]

hello everyone. i'm just wanting to start a discussion about the topic specifically "no sex before marriage" and the ethical/philosophy behind it.

to give a brief info, i've been a Christian for about 13 years now. i'm probably more "liberal" than most, but my liberalness isn't the reason why i'm questioning this idea that is taught in the predominant church.

and before i get into my questioning of this view, i'm not trying to justify myself by having sex so please don't go and assume this. sorry for this disclaimer it's just, we all know this topic gets underneath people's skins eventually and i'm hoping it doesn't happen here.

i've heard many of the reasons behind this view. one view i've heard and people using scripture to back it up is because sexual immorality is wrong. now while i agree with that, i have yet to see a reason why sex before marriage automatically gets the verdict as sexual immorality and it leaves me begging the question "what is sexual lust" to individuals that define sex before marriage as "sexual immorality"?

some other reasons i've heard is because that is the way God made for human sexuality. i have a hard time believeing such a thing because it's all speculated/metaphorical reasoning possibly hinting towards some view of Adam and Eve.

then i've heard the cultural issues that the scriptures were written in and how they can be played into our society. yet nobody stands by the cultural aspects of the scripture thus making the point rather pointless. if this is a major part of the reasoning because it is the Bible, and since it came from the prophets/God or whatever one wants to believe, it has to stand on every other level whether it relates to the topic or not...and yet no one stands by every literal verse of the scripture but then one will try to justify why they don't.

then i see the concern of marrying so that one can have sex. now it's impossible to say that everyone that waits till marriage is just marrying to finally have sex. i am in no manner trying to say such a gross assumption. but the idea leads me to beg that question. i mean a couple remaining in the flames of temptation because of their ethical view, they realize they want each other then they marry and then they can finally express their sexuality. for some reason that doesn't seem right. why should being recognized by the state or your own mental project that your recognized by God to fondling with your lover's privates in any way or make love? (i know that may have came out kind of crass, but i'm not meaning to be rude or sarcastic here.) the bible, from a literal view clearly gives way to divorce and now in our culture, 1 out of 3 marriages end the first time around correct? so is the institution (regardless of the statistic that seems pretty infamous now) of marriage really worth investing one's sexuality into?

i'm strongly against sexual immorality. i cannot stand to see how humanity lives their sexuality out so carelessly. it negatively affects people's lives so much.

but i see more working one's conscience out in this, than some ultimate ethical worldview for all of humanity. i see sex as the act that binds a man and woman as one and puts a lot of obligations and responsiblities on one's head...which makes it such a tricky road to go down if the couple or one of the couple isn't sure about a lifelong committment (regardless of a symbolic piece of metal on their finger, or state benefits or approval of the church.) and when one fails that, they need to get on their knees and repent and change their lives. not for the fear of hell but because they failed the 2 greatest commandments of Christ. imho, hell isn't something to be afraid, but createing a life of hell on someone else's life because of their failure is something much more to be concerned about to not do/create.

but it's still an issue that i see no philosophical/ethical or even scriptural ground on.

so i'm just asking for those of you who are strictly no sex before marriage, to just have a kind, godly, brother to brother, brother to sister, sister to sister discussion and debate if the time would need about this topic. i have no intention of changing my views, but i am curious to see the ethical/philosophical reasoning behind a view that i do not hold.

God Bless you all! <><

 

[DZoolander]

I tend to hold a lot of similar views.

I think you pretty much summed it up when you said "I see sex as the act that binds a man and woman as one and puts a lot of obligations and responsibilities on one's head...which makes it such a tricky road to go down if the couple or one of the couple isn't sure about a lifelong commitment."

That's pretty much the crux of the "no sex before marriage" concept, in my humble opinion. Sex has a lot of potential consequences...which if they come to fruition in a "non-committed" environment...really can be difficult to muddle through.

 

[dies-l]

I have questioned this myself, yet I remain firmly committed to the belief that sex outside of marriage is outside of God's plan. It seems that most biblical arguments in this area are based on the idea that sex outside of marriage is sexual immorality per se. But, these arguments seem to take it as a truism, without really explaining biblically why they come to this conclusion. Another common biblical argument is that sex outside of marriage is adultery. Although the Bible does not specifically define adultery as such, this argument is a bit more convincing when one considers that in First Century Jewish society, a sexual act before marriage was treated as an act of adultery against your future spouse. Therefore, to the audience that Paul was writing to, whenever he wrote about adultery or sexual immorality, this would have been understood in the cultural context to refer to pre-marital sex.

But, perhaps a better way to look at it is to think about what the bible teaches about the sexual act itself:

16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."[b] 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

This is to say by the sexual act, whether it be with a prostitute, a boyfriend/girlfriend, or a spouse unites you and your mate as "one flesh." This indicates that the sexual act unites two people in a deeply profound and meaningful way. And, we were just not made to be united in this way with more than one other person.

