The essential axiom of NT eschatology

[ebedmelech]

Isaiah 2 is fulfilled??? I'm at a loss for words! You say that Isaiah 3 is a continuation of 2, but I don't see what difference it makes. But if so (and it is), you must know that 4:1-6 continues 3. It is true that there are elements in both 2 & 3 which look like the 1st century (seige and conquest), but there are also elements which cannot be fit into the 1st century (verses 12-21, for instance). Also, look at 4:2-6. Your assertion is quite exploded.

If you really READ Isaiah, He tells you WHO his prophecy concerned and WHEN he prophesied...Isaiah 1:1:
The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz concerning Judah and Jerusalem, which he saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Does anyone doubt that siege and conquest are coming for present day Judah? When Judah is conquered, and as the preterist himself is hiding underground (19) from the terrifying power of God exercized against the earth, will the preterist recognize that he is living Isaiah 2? I have my doubts.

They best ought to...because the siege Isaiah spoke of was when Nebuchadnezzar took Judah captive and destroyed the temple taking all the treasury of the temple to Babylon. Or do you just ignore God's saying the land would lay waste 70 years???

Do you read your bible or just listen to what someone says? Jeremiah records this event,! So does 2 Kings 25, and 2 Chronicles 36.

Now of course within Isaiah's prophecy there's the promise of Messiah and restoration...but Isaiah 2 and 3 don't even mention any of that!

 

[gospelfer]

Isaiah 1:1 tells us when he saw the vision, not about what time or place he prophecized. That determination can only come from what Isaiah says in the passage, and the contents of the passage compared against history. If we say Isaiah can only prophecy about Judah and Jerusalem, or the time of the Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, we are in deep, deep trouble!

1. Isaiah prophecizes about many things outside Judah and Jerusalem: for instance, right her in 2 he talks about Tarshish, and "mankind". Both have a wider scope than Israel.

2. Isaiah prophecize about many things outside the time of Uzziah, Jotha, Ahaz, and Hezekiah. The destruction of Judah for instance -- which came after Hezekiah. And what to do with Isaiah 53? Was that about the time of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah? I hope not. If not why not? If you work back from Isaiah 53, you will see that he is talking to Hezekiah.

Is it not possible that the assertion about Judah and Jerusalem is general -- and as such true? Is it not possible that his vision were seen during the time of those kings, rather than being restricted to the time of those kings?

Look in Isaiah 2:

17 And the haughtiness of man shall be humbled,
and the lofty pride of men shall be brought low,
and the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.
18 And the idols shall utterly pass away.
19 And people shall enter the caves of the rocks
and the holes of the ground,
from before the terror of the LORD,
and from the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to terrify the earth.
20 In that day mankind will cast away
their idols of silver and their idols of gold,
which they made for themselves to worship,
to the moles and to the bats,
21 to enter the caverns of the rocks
and the clefts of the cliffs,
from before the terror of the LORD,
and from the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to terrify the earth.


I'd say that presents a problem for the 6th century BC.

Or how about the 4:2-6 (the end of 3):

2 In that day the branch of the LORD shall be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall be the pride and honor of the survivors of Israel. 3 And he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy, everyone who has been recorded for life in Jerusalem, 4 when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. 5 Then the LORD will create over the whole site of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, and smoke and the shining of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory there will be a canopy. 6 There will be a booth for shade by day from the heat, and for a refuge and a shelter from the storm and rain.

Asserting that these things took place in the time of Isaiah is not credible. Asserting that they are about to take place is credible.

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 101:

If you really READ Isaiah, He tells you WHO his prophecy concerned and WHEN he prophesied...Isaiah 1:1: The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz concerning Judah and Jerusalem, which he saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Note that Isaiah 1:1 isn't referring to when all the visions in the book of Isaiah apply, but simply to when they were seen by Isaiah. For Isaiah prophesied, for example, God creating a new heaven and earth (Isaiah 66:22, Revelation 21:1-8) some 3,700 years before its (still future) occurrence. For Isaiah gave that prophecy some 700 years before Jesus' first coming, but it won't be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 21:8).

 

[riverrat]

ebed wrote:
Originally Posted by riverrat

Danoh wrote:

By the way, Ebed, what is your understandting of why they were to "begin at Jerusalem"?
​

ebed wrote:
Read Acts 2:4 as the gospel starts:
5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.

