The Enemy Within: Confusion on college campuses

[British One]

OK, I originally wrote the article at the beginning of this thread in February 2004 and it is now October. For outsiders reading this thread it might not seem that long a gap - but I promise you much has changed. The situation is VERY different now and therefore remember my original post was at a certain moment in time.

For outsiders reading this thread:
When you read this thread you may pick up bits of what this argument is about, but please be aware there is a great deal more to this than meets the eye. Some of the people on this thread know each other personally and it was not my intention to make this personal debate public but it has turned out like this. My advice would be don't read this thread as it is neither useful or worthwhile reading for anyone else than people who deal or have had to deal with Fusion in the past.

For people I know who have posted on this thread:
Lots has been written about me, to me or insulting me on this thread. This is the first time I have seen the responses and so I feel I should respond to each point. I apologise to any offence I have caused, but remember my original article contained no names, because its original purpose was to be published in a christian paper in the UK. A lot of people have made this thread very personal and there is no way back from that now - but please remember this was not my intention.

I have made individual responses to each point below:

What Jon gives is a very biased account of the relations between the CU and Fusion at Edge Hill College.

Of course it is biased, I’m giving my opinion of a time when I was in the thick of a very difficult time for Christians at Edge Hill. I was a leader of the CU, and I had been meeting with the Fusion leadership in Liverpool. I was aware of how both organisations and wrote an honest article of what I thought of the situation.

1. Fusion had dual sex meetings until christmas. We still had/have socials together on Thursdays, a cafe thing on Tuesdays and we go to church together on Sunday nights.

At the time of my writing the article all the fellowship meetings (i.e. bible study and worship not socials) were separated by sex.

2. The men's meeting was moved to a Monday to coincide with fitness training at Edge Hill, which was on a Monday night. The 2 lads who attended regularly agreed to do this.

This isn’t a good enough excuse. The conflict it would bring should have been obvious to the Fusion leadership.

3. I was not told by anyone to make a decision, Jon. You conveniently forget I attended CU 2 or 3 times before Christmas last year.

4. This was because he had showed an interest (Mark had). I don't believe Mark was in the CU exec. You may be referring to Tom ?

5. I was that guy and I was not happy about that, but that was between me and Neil, not for you to write about on a public forum.

Nothing in my article refers to you. In fact you have made the decision to write names in this thread which I deliberately decided not to do to protect those individuals.

6. They do encourage us to go but some Fusion members do not go and some attend Ormskirk community church and other churches. Those that go, generally wish to and enjoy it. Though the leaders can be pushy, sometimes a push is what we need! I can assure I am not easily pushed around either.

You have agreed with me that Fusion do encourage their members to attend one church in particular. My original point was to make the distinction between the independent nature of the CU, and the very biased nature of Fusion towards one particular denomination.

7. The Fusion group is a democracy up to a point as parts of each meeting are allocated to the students. Neil has also said he wants us lads to take more responsibility for the meetings & socials next year.

The leadership however is still predominately non students.

8. Did I mention that some of the following facts were obtained by the CU sending a certain member to 'spy' on the Fusion meetings ?!

The CU did not at any time decide to send spies along to Fusion. However one member of the CU Exec did decide to meet with Fusion because he wanted to bridge the gap of division which had arose. And he deserves a lot of credit for doing what he did.

We were NEVER competing against the CU, they were competing against us. The only reason any competition started was because of the attitudes of the CU leadership, such as "British One".

I find it hard to believe that the CU were competing against Fusion when the CU were the original Christian support on campus.

I don't mind the CU and I know that the majority of Fusion does not have anything against the CU - some even attend their meetings/socials - and the CU exec have agreed to be co-operative with fusion. Most of the problems have stemmed from things that happened at the original posters brother's university - not at Edge Hill. I say this because I met 2 CU people in my first week and there was a definite anti-Fusion feeling even then.

The problems did not stem from events that had happened at my brothers university, in fact I had not even heard of Fusion until they arrived at Edge Hill. I then spoke to my brother about the problems we were having and he informed me about the national problem Fusion is causing across campuses around the UK. UCCF also confirmed this. Since writing the article, I have graduated, so I cannot speak about the current situation at Edge Hill, and I admit I am not up to speed with the national situation anymore either.

P.S. I always got on with Jon personally and I think differences could have been ironed out, had the two leaderships sat down and talked about it.

The two leaderships did meet, in fact I met with the Fusion North West leaders after writing a letter to the Fusion head office in Chichester. The CU impressed on Fusion that we did not need another organisation coming to Edge Hill but any support they could give with prayer, volunteers or by financial means would be gratefully received. Fusion declined this and instead started up their alternative groups. The Fusion website says that Fusion will only arrive at university “if invited” however this did not end up to be the case.