This reflects the fact that sex is a deeply intimate experience. The enjoyment of sex is enhanced when the man and the woman are engaged in a relationship of permanence and trust. And, I believe the deepest levels of permanence and trust occur only in a healthy marriage relationship. This is further reflected by studies that have shown the greatest levels of sexual satisfaction among couples who are married and who did not live together prior to marriage. The gist is that stability builds trust, and trust enhances the sexual experience. God's plan is for us to have the best sex possible, which only occurs in a healthy marriage relationship.

One must also consider the procreative element of sex. Even though we have means nowadays to separate this aspect by and large from the sexual act itself (I am not advocating for or against birth control here), sex was designed to prepare us to become parents. Healthy parenting requires a deep level of stability, trust, and cooperation between parents. The deep intimacy of the sexual act prepares us for this. Sex outside of a permanent relationship (i.e., marriage) necessarily lacks the deepest levels of intimacy that occur in a godly marriage.

One more note, and perhaps something I should have made a higher priority on this post is that the act of abstaining itself helps to build the trust and security that will eventually help to create a stable marriage.

So, I think there are lots of good reasons to abstain from sex. There are more reasons that I have been able to detail here. I will note that I also believe in long courtships and long engagements for precisely the reason that the OP suggested. We should never marry someone just to be able to have sex with them. Instead we should marry a person because we have established a deep intimate connection with that person that will be further deepened by the act of marital intimacy.

 

[KarrieTex]

hello everyone. i'm just wanting to start a discussion about the topic specifically "no sex before marriage" and the ethical/philosophy behind it.

to give a brief info, i've been a Christian for about 13 years now. i'm probably more "liberal" than most, but my liberalness isn't the reason why i'm questioning this idea that is taught in the predominant church.

and before i get into my questioning of this view, i'm not trying to justify myself by having sex so please don't go and assume this. sorry for this disclaimer it's just, we all know this topic gets underneath people's skins eventually and i'm hoping it doesn't happen here.

i've heard many of the reasons behind this view. one view i've heard and people using scripture to back it up is because sexual immorality is wrong. now while i agree with that, i have yet to see a reason why sex before marriage automatically gets the verdict as sexual immorality and it leaves me begging the question "what is sexual lust" to individuals that define sex before marriage as "sexual immorality"?

some other reasons i've heard is because that is the way God made for human sexuality. i have a hard time believeing such a thing because it's all speculated/metaphorical reasoning possibly hinting towards some view of Adam and Eve.

then i've heard the cultural issues that the scriptures were written in and how they can be played into our society. yet nobody stands by the cultural aspects of the scripture thus making the point rather pointless. if this is a major part of the reasoning because it is the Bible, and since it came from the prophets/God or whatever one wants to believe, it has to stand on every other level whether it relates to the topic or not...and yet no one stands by every literal verse of the scripture but then one will try to justify why they don't.

then i see the concern of marrying so that one can have sex. now it's impossible to say that everyone that waits till marriage is just marrying to finally have sex. i am in no manner trying to say such a gross assumption. but the idea leads me to beg that question. i mean a couple remaining in the flames of temptation because of their ethical view, they realize they want each other then they marry and then they can finally express their sexuality. for some reason that doesn't seem right. why should being recognized by the state or your own mental project that your recognized by God to fondling with your lover's privates in any way or make love? (i know that may have came out kind of crass, but i'm not meaning to be rude or sarcastic here.) the bible, from a literal view clearly gives way to divorce and now in our culture, 1 out of 3 marriages end the first time around correct? so is the institution (regardless of the statistic that seems pretty infamous now) of marriage really worth investing one's sexuality into?

i'm strongly against sexual immorality. i cannot stand to see how humanity lives their sexuality out so carelessly. it negatively affects people's lives so much.

but i see more working one's conscience out in this, than some ultimate ethical worldview for all of humanity. i see sex as the act that binds a man and woman as one and puts a lot of obligations and responsiblities on one's head...which makes it such a tricky road to go down if the couple or one of the couple isn't sure about a lifelong committment (regardless of a symbolic piece of metal on their finger, or state benefits or approval of the church.) and when one fails that, they need to get on their knees and repent and change their lives. not for the fear of hell but because they failed the 2 greatest commandments of Christ. imho, hell isn't something to be afraid, but createing a life of hell on someone else's life because of their failure is something much more to be concerned about to not do/create.

but it's still an issue that i see no philosophical/ethical or even scriptural ground on.

so i'm just asking for those of you who are strictly no sex before marriage, to just have a kind, godly, brother to brother, brother to sister, sister to sister discussion and debate if the time would need about this topic. i have no intention of changing my views, but i am curious to see the ethical/philosophical reasoning behind a view that i do not hold.