It's not hard...it's the FIRST preaching of the gospel!!

ebed: Have you ever heard of the "so called" great commission?
​

Riverrat, have you ever hear Acts to is the first event of the great commission.

What did Jesus command them in Acts 1:4, 5:
4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me;
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Are you getting there???

No, I am not getting there. I have been there for a long time.

My point (which of course you do not see) is that Danoh did not ask "what". He asked "why".

And the answer that he was looking for was the "so called great commission".

 

[Danoh]

ebed wrote:
Originally Posted by riverrat

Danoh wrote:

By the way, Ebed, what is your understandting of why they were to "begin at Jerusalem"?
​

ebed wrote:
Read Acts 2:4 as the gospel starts:
5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.

It's not hard...it's the FIRST preaching of the gospel!!

ebed: Have you ever heard of the "so called" great commission?
​

Riverrat, have you ever hear Acts to is the first event of the great commission.

What did Jesus command them in Acts 1:4, 5:
4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me;
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Are you getting there???

No, I am not getting there. I have been there for a long time.

My point (which of course you do not see) is that Danoh did not ask "what". He asked "why".

And the answer that he was looking for was the "so called great commission".

He is not one to accept correction; note his ignoring my having corrected him on his off-base assertion as to the actual sense of Rom. 8:11.

Meaning, he is not minding the things of the Spirit, as that passage instructs and now has only the flesh's pride to have to draw on - one type of the death that passage mentions.

He's probably off somewhere looking for some way to justify his error on Isaiah.

 

[BABerean2]

The book "Things that Differ" by C.R. Stam has divided the New Testament in such a way as to produce...

More than one "Great Commission"

and

More than one "Gospel"


The book can be found in the link below.

Things That Differ-Cornelius Stamm


1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Co 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
1Co 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
1Co 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
1Co 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Co 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

Are Christians to be separated by the name of those who are preaching the Gospel?
Are some of Paul and some of Peter?
Is Christ divided?


1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Here Paul says that he has baptized some, however the preaching of the Gospel is his primary task.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

The Apostle Paul wanted the Glory to go to Christ instead of himself.

Would he want the Gospel divided and the Great Commission divided?

Would he want Christians today to elevate him to a special position?

Paul asked the question above, "Is Christ divided?".


When those promoting Mid-Acts Dispensationalism refer to Paul as "our Apostle Paul", are they doing what Paul warned against in 1st Cor. 1:11-13?

 

[Danoh]

Never mind how often he instructs his readers to follow him as he followed Christ.

Yours remains a surface level reading of the issues he is addressing.

And no wonder, for yours is a focus on seeking what might prove your traditioned learned view.

Fact is it takes years approaching the passages objectively to get at their sense - not your going to them as you do; only in an attempt to prove your errors are sound.

I said it when we first went at each other for this failure of yours, and here it continues to prove itself the case - you are no "Berean too" and Stam has nothing to do with that; you're going there as to this "Berean" issue is just one more example of your ignorance as to what it means to "BABerean2."

I know your kind only too well - your every breath is drenched in the parroted errors, slipshod "research" and mispresentation your kind is simply unwilling to part with.

 

[ebedmelech]

Isaiah 1:1 tells us when he saw the vision, not about what time or place he prophecized. That determination can only come from what Isaiah says in the passage, and the contents of the passage compared against history. If we say Isaiah can only prophecy about Judah and Jerusalem, or the time of the Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, we are in deep, deep trouble!

No we arent. The problem is you have to put the entire picture together. You understand this prophecy has to do with the time of those kings 2 Kings 14 is a good place to start as well as 2 Chronicles 26. Judah is deep in sin and God is ready to move against them for that.

1. Isaiah prophecizes about many things outside Judah and Jerusalem: for instance, right her in 2 he talks about Tarshish, and "mankind". Both have a wider scope than Israel.

Show that please! Keeping in mind Isaiah is speaking to that world he was in. Why would he prophecy the 21st century way back there when God told him specifically. Take a look at Isaiah 6:8
8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!”
9 He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.’

What people is Isaiah to go to?

2. Isaiah prophecize about many things outside the time of Uzziah, Jotha, Ahaz, and Hezekiah. The destruction of Judah for instance -- which came after Hezekiah. And what to do with Isaiah 53? Was that about the time of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah? I hope not. If not why not? If you work back from Isaiah 53, you will see that he is talking to Hezekiah.