Its funny you should say that because one of the main reasons why Jon (British One) was distrustful of the Fusion organisation, was because of things that happened at his brother's university, which apparently gave him a bad impression of Fusion. This had absolutely nothing to do with our college's group but for some reason he considered that we were a bad thing because of things that had happened at another uni. Although those things may have been twisted by his brother, and a lot of his criticisms of our group are not true.

I was distrustful to Fusion for three reasons:

- The way they dealt with the CU when they first arrived, something you do not know about Steve.
- I did not agree with their doctrinal or theological stance, or the way they felt that they could walk all over UCCF who for over 150 years have provided Christian support and mission to universities across the UK (and Ireland).
- National experiences of Fusion at other universities (not just my brothers) were just as sour as we experienced at Edge Hill.

Hi Steve,

Thanks Steve. This was interesting reading. It's sad that he feels he as to
do this. I don't believe any of the things he's said are true - do you? He
has twisted everything to make his point. Jon drifted away from the CU
during the last academic year. So this isn't a representation of what CU
members think. I am meeting with the CU leaders next week, so I will bring
it up with them then.

If you want to chat anymore about it I would be glad to talk anything
through. Call/email me. Or we can chat when you are back in Ormskirk.

Firstly, I have to say it is very unprofessional, and unchristian for one of the leaders to comment about my personal life in public without first writing to me, or asking for my permission. I did not “drift away” but in the 3rd year of my studies I resigned from CU leadership, for a number of reasons which I won’t go into detail here. The biggest reason however was that I was in my final year and I had an awful lot of work to do, and could not find time for all the activities I was involved in.

I just want to point out a couple of important points that Jon seems to have missed out, firstly i was the president of the Cu at the time Jon is talking about and the leader of the fusion group on campus is a close friend of mine and the reason that i persevered with the CU when i joined in my second year! I had direct communication with the Fusion leader and delt first hand with the problems that arose!

Let me remind Andy that the Fusion leader we are both talking about, who I don’t want to name for reasons of privacy was a leader of the CU first (in 2001) and who I got to know in my first year of life at Edge Hill. Her leaving was upsetting for the CU because she is a great person, and a godly Christian who I respect enormously. There is a history to these events which Andy is not aware of because he only joined the CU in September 2002.

He was also not party to the conversations that took place between myself and some of the leadership from the Liverpool Fusion teams before Fusion had been established at Edge Hill.

The reason that Fusion was set up within our campus was because the CU was lifeless! we did not have an aim, direction or seemingly a purpose!

I have to say that those words are offensive both to the leadership team who were before you (an excellent President and exec) and the rest of the CU who met in fellowship before you arrived. The CU in terms of numbers was not as successful in 2002 and 2003 as opposed to previous years.

When you arrived Andy you were a great asset to the CU, through both your excellent worship leadership and other gifts the Lord has given you. But lets not get carried away, you weren’t the saviour of the CU by any means.

a lot of what Jon is saying is speculation and i am dissapointed that he posted these things as half of the things he has said is total untruth!

I’m aware from other people that since you wrote this post you have been informed of things you did not know before about Fusion and therefore what you may have though were untruths, you now will understand were fact. However since we have known each other for over two years, prayed with each other, worshipped with each other, planned CU events with each other – I would have expected greater support and trust from yourself, and have to say your comments were really hurtful. You have basically called my liar – when I was simply trying to make public (in the Christian arena) what I thought needed outside opinion.

In a way im glad that fusion offered stability to its members and constant sound teaching! because we were in no fit position to offer that!

You were the President Andy – you should have been offering stability to both CU members and the Exec. But it is ungraceful of me to dwell on the past – I pray for the future of Edge Hill CU under the leadership of Tom. I’m sure God is doing great things – in fact the group looks really healthy after recently speaking at the CU.

Sorry if this upsets you Jon
But you cannot stop the work of God no matter if you agree with it or not
He is going to do things u dont like!
Pray about it deal with it and move on!
Pray of revival not devision which is what you are doing by ranting about another christian group!

Again, its upsetting that you would write the above. I, by the grace of God, worked hard and long for Edge Hill CU when I was one of the leadership team as well you know. If you think I wanted anything but revival for the CU then you are very much mistaken.

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Finally, lets draw a line under this unfortunate situation and I pray that God will bless both Edge Hill CU and Fusion both now, and in the future.

 

[Steve_SandbachBaptist_UK]

A few points Jon:

1. Yes I have named individuals but I don't think it affects people's anonymity if I just use people's first names. You say in your original post "I can't name my college" but there was a pic of you in your profile and you've said in other threads "I live in Ormskirk" which suggests that you go to Edge Hill. People that know you to any degree would be able to work out who you are especially if they looked at your profile. People that don't know you or don't go to Edge Hill won't care what college it is, half the outsiders reading this thread have prob never heard of Edge Hill, until reading this thread.