God Bless you all! <><

How interesting that it is men who have answered this first.

There are 2 things I am seeing here. One the fear of commitment that a lot of women do not feel and two the eagerness to accomplish this act.

As an older, single, virgin, woman, I can give a different view.

There is no question in my mind. God said do not have sex outside of marriage. Thus with that command I can correctly surmise that sex outside of my marriage is prohibited.

I have not carried any thoughts of compatiablity being null and void in my marriage bed. I have not even consdiered divorcing my spouse, whoever he may be.

What I have considered is that this show of obedience is going to be blessed and all worries will be gone.

The OP has not touched on the only explaniation of this and that is God said no sex outside of marriage, which includes before and adultery. You are not looking at it as obedience to God. You are trying to look at it from a world's point of view.

 

[die2live]

This is an interesting topic. I was actually surprised to find that only in a few places does the Bible really indicate what sexual immorality is. Most of the time, it just says, sexual immorality is wrong. So what is sexual immorality? Adultery? Incest? Rape? inappropriate behavior with animals? Homosexuality?

I did find a few verses that give a reasonably clear indication of what sexual immorality is, and that it does in fact include premarital sex, as well as all of the above. But before I share those with you, I would like to give a very condensed version of my own sexual experience, and how that has led me to understand the immorality of premarital sex.

I never dated until I was nearly nineteen years old, and by that time, not only was I emotionally starved for "love", but I was also quite lustful as well. My new boyfriend was even more so. I continually refused to go "all the way," almost out of instinct based on what I had been taught and he continued to loose control of himself and kept pressuring me. A little less than two months into our relationship, we started discussing marriage. In my naivete, I became absolutely sure that we would in fact be married, although I knew it wasn't going to be anytime soon. So I started reasoning with myself. We're practically engaged, but simply can't afford to get married at the moment. I love him, and he loves me. We're going to be together and we're going to be committed. We just don't have that piece of paper yet. What's the big deal?

Long story short, God kept me a virgin long enough for us to finally break it off. Eventually, I found out he was never interested in marriage or even any relationship beyond friendship. He just wanted sex. He did what he did to get me in bed.

So what if I had gone through with it? Who knows how long we would have been "doing it" before he was finally satiated and broke up with me? Only at that point would I have realized, we were never going to get married, have a life together and we were certainly never committed to each other. We were just using each other.

Quick side note: I know I probably sound bitter, but I'm not. I was using him for emotional comfort as much as he was using me for physical pleasure. I realize that, and I hold nothing against him now.

Anyway, my point is that even if marriage is just that slip of paper, it will really define the relationship. I had no idea that my bf really just wanted sex, and that's not totally because I was simply stupid. If your partner really loves you and trusts you, then he/she will be willing to wait for you. And, of course, you should be doing the same thing for him/her.

Now, for the Bible verses, which tend a lot more reliable than my experiences.

Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage should be honored by all and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and the sexually immoral."
That and implies that sexual immorality is something other than adultery, and it has something to do with marriage.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
"Do you not know that the wicked will no inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders . . . will inherit the kingdom of God."
It appears that homosexuality is also not all there is to sexual immorality.

1 Corinthians 7:2
"But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband."
And 9b:
"For it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
And verse 36:
"If anyone thinks he is acting improperly toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if she is getting along in years and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning."
What does the phrase "acting improperly" means, in the context of this passage? And keep in mind that this verse is talking about people who are already engaged, definitely going to be married, practically already married.

I would also like to point out that the phrase "sexual immorality" can be translated as "fornication." That should also tell us something.

If premarital sex is in fact in God's plan, what then is the purpose of marriage? And if you are really committed, why not get married?

And, a little bit of practical application here. Affairs are twice as common among cohabiting couples or couples that did live together before getting married than among married couples. And premarital relations double the chances of divorce later on.

I can't honestly say I know why this is, or why God made that piece of paper so important. But, for whatever reason, it is and he did. I have a few guesses as to why. I think he did it out of love, to protect people who are in situations like mine. And I think he also did it so that couples can show their committment through marriage. Marriage is also a beautiful portrayal of God's relationship with us. It is not merely a legal document, it is also a spiritual covenant between a man, a woman and God.

 

[21stcenturyGentile]

How interesting that it is men who have answered this first.

There are 2 things I am seeing here. One the fear of commitment that a lot of women do not feel and two the eagerness to accomplish this act.

As an older, single, virgin, woman, I can give a different view.

There is no question in my mind. God said do not have sex outside of marriage. Thus with that command I can correctly surmise that sex outside of my marriage is prohibited.

I have not carried any thoughts of compatiablity being null and void in my marriage bed. I have not even consdiered divorcing my spouse, whoever he may be.

