The Ends do not Justify the Means

[Umber]

The titular statement is the antithesis to all Christian theology.
The idea that enduring suffering brings reward is disproven by the logic that given all the horrors of this life, even if God and Mary and Jesus and the world do a group hug and live in harmony for eterntiy, can never be justified.

How do you think this applies to life in general?
The Iraq invasion associates well here, I think. The removal of one man from power cannot justify the crippling of a nation, augmentation of foreign hatred for the west, and the death of countless innocent civilians.

The end does not justify the means.

This is a very ulititarian phrase.

 

[bt_st_At]

The titular statement is the antithesis to all Christian theology.
The idea that enduring suffering brings reward is disproven by the logic that given all the horrors of this life, even if God and Mary and Jesus and the world do a group hug and live in harmony for eterntiy, can never be justified.

How do you think this applies to life in general?
The Iraq invasion associates well here, I think. The removal of one man from power cannot justify the crippling of a nation, augmentation of foreign hatred for the west, and the death of countless innocent civilians.

The end does not justify the means.

This is a very ulititarian phrase.

I think your right in a sense. But what is justifiable? I'm not go into the political stuff because that has no basis and is just so sad....

I believe that we made a contract with God when we came to Earth. The idea is we experience negativity for him and we also spiritually grow ourselves. It's not so much there is going to be hugs in the "end" more like Good job well done. Everything happens for a reason whether or not we know/understand/ignore/accept tthat reason is up to us

With love and grace
Bt

 

[Umber]

Cause and reaction...eurgh. *shudders*

I agree with the idea that to know happiness, you must have known misery to identify the former. However, the amount of misery in the world seems vastly disproportionate to the non-misery. ¬_¬

Ergo the justification for secular modern living (work for money, use money to buy stuff that helps you survive, perks are holidays, luxury goods and...this "love" thing) is fundamentally flawed. Troubling, nay?

So much so that the very reason people seek God also drives them away from him. People, on the whole, don't believe in a God that will not intervene or manifest.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

The titular statement is the antithesis to all Christian theology.
The idea that enduring suffering brings reward is disproven by the logic that given all the horrors of this life, even if God and Mary and Jesus and the world do a group hug and live in harmony for eterntiy, can never be justified.

How do you think this applies to life in general?
The Iraq invasion associates well here, I think. The removal of one man from power cannot justify the crippling of a nation, augmentation of foreign hatred for the west, and the death of countless innocent civilians.

The end does not justify the means.

This is a very ulititarian phrase.

Well, w/ the Iraq issue...none of the latter consequences were planned. All actions have consequences, good or bad...and a lot of time good actions have negative consequences. That doesn't mean that the good action wasn't good to begin with.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Umber, I could not say it better than some replies you had. The christian message is not " the end justifies the means," it is simply, " you reap, what you sow." God told us what is GOOD, and also what is NOT Good for us. God`s Law is such that everything has consequences, and God`s Law stands forever. Some consequences, or answers, take longer than others, but that is simply, because we have a loving God, He has given us free will, He will NEVER force us, and we are given time to realise ourselves, the wrongs we commit. We always have time and opportunity, to repent, to ask forgiveness, and to change our attitudes. God always encourages us, to use the brains and hearts, God gave us. I say this humbly and assuredly, Umber, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[bt_st_At]

Cause and reaction...eurgh. *shudders*

I agree with the idea that to know happiness, you must have known misery to identify the former. However, the amount of misery in the world seems vastly disproportionate to the non-misery. ¬_¬

Ergo the justification for secular modern living (work for money, use money to buy stuff that helps you survive, perks are holidays, luxury goods and...this "love" thing) is fundamentally flawed. Troubling, nay?

So much so that the very reason people seek God also drives them away from him. People, on the whole, don't believe in a God that will not intervene or manifest.

People will find God whether they mean to or not its sometimes one of those things we don't have choice on.