2. It takes two to have an argument. CU may have gripes against Fusion but I know there has been a lot of problems between the 2 groups around the country and I know that our group had problems with the CU leadership when Fusion started a year ago.

3. CU may have been going for 150 years but the average student is in uni for 3 or 4 years, so I see it as irrelevant.

4. I don't think Julia was unprofessional; and it was me that made that email public not her so I apologise for that but surely freedom of speech says she can say what she likes to me in a private email.

5. The fact that the CU were there before does not mean they weren't competing against Fusion. The Conservatives were around before Labour, does that mean they are not competing against Labour? Of course they are

Steve

 

[Steve_SandbachBaptist_UK]

At the time of my writing the article all the fellowship meetings (i.e. bible study and worship not socials) were separated by sex.

Why is that such a problem for you when you were never a Fusion member?

This isn’t a good enough excuse. The conflict it would bring should have been obvious to the Fusion leadership.

None of the 4 people including me that ever did fitness training, went to the CU much anyway. The idea was to reach out to people through that but I feel its a good enough excuse. It's a bit like Coronation Street complaining about people scheduling football matches on Wednesdays that clash with their episodes. It wasn't our decision for fitness to be on the Monday (I would have preferred another day).

Nothing in my article refers to you. In fact you have made the decision to write names in this thread which I deliberately decided not to do to protect those individuals.

As a member of Fusion they do refer to me. It's a bit like someone criticising the England team without using any names and then saying to a player, oh it doesn't refer to you, I mean you only play for them.





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Finally, lets draw a line under this unfortunate situation and I pray that God will bless both Edge Hill CU and Fusion both now, and in the future.[/QUOTE]

 

[J_K_DART]

I'll only make a few comments. I'd hoped this thread would die out, if truth be told, and be totally forgotten; I'd hoped Jon would never even come across it again. Ah, well...

All I will say, is that, as Jon has said, this thread is no longer productive in any level. I don't believe it's in anyone's interests to stir up the past (least of all Jon's, the CU's, or Fusion's). I don't believe what happened yesterday is even important. The failures of yesterday do not matter; all that matters is building a tomorrow towards Godliness. I agree with Jon that the CU this year is, thank God, healthy; we have a good group, some prominent Christians, and I even already have my eye on the potential Exec for next year. I think we have some tremendous assetts. I am pleased to say that I think Fusion have some assetts as well. The fact the CU have to accept is that Fusion does exist. We just have to deal with it; that need not pose a problem, in fact it may (and, I think this year is doing) pose a potential success. Simply put, this year it hopefully means:

1) There are two different organisations, hopefully in cooperation, attempting to form a holistic witness to the College

2) There are two different organisations providing Biblical teaching and fellowship, while using a variety of styles as appropriate to the different venues, and that therefore different people can be discipled and different people can be brought in.

3) Potentially, twice as much for God is being done in the College. I've talked with Julia enough to believe we can coordinate effectively, and I see no reason why, this year, we cannot be very... efficient... and maybe succeed in fulfilling the vision of the CU; "to unashamedly proclaim and demonstrate the truth of the Gospel to all students." That vision may well be far too big for just the one group; by working in association with Fusion, we may have more success.

4) Through closer coordination and making socials open to Fusion members (even through creating a primary social occurring on a Tuesday rather than a Thursday, while still leaving a film-or-pub-quiz night on a Thursday) we can hopefully promote much closer association and integration. This means that, should error occur within either the CU or Fusion, the groups will hopefully be close enough to correct said error without offence. I happen to believe that error can creep into any church or Christian group, and should the two groups cooperate more, we can watch one another and hopefully be of doctrinal value.

5) The Christian Union's Mission Statement, as Jon knows and as I have discussed with Steve, makes it clear to the CU that we exist as a resource to Christians; including to Fusion members. Nobody, by making themselves a member of Fusion, cuts themselves off from the CU; the friendship, fellowship, support in prayer, and discipleship teaching that we offer is freely given to anyone who calls themselves a Christian and wants it. In other words, we exist as a resource to Christians - including as a resource to Fusion.

The past does not matter. It is dead and done with. We can't change it. Instead of arguing about it, let this thread pose a warning to the mistakes that have been made lest we repeat them. That is all that matters.

I would like to add, in conclusion, that Jon is an absolute star; he is a man of God with a great deal of personal strength and a great conviction to work for God. I knew no-one whose heart was so on fire for God in the last year, and when he stepped down from the Exec, as I said to Andy at the time, "I have to ask: if the CU doesn't have room for Jon, does it have room for me?" There are very few people who I respect more, and, while not attending the CU due to a variety of reasons, Jon was, at all points, supporting us in prayer and was an honest and sincere encouragement and a close friend and support to several members of the CU - even when he was no longer a member of the group.

I pray that I won't have to post on this thread again!