What I have considered is that this show of obedience is going to be blessed and all worries will be gone.

The OP has not touched on the only explaniation of this and that is God said no sex outside of marriage, which includes before and adultery. You are not looking at it as obedience to God. You are trying to look at it from a world's point of view.

thank you for your response Karrie.

one thing i want to comment/ask is, why are you convinced that this is as being obediant to God?

where/when did God say this?

are you convinced because of the way you've lived your life?

are you convinced because of how you view the scriptures?

 

[21stcenturyGentile]

I have questioned this myself, yet I remain firmly committed to the belief that sex outside of marriage is outside of God's plan. It seems that most biblical arguments in this area are based on the idea that sex outside of marriage is sexual immorality per se. But, these arguments seem to take it as a truism, without really explaining biblically why they come to this conclusion. Another common biblical argument is that sex outside of marriage is adultery. Although the Bible does not specifically define adultery as such, this argument is a bit more convincing when one considers that in First Century Jewish society, a sexual act before marriage was treated as an act of adultery against your future spouse. Therefore, to the audience that Paul was writing to, whenever he wrote about adultery or sexual immorality, this would have been understood in the cultural context to refer to pre-marital sex.

But, perhaps a better way to look at it is to think about what the bible teaches about the sexual act itself:




This is to say by the sexual act, whether it be with a prostitute, a boyfriend/girlfriend, or a spouse unites you and your mate as "one flesh." This indicates that the sexual act unites two people in a deeply profound and meaningful way. And, we were just not made to be united in this way with more than one other person.

This reflects the fact that sex is a deeply intimate experience. The enjoyment of sex is enhanced when the man and the woman are engaged in a relationship of permanence and trust. And, I believe the deepest levels of permanence and trust occur only in a healthy marriage relationship. This is further reflected by studies that have shown the greatest levels of sexual satisfaction among couples who are married and who did not live together prior to marriage. The gist is that stability builds trust, and trust enhances the sexual experience. God's plan is for us to have the best sex possible, which only occurs in a healthy marriage relationship.

One must also consider the procreative element of sex. Even though we have means nowadays to separate this aspect by and large from the sexual act itself (I am not advocating for or against birth control here), sex was designed to prepare us to become parents. Healthy parenting requires a deep level of stability, trust, and cooperation between parents. The deep intimacy of the sexual act prepares us for this. Sex outside of a permanent relationship (i.e., marriage) necessarily lacks the deepest levels of intimacy that occur in a godly marriage.

One more note, and perhaps something I should have made a higher priority on this post is that the act of abstaining itself helps to build the trust and security that will eventually help to create a stable marriage.

So, I think there are lots of good reasons to abstain from sex. There are more reasons that I have been able to detail here. I will note that I also believe in long courtships and long engagements for precisely the reason that the OP suggested. We should never marry someone just to be able to have sex with them. Instead we should marry a person because we have established a deep intimate connection with that person that will be further deepened by the act of marital intimacy.

thank you for your response. i have heard the argument being adultery. what i find interesting about those arguments is the prooftext of such verses are coming from discussions in the scripture in regards to marriage...not the single life. so i don't know why those arguments take the verses out of context to support a certain view.

i agree that one must consider the createing part of sex, but there are people who cannot have kids out there. but i do agree that one must consider it because there is a high chance for such things to occur with this act.

and i agree that sexual relations are always going to be better when there is a sense of lifelong committment believed between the two in the relationship. but you brought up an interesting point. that we are not to experience such things with more than one person.

how can this be so? there are grounds to end a marriage in divorce according to scriptures so technically, there is no reason to believe that we can't experience sexual intimacy with more than one person. now i say that, but i'm not talking about having sex because it's the thing to do or because of fleeting emotions, or because one gets horny. i'm talking on more of lines that marriage is seemed to be viewed as this lock and set thing for relationships with the view of no sex before marriage. that marriage means permenant. i have a hard time believeing such a thing because of the world around us and the scriptures. so there would have to be another reason, in my humble opinion to wait for sex when your in a lifelong committed relationship. people come to realize they want to be with each other for a lifetime before they marry. i don't see how marriage makes people realize they want to be with someone forever so then they can feel ok, we can have physical intimacy. then the desires for the marriage seem skewed.

you and i are in agreement that by restraining that shows trust, committment and all that. i can trust someone if i know they aren't looking to get into my pants, or if they aren't looking at me to get married so we can have sex. but i've also seen relationships that have had sex before marrriage, end up in marriage, and it be the most trusting, committed relationships i've ever seen. i don't see a difference between a couple who have sex before marriage because they are committed for a lifetime prior to vows then a couple having sex after marriage.

i hope i touched on all of our response and thanks for your response.