How much of the entire worlds negativity do you take in? There is alot of bad crap out there but its not all yours to deal with...there are several billion people out there the simple answer to this would be that there has to be enough negativity to go around

And honestly I think that is the very point. God I've noticed has an intricate way of hidding his existence which is in plain view. Negativity for you may be a deterent in your life to stay away from relgions that cause it, perhaps the very purpose here in this lifetime to learn to know God through other curcuits beyond mainstream or even religion itself. Perhaps you're simply on a journey to find SELF relization and God within youself!! Yeah that was fun!! Lets do some more

-Bt

 

[Umber]

God within myself, eh? Sounds very Church of Satan to me...*narrows eyes*

Anyways, there's a hell of a lot of bad crap.

What I love is the idea that good and evil are not real. The snake eats your cat and you're sad because you love your cat, the snake is happy because it gets food. The cat only loves you because you feed it, theoretically the idea of you being emotionally attached to it is ridiculous.
What is good to you is seen by someone else as evil, and vice versa.

Weird, no? And so Black and White are but different shades of grey.
Or gray?

 

[bt_st_At]

God within myself, eh? Sounds very Church of Satan to me...*narrows eyes*

Anyways, there's a hell of a lot of bad crap.

What I love is the idea that good and evil are not real. The snake eats your cat and you're sad because you love your cat, the snake is happy because it gets food. The cat only loves you because you feed it, theoretically the idea of you being emotionally attached to it is ridiculous.
What is good to you is seen by someone else as evil, and vice versa.

Weird, no? And so Black and White are but different shades of grey.
Or gray?

lol the first thing that came to mind when I read this is that there is no real understanding at all.

Having God within you is the samething as excepting Christ into you heart and it was very cinical and hypocritical of you to make such a statement "Sounds like the Church of Satan to me"

Never did I mention that good and evil are not real. I put them in quotations as to suggestion that the meanings are not what they always suggest. Humans always have to look at things in a good or bad light. Either or is helping you to become a better person and therefore (if you believe in judgement) better spirit in the eyes of god. I however don't believe in jugdement god understands I'm human understand that I am flawed and forgives me because he loves me always and forever.

No for you snake and you rabbit. That is a very intersting theory and will admit I've never heard of it like that before. But we see the snake as bad for eating the rabbit because we loved the rabbit. Really though it's our love that makes it bad or good it's our view on it. It's natural for the snake to eat a rabbit (I guess although I think they like rats more) it's a food source. So it's not so much that negativity doesn't exist but how we view it that it becomes something else.

with love and grace
Bt

 

[Umber]

Eep, sorry. You have taken umbrage at me. I wasn't trying to offend you.

The principles of the Church of Satan is that the individual is their own God, with absolute power over their own destiny. Hence the "That sounds like the CoS to me".

And with the good and evil thing, I wasn't sure you even mentionned it. I was trying to move the conversation onwards. ^__^
But why is the snake eating a rabbit a negative thing? We eat snakes. And indeed, we eat rabbits. And that's not a sin, so why is it a negative thing? It's not. It's the most natural thing in the world. But for some reason, we augment that action with negativity.

Thus it is plausible to say that ultimately there's no good or evil. There is the action of the individual to benefit itself, and whether the action benefits or compromises your interests. ^__^
There is no such thing as a selfless good deed. If you give to the poor, you do so because it will make you feel good to see a once-poor person happy.

 

[bt_st_At]

Eep, sorry. You have taken umbrage at me. I wasn't trying to offend you.

The principles of the Church of Satan is that the individual is their own God, with absolute power over their own destiny. Hence the "That sounds like the CoS to me".

And with the good and evil thing, I wasn't sure you even mentionned it. I was trying to move the conversation onwards. ^__^
But why is the snake eating a rabbit a negative thing? We eat snakes. And indeed, we eat rabbits. And that's not a sin, so why is it a negative thing? It's not. It's the most natural thing in the world. But for some reason, we augment that action with negativity.

Thus it is plausible to say that ultimately there's no good or evil. There is the action of the individual to benefit itself, and whether the action benefits or compromises your interests. ^__^
There is no such thing as a selfless good deed. If you give to the poor, you do so because it will make you feel good to see a once-poor person happy.

Thank you for clearing it up I don't ever be sorry a misunderstanding is a part of being human and just another way to learn. You didn't offend me it was more along the lines of helping you to understand that being open-minded to others beliefs and understanding those beliefs is a very hopeful tool in understanding God. But it would appear that isn't a problem for you anyways. What is you belief structure if I may briefly ask?