Did you read my post? OR...did you missed this portion:

Now of course within Isaiah's prophecy there's the promise of Messiah and restoration...but Isaiah 2 and 3 don't even mention any of that!

Isaiah 53 is messianic.

Next Isaiah gave prophecy of Israel as well as Judah! Isaiah 10 is the Assyrian Empire taking Israel into exile and attacking Judah as well...2 Kings 17!

Is it not possible that the assertion about Judah and Jerusalem is general -- and as such true? Is it not possible that his vision were seen during the time of those kings, rather than being restricted to the time of those kings?

Look in Isaiah 2:

17 And the haughtiness of man shall be humbled,
and the lofty pride of men shall be brought low,
and the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.
18 And the idols shall utterly pass away.
19 And people shall enter the caves of the rocks
and the holes of the ground,
from before the terror of the LORD,
and from the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to terrify the earth.
20 In that day mankind will cast away
their idols of silver and their idols of gold,
which they made for themselves to worship,
to the moles and to the bats,
21 to enter the caverns of the rocks
and the clefts of the cliffs,
from before the terror of the LORD,
and from the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to terrify the earth.

Like I said do you understand this is about all of Judah's sins and Israel as well??? Have you read Jeremiah???

I'd say that presents a problem for the 6th century BC.

Or how about the 4:2-6 (the end of 3):

2 In that day the branch of the LORD shall be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall be the pride and honor of the survivors of Israel. 3 And he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy, everyone who has been recorded for life in Jerusalem, 4 when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. 5 Then the LORD will create over the whole site of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, and smoke and the shining of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory there will be a canopy. 6 There will be a booth for shade by day from the heat, and for a refuge and a shelter from the storm and rain.

Asserting that these things took place in the time of Isaiah is not credible. Asserting that they are about to take place is credible.

Once again I've made the point there are portions of Isaiah that are messianic and prophetic of salvation to the world.

Secondly if you think these things did not take place, you don't read your bible well! Jeremiah is Isaiah's contemporary...he picks up on the very prophecies Isaiah gave concerning Judah.

You have work to to gospelfer!!!

 

[ebedmelech]

Note that Isaiah 1:1 isn't referring to when all the visions in the book of Isaiah apply, but simply to when they were seen by Isaiah. For Isaiah prophesied, for example, God creating a new heaven and earth (Isaiah 66:22, Revelation 21:1-8) some 3,700 years before its (still future) occurrence. For Isaiah gave that prophecy some 700 years before Jesus' first coming, but it won't be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 21:8).

Is that why he said CONCERNING Judah and Jerusalem??? Did you NOTE THAT Bible2???

So you missed this portion of my post?:

Now of course within Isaiah's prophecy there's the promise of Messiah and restoration...but Isaiah 2 and 3 don't even mention any of that!

Isaiah makes some prophecies that are general about eternity, but he is primarily dealing with Israel's exile and prophesying Judah's captivity.

 

[ebedmelech]

ebed wrote:
Originally Posted by riverrat

Danoh wrote:

By the way, Ebed, what is your understandting of why they were to "begin at Jerusalem"?
​

ebed wrote:
Read Acts 2:4 as the gospel starts:
5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.

It's not hard...it's the FIRST preaching of the gospel!!

ebed: Have you ever heard of the "so called" great commission?
​

Riverrat, have you ever hear Acts to is the first event of the great commission.

What did Jesus command them in Acts 1:4, 5:
4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me;
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Are you getting there???

No, I am not getting there. I have been there for a long time.

My point (which of course you do not see) is that Danoh did not ask "what". He asked "why".

And the answer that he was looking for was the "so called great commission".

You have a point there.

 

[ebedmelech]

He is not one to accept correction; note his ignoring my having corrected him on his off-base assertion as to the actual sense of Rom. 8:11.

Meaning, he is not minding the things of the Spirit, as that passage instructs and now has only the flesh's pride to have to draw on - one type of the death that passage mentions.

He's probably off somewhere looking for some way to justify his error on Isaiah.

Where did you do that Danoh??? Please point that out.

Nevermind, I found it...and you corrected nothing, you read what you thought into it! I was asked Lamad HOW he read the passage. I never said what I thought about it. Go read it again.