 

[21stcenturyGentile]

btw Karrie, i forgot to add this with my first response from your response and i apologize.

you mentioned this:

There are 2 things I am seeing here. One the fear of commitment that a lot of women do not feel and two the eagerness to accomplish this act.

did you mean that with the topic at hand, or my OP?

 

[21stcenturyGentile]

This is an interesting topic. I was actually surprised to find that only in a few places does the Bible really indicate what sexual immorality is. Most of the time, it just says, sexual immorality is wrong. So what is sexual immorality? Adultery? Incest? Rape? inappropriate behavior with animals? Homosexuality?

I did find a few verses that give a reasonably clear indication of what sexual immorality is, and that it does in fact include premarital sex, as well as all of the above. But before I share those with you, I would like to give a very condensed version of my own sexual experience, and how that has led me to understand the immorality of premarital sex.

I never dated until I was nearly nineteen years old, and by that time, not only was I emotionally starved for "love", but I was also quite lustful as well. My new boyfriend was even more so. I continually refused to go "all the way," almost out of instinct based on what I had been taught and he continued to loose control of himself and kept pressuring me. A little less than two months into our relationship, we started discussing marriage. In my naivete, I became absolutely sure that we would in fact be married, although I knew it wasn't going to be anytime soon. So I started reasoning with myself. We're practically engaged, but simply can't afford to get married at the moment. I love him, and he loves me. We're going to be together and we're going to be committed. We just don't have that piece of paper yet. What's the big deal?

Long story short, God kept me a virgin long enough for us to finally break it off. Eventually, I found out he was never interested in marriage or even any relationship beyond friendship. He just wanted sex. He did what he did to get me in bed.

So what if I had gone through with it? Who knows how long we would have been "doing it" before he was finally satiated and broke up with me? Only at that point would I have realized, we were never going to get married, have a life together and we were certainly never committed to each other. We were just using each other.

Quick side note: I know I probably sound bitter, but I'm not. I was using him for emotional comfort as much as he was using me for physical pleasure. I realize that, and I hold nothing against him now.

Anyway, my point is that even if marriage is just that slip of paper, it will really define the relationship. I had no idea that my bf really just wanted sex, and that's not totally because I was simply stupid. If your partner really loves you and trusts you, then he/she will be willing to wait for you. And, of course, you should be doing the same thing for him/her.

Now, for the Bible verses, which tend a lot more reliable than my experiences.

Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage should be honored by all and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and the sexually immoral."
That and implies that sexual immorality is something other than adultery, and it has something to do with marriage.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
"Do you not know that the wicked will no inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders . . . will inherit the kingdom of God."
It appears that homosexuality is also not all there is to sexual immorality.

1 Corinthians 7:2
"But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband."
And 9b:
"For it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
And verse 36:
"If anyone thinks he is acting improperly toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if she is getting along in years and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning."
What does the phrase "acting improperly" means, in the context of this passage? And keep in mind that this verse is talking about people who are already engaged, definitely going to be married, practically already married.

I would also like to point out that the phrase "sexual immorality" can be translated as "fornication." That should also tell us something.

If premarital sex is in fact in God's plan, what then is the purpose of marriage? And if you are really committed, why not get married?

And, a little bit of practical application here. Affairs are twice as common among cohabiting couples or couples that did live together before getting married than among married couples. And premarital relations double the chances of divorce later on.

I can't honestly say I know why this is, or why God made that piece of paper so important. But, for whatever reason, it is and he did. I have a few guesses as to why. I think he did it out of love, to protect people who are in situations like mine. And I think he also did it so that couples can show their committment through marriage. Marriage is also a beautiful portrayal of God's relationship with us. It is not merely a legal document, it is also a spiritual covenant between a man, a woman and God.

i'm going to comment on your end part of your post. your personal reasoning with this from your experience i'm not going to debate about.

so why does premarital sex cause problems down the road? is one to believe that a couple that has sex because they are in a lifelong committment prior the vows are going to have problems down the road because they have sex before walking down the isle?

it is a spiritual covenant, but it's a spiritual covenant that can be broken so is it worth putting your sexuality stock into it for protection or for prosperity if sin can tear it apart?

i don't see the purpose of marriage to be something to give one a clear conscience to have with sex with someone. sex shouldn't be making up the entire relationship in that way in my opinion. in the spiritual sense, i see marriage as a symbolic ceremony done to express and to unite a committment that is pre-existing. and for the secular state it gives benefits, and it makes it so much more difficult to "break up"...but i just don't know if i can see that as a reason to not have sex before the ceremony. i don't believe in having sex with whoever you date. i'm more aiming this discussion (and i apologize if i was vague about it in my op) is geared more towards solid relationships prior to the ceremony and having sex with the significant other thus assuming that there is a lifelong committment started way before the plans for the ceremony began.