 

[Umber]

I believe that all of this was created by a higher intelligence. I also feel that they are never going to intervene with us. Maybe they died out, I'm not sure.

I also feel strongly in parallel existances. E.g. every possible scenario is a seperate dimension in its own right. Every book you read, every film you watch, is someone's reality. ^__^

It's nice to think like that.


But I can't see things like this working. The next stage from humanity is Cyber-Organisms, then Mechanical life, then energy based life forms, then transcendence.

For me, "God" is ismply a fancy way of saying "so insanely powerful nothing exists that can kill it".
I have a very scientific, analytical approach. I suppose that's why I see religion in the negative impact it has on soceity, rather than the positive impact on the individuals. -_-

 

[bt_st_At]

I believe that all of this was created by a higher intelligence. I also feel that they are never going to intervene with us. Maybe they died out, I'm not sure.

I also feel strongly in parallel existances. E.g. every possible scenario is a seperate dimension in its own right. Every book you read, every film you watch, is someone's reality. ^__^

It's nice to think like that.


But I can't see things like this working. The next stage from humanity is Cyber-Organisms, then Mechanical life, then energy based life forms, then transcendence.

For me, "God" is ismply a fancy way of saying "so insanely powerful nothing exists that can kill it".
I have a very scientific, analytical approach. I suppose that's why I see religion in the negative impact it has on soceity, rather than the positive impact on the individuals. -_-

Just out of curiousity why would we jump from mechanical life-forms to energy based ones? I already conisder things energy, matter is enery its the elctrons of atoms pushing against one another. I believe thoughts are energy. I understand the idea of evolving but I think we are pretty close to becoming energy life forms already

It's quite possible that there is no god and that it is a figament of imagination. how are we really ever going to know in this lifetime. The question here is how does any belief make sense of the constant negativity that is more justifiable then a hug a kiss and a welcome home.

I simply believe that we're here to experience it all that it's for our spiritual growth. That its a choice we may not understand it in this lifetime but we don't have to it's the fact that we deal with it in this lifetime. Thats the whole point!!

 

[Umber]

Spiritualism is a great area of study, because it deals with polytheism and...the one where they have no Gods. Curse my early morning tiredness. ¬_¬

Well, if you look at it that we are currently Carbon based, with energy produced from complex carbohydrates and Hydrocarbons excreted as waste products.
Next stage would be Robots, that cut out the waste products and fuel somewhat and run on power packs, that can be recharged.

And finally, you would have Life so unimaginably advanced it would be energy based and capable of controlling energy itself. This would be what your God would be like; Omnipotent (as everything in the world is comproised of energy at a sub-sub-atomic level).

The latter is a theory, but it makes sense and will hopefully be the way humans develop in a couple of hundred thousand years... XD

 

[bt_st_At]

Spiritualism is a great area of study, because it deals with polytheism and...the one where they have no Gods. Curse my early morning tiredness. ¬_¬

Well, if you look at it that we are currently Carbon based, with energy produced from complex carbohydrates and Hydrocarbons excreted as waste products.
Next stage would be Robots, that cut out the waste products and fuel somewhat and run on power packs, that can be recharged.

And finally, you would have Life so unimaginably advanced it would be energy based and capable of controlling energy itself. This would be what your God would be like; Omnipotent (as everything in the world is comproised of energy at a sub-sub-atomic level).

The latter is a theory, but it makes sense and will hopefully be the way humans develop in a couple of hundred thousand years... XD

Dearest, we as humans may not be able to create fireballs and electicity from our hands but I wouldn't say that we can't control energy. Satelites control energy your microwave controls energy. If you believe in paranormal psychology some people have the ability of telekinsis *the ability to manipulate objects with the mind*

According to some when we die we make that switch into energy life forms. Energy is more abundent than hydrogen in the universe hell it makes up hydrogen in the universe. I would consider almost impossible not to move with out controlling it in one fashion or another...

 

[Umber]

Hehehe, nay, I was inferring absolute control over energy. Whereas we can make machines that control energy, we have little concious control over it, mechanical energy aside.

In any case, whilst this is all very abstract, interesting thinking, it is somewhat off topic. XD