 

[dies-l]

how can this be so? there are grounds to end a marriage in divorce according to scriptures so technically, there is no reason to believe that we can't experience sexual intimacy with more than one person. now i say that, but i'm not talking about having sex because it's the thing to do or because of fleeting emotions, or because one gets horny. i'm talking on more of lines that marriage is seemed to be viewed as this lock and set thing for relationships with the view of no sex before marriage. that marriage means permenant. i have a hard time believeing such a thing because of the world around us and the scriptures. so there would have to be another reason, in my humble opinion to wait for sex when your in a lifelong committed relationship. people come to realize they want to be with each other for a lifetime before they marry. i don't see how marriage makes people realize they want to be with someone forever so then they can feel ok, we can have physical intimacy. then the desires for the marriage seem skewed.

Just to be clear: divorce happens, and there are a lot of views among Christians as to whether it is acceptable and in what situations. The few places in scripture where divorce is permitted, however, it is not treated as an ideal situation. I think it is fair to say that divorce is always a result of human sinfulness. So I have trouble accepting the argument that the fact divorce happens contradicts the fact that a healthy marriage is the best environment for sexual activity. The fact is that healthy marriages never end in divorce. I am not saying this to judge divorces; in fact, I am one myself. I am simply pointing to what seems to me to be common sense.

So, what about unhealthy marriages? I would argue that there is more permanence is an unhealthy marriage, then in a dating relationship. Beyond that, a Christian couple engaged in an unhealthy marriage ideally will seek healing in the marriage, which will, in time restore the stability, trust, and security in the relationship. But, this doesn't always happen -- in these cases, it suffices to say that the fact that other aspects of the couple's sinfulness ultimately destroys the marriage has no bearing on whether a decision to abstain prior to marriage had a positive impact.
Also, as a previous poster pointed out, just because one or both persons in a relationship believes it to be permanent, does not make it so. Marriage does serve a purpose of publicly acknowledging this permanence. It helps to ensure that both partners are 100% on the same page. The fact that marriage is not perfect does not alter the fact that it is a far better gauge of the permanence of a relationship than the couple's or the individuals' subjective opinions.

The point is that marriage, as God designed it, is permanent. The fact that people deviate from God's plan and that God's grace allows people to heal from this is irrelevant to the discussion of whether premarital sex is a healthy part of God's plan.

 

[KarrieTex]

Again, you are looking at this through the world's eyes and not through God's eyes.

You say, "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both." The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit. --I Corin 6:13-18

Paul is speaking directly about sex outside of marriage. Sex outside of marriage is all inclusive.

1 Now for the matters you wrote about: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman." 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. -- I Corin 7: 1-2

Again Paul is speaking about sex outside of marriage.

How simple can it be that God is specifically saying sex outside the boundaries of marriage is not good and is not Godly and thus sinful?

I do not understand how you can not see what is very clear. God said no to sex outside the confines of marriage. In other words no sex before marriage and no sex with any other than your spouse.

I am convinced of my obedience because the Word of God has told me this is how I am to walk as a Godly woman.

I would need to look it up but the Bible (OT) has many laws regarding sexual immorality before marriage. At one point a woman and man who engage in it is to be stoned.

There is no interputing "do not" unless you are trying to find a way out of it.

 

[tiredwalker]

Here's my point of view. Sex rocks. Sex is fun. Sex can be destuctive. Sex can be productive. It's all in how you use it.

I personally don't think there is an ethical reason to save sex for marriage, and I don't think this is a black and white issue. Generally, it is safest to have sex within the bounds of marriage (a spouse can't just get up, grab clothes and leave; he/she has to work a little harder for that, but it also doesn't mean that all marriages are safer than single life). However, there are times when that is not practical or wrong. I honestly believe that the scriptures are trying to keep us from risky, complicated and dangerous situations, not just laying down a law. Casual sex can lead to disease, children with no family unit surrounding them, and emotional confusion (she's hearing wedding bells, he got to spooge and play with boobies today, etc). Some people are in committed relationships and cannot go to the next level of their relationship without that connection and marriage in not an option (or the date is just too far a way).

For example, my grandmother was widowed at the age of 27 when my grandpa was killed in Vietnam. For 30 years she was alone. During those years, she developed health problems (cancer, esophogus issues, etc) that made her dependent on the health benefits she received from the military.

When she turned 68 she met a wonderful man, and they wanted to get married. Unfortunately, the military would take all of her benefits away if she remarried and her wonderful man could not add her to his insurance. Both of them were and are on VERY limited incomes, and it would be impossible for her and him to afford for her to purchase her own health insurance (some of the pills she took when on Chemo were $25 each).

So, they didn't get married. They live in the same house. They are committed to each other, but they are not married. And yes, they sleep together (half of me says "eww," half of me says "right on, Grandma! You go girl").

Technically this should be a sin and they are "living in sin." However, I cannot imagine God getting ticked off about this. This is not abusing sexuality, and they are not acting in a risky manner. Obviously, this is not that common, but it does so a very gray area of the law

So, in all of the incoherent babbling I am trying to say that each situation must be looked at for what it is. Sex is precious, and it is powerful and it must be used wisely.

 

[tiredwalker]

Again, you are looking at this through the world's eyes and not through God's eyes.

Your interpretation of God's eyes that is.

 

[die2live]

i'm going to comment on your end part of your post. your personal reasoning with this from your experience i'm not going to debate about.

so why does premarital sex cause problems down the road? is one to believe that a couple that has sex because they are in a lifelong committment prior the vows are going to have problems down the road because they have sex before walking down the isle?

it is a spiritual covenant, but it's a spiritual covenant that can be broken so is it worth putting your sexuality stock into it for protection or for prosperity if sin can tear it apart?

i don't see the purpose of marriage to be something to give one a clear conscience to have with sex with someone. sex shouldn't be making up the entire relationship in that way in my opinion. in the spiritual sense, i see marriage as a symbolic ceremony done to express and to unite a committment that is pre-existing. and for the secular state it gives benefits, and it makes it so much more difficult to "break up"...but i just don't know if i can see that as a reason to not have sex before the ceremony. i don't believe in having sex with whoever you date. i'm more aiming this discussion (and i apologize if i was vague about it in my op) is geared more towards solid relationships prior to the ceremony and having sex with the significant other thus assuming that there is a lifelong committment started way before the plans for the ceremony began.

What do you believe the purpose of marriage to be? From your post, I gather that you see it as merely symbolic. In that case, why get married at all? Why did God make up marriage anyway?

I agree that marriage is more than a sexual relationship, but I don't see why that would mean it was ok to have sex before marriage. In a way, your position of the symbolism of marriage would support the prospect of waiting. Sex is a symbol of a man and woman's relationship, so is marriage. It would make sense then to have them go hand in hand.

And something else that occured to me: If you are in a serious relationship, why not get married? Why not wait for it?

As I said, I am not sure why the statistics show what they do. I only know that they do. Studies have shown that premarital relations raise the chances of divorce and unfaithfulness, and lowers the sexual satisfaction of the couple. My guess is that is because the committment is only perceived, it is not actually there. But you would have more luck discovering why by going to the sources of those studies (I'll give you the information in a later post) than by asking me.

And I couldn't help but notice that you had no response to the Bible verses I posted. I know it was a long post, maybe you had to skim through that part. Which is too bad, because it was probably the most worthwhile thing I posted. I would encourage you to look over that part and read the passages there on your own, particularly 1 Corinthians 7. It should shed some light on where God stands on this issue.

And, BTW, I don't mind you debating my personal experiences with me either. My viewpoint on what happened was decidedly subjective, and it's quite possible I misinterpreted something.

 

[die2live]

Just to be clear: divorce happens, and there are a lot of views among Christians as to whether it is acceptable and in what situations. The few places in scripture where divorce is permitted, however, it is not treated as an ideal situation. I think it is fair to say that divorce is always a result of human sinfulness. So I have trouble accepting the argument that the fact divorce happens contradicts the fact that a healthy marriage is the best environment for sexual activity. The fact is that healthy marriages never end in divorce. I am not saying this to judge divorces; in fact, I am one myself. I am simply pointing to what seems to me to be common sense.

So, what about unhealthy marriages? I would argue that there is more permanence is an unhealthy marriage, then in a dating relationship. Beyond that, a Christian couple engaged in an unhealthy marriage ideally will seek healing in the marriage, which will, in time restore the stability, trust, and security in the relationship. But, this doesn't always happen -- in these cases, it suffices to say that the fact that other aspects of the couple's sinfulness ultimately destroys the marriage has no bearing on whether a decision to abstain prior to marriage had a positive impact.
Also, as a previous poster pointed out, just because one or both persons in a relationship believes it to be permanent, does not make it so. Marriage does serve a purpose of publicly acknowledging this permanence. It helps to ensure that both partners are 100% on the same page. The fact that marriage is not perfect does not alter the fact that it is a far better gauge of the permanence of a relationship than the couple's or the individuals' subjective opinions.

The point is that marriage, as God designed it, is permanent. The fact that people deviate from God's plan and that God's grace allows people to heal from this is irrelevant to the discussion of whether premarital sex is a healthy part of God's plan.

 

[Leah]

Again, you are looking at this through the world's eyes and not through God's eyes.

You say, "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both." The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit. --I Corin 6:13-18

Paul is speaking directly about sex outside of marriage. Sex outside of marriage is all inclusive.

1 Now for the matters you wrote about: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman." 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. -- I Corin 7: 1-2

Again Paul is speaking about sex outside of marriage.

How simple can it be that God is specifically saying sex outside the boundaries of marriage is not good and is not Godly and thus sinful?

I do not understand how you can not see what is very clear. God said no to sex outside the confines of marriage. In other words no sex before marriage and no sex with any other than your spouse.

I am convinced of my obedience because the Word of God has told me this is how I am to walk as a Godly woman.

I would need to look it up but the Bible (OT) has many laws regarding sexual immorality before marriage. At one point a woman and man who engage in it is to be stoned.

There is no interputing "do not" unless you are trying to find a way out of it.

AMEN, Karrie!!

 

[Leah]

Your interpretation of God's eyes that is.

No, because the last time I read the Word, everything Karrie said is exactly what God says concerning sex outside of marriage. He doesn't like it and was against it then, He is against it now and will always be against it.

God doesn't change. We do.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I do not understand how you can not see what is very clear. God said no to sex outside the confines of marriage. In other words no sex before marriage and no sex with any other than your spouse.

But WHY does he say this?

 

[die2live]

But WHY does he say this?

Why, or where? The where, the best passage I found was 1 Corinthians 7, but there are others which you can find by skimming the other posts.

As for the why, that's a little more tricky, and I'm not sure anyone has the end-all answer for that except God. I have a few guesses though.

1. Obvious: protection from disease and pregnancy out of wedlock.

2. Legal protection for those who are being used for sex. The partner is obligated legally to provide certain things for his/her partner and cannot simply leave once his sexual appetite is satisfied.

3. It shows committment and love to be willing to wait throughout an engagement period for sex, and makes sex life afterward more exciting and fulfilling (studies do show that married people are more satisfied with their sex lives than unmarried people).

4. Marriage is a beautiful representation fo God's relationship with us. If it was not meant to be anything more than a piece of paper, that wouldn't speak very highly of His love for us.

Those are a few of my conjectures anyway. I'm sure others can add on to what I've said.

 

[21stcenturyGentile]

Just to be clear: divorce happens, and there are a lot of views among Christians as to whether it is acceptable and in what situations. The few places in scripture where divorce is permitted, however, it is not treated as an ideal situation. I think it is fair to say that divorce is always a result of human sinfulness. So I have trouble accepting the argument that the fact divorce happens contradicts the fact that a healthy marriage is the best environment for sexual activity. The fact is that healthy marriages never end in divorce. I am not saying this to judge divorces; in fact, I am one myself. I am simply pointing to what seems to me to be common sense.

So, what about unhealthy marriages? I would argue that there is more permanence is an unhealthy marriage, then in a dating relationship. Beyond that, a Christian couple engaged in an unhealthy marriage ideally will seek healing in the marriage, which will, in time restore the stability, trust, and security in the relationship. But, this doesn't always happen -- in these cases, it suffices to say that the fact that other aspects of the couple's sinfulness ultimately destroys the marriage has no bearing on whether a decision to abstain prior to marriage had a positive impact.
Also, as a previous poster pointed out, just because one or both persons in a relationship believes it to be permanent, does not make it so. Marriage does serve a purpose of publicly acknowledging this permanence. It helps to ensure that both partners are 100% on the same page. The fact that marriage is not perfect does not alter the fact that it is a far better gauge of the permanence of a relationship than the couple's or the individuals' subjective opinions.

The point is that marriage, as God designed it, is permanent. The fact that people deviate from God's plan and that God's grace allows people to heal from this is irrelevant to the discussion of whether premarital sex is a healthy part of God's plan.

first off, where does it show that God made marriage? Adam and Eve weren't married. they were made from each other so i see no comparision between the two ideas to prove that God designed marriage. it's a social invention. sacred as it may be, but God designing it? marriage is done in so many different ways.

secondly, the bible is very clear about adultery being a reason to divorce. hear me out. i don't see the scriptures as saying it is a last resort to divorce for this case. then you have all kinds of definition of adultery. Jesus himself said that if another man looks at another woman with lustful intent, then he has committed adultery already with her in his heart. so technically the scriptures can give reason to divorce for anything with adultery since really the definition of adultery according to scripture is far and wide.

so the point being, how can the institution of marriage be anything worth to keep our sexuality pure? as you mentioned there are a wide variety of views with this issue of divorce. if the institution of marriage is so important for this area, there shouldn't be any discussion amongst ending the covenant because of sin.

and people don't deviate from God's plan. if one committs adultery while in a marriage, it can be seen as part of God's plan for the person to divorce. why? why be stuck in that kind of sinful situation with all the affects that it has on the person?