The end of the age rapture

[fli]

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. NKJV

Jesus told His the Apostles that He would be with His church to the end of the age.

If we can determine when the end of the age we should be able to determine when the rapture is.

Matt 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! NKJV

The end of the age occurs when God weeds the tares from His kingdom. In verse 37 Jesus explains that the field is the world. God sowed good seed in the garden of Eden. His field was the world. Then Adam sinned and Satan became the prince of this world and the field became Satan's domain. The world has to become God's kingdom again before He sends the Angels to weed out the tares. That will happen at the end of the age.

Rev 11: 15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" NKJV

When the seventh trumpet sounds the world is now God's field again. The “has become” means that a change was made. Now God can weed out the tares. Because God cannot lie He could not weed the tares from Satan's kingdom. It is the end of the age. It take 2 witnesses to prove the truth.

Matt 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." NKJV

This parable is not the same as the tares. In this one the net is God's kingdom and it never changes possession. God could draw it ashore at any time. The rapture is when the net is full and God draws the net ashore. God could have drawn it ashore at any time but He draws it at the end of the age. The end of the age occurs at the seventh trump.

It takes 2 witnesses to establish the truth. The end of the age has been established to begin at the seventh trumpet. I have given 2 witnesses now. Matthew 28:18 and Matthew 13: 47.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. NKJV

The last trumpet in revelation is the seventh. That puts the rapture happening at the seventh trumpet. God has given us 3 witnesses as to the truth of when the rapture occurs.

Does this mean if we are in the last times that we will go thru the first half of the tribulation? No!

Luke 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man." NKJV

Jesus is talking to the disciples in the above. (I suggest you read the entire passage to establish the setting.) Jesus has went thru the scenario when the disciples asked when would be His coming and the sign of the end of the age. Then He warned them to always be ready and not to sleep. The disciples expected Him to come in their lifetime. He told His Apostles to make sure they would be counted worthy to escape the tribulation coming on the world.

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. NKJV

This cannot be a rapture as described in 1Corinthians or Thessalonians. This will be a calling His obedient and alert church to heaven. The resurrection will happen at the seventh trumpet. The sleeping church will not be kept from the hour of trial. It is not going to be pleasant for the church during the tribulation.

God is still warning us.

Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. 34 It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming — in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning — 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" NKJV

 

[ewq1938]

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.

 

[SeventyOne]

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. NKJV

Jesus told His the Apostles that He would be with His church to the end of the age.

If we can determine when the end of the age we should be able to determine when the rapture is.

No. Remember a characteristic of the rapture, "1Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

Even if the rapture takes place 100 years before the end of the age, He will still be right there with His people in Heaven, just as He is today with those who have already died, and also just as He'll be with those who come to faith after the rapture. There's no way to determine the rapture timing from that quote.

 

[fli]

To ewq1938
I see nothing in the scriptures you cite to indicate that it occurs after the last three and a half years of the tribulation. All of your scriptures describe the rapture and then you say that it happens after the tribulation. I will again post what describes the rapture.

Matt 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." NKJV

Some people do not place much stock in the parables so I will cite what Jesus said about them. This has nothing to do with the topic except to add weight to the parables.

Matt 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 1. NKJV

The parables are the mysteries of the kingdom explained. If we understand them we will understand the kingdom.

Therefore if Jesus says the net (the kingdom) was full and was drawn to shore it means there will be no more saved due to enter the kingdom. The kingdom is not limited by space requirements. The net could hold many more than will be in it when it is full. No, when God says the net is full He means that the last of the elect has entered and it's time to call them home, As it states in the parable it is full at the end of the age and is pulled to heaven.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. NKJV

Matt 19:28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. NKJV

We know that the Apostles were in the first resurrection.

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. NKJV

They were raptured at the last trumpet. Show where in revelation after the seventh that a trumpet is sounded.

To SeventyOne
I disagree. Jesus has assigned His church a job to do. He is letting them know that He will be with them until the job is done. He could have said that He would be with them forever but He didn't. The job of making disciples ends at the end of the age. His church will have His help in doing that job till the end of the age. This also means that those who claim that the Holy Spirit is removed prior to the end of the age are wrong.

However, it takes 2 witnesses to establish the truth. The dragnet proves the end of the age. And 1Corinthians says the last trumpet. Both occur at the same time.

 

[SeventyOne]

To SeventyOne
I disagree. Jesus has assigned His church a job to do. He is letting them know that He will be with them until the job is done. He could have said that He would be with them forever but He didn't. The job of making disciples ends at the end of the age. His church will have His help in doing that job till the end of the age. This also means that those who claim that the Holy Spirit is removed prior to the end of the age are wrong.

However, it takes 2 witnesses to establish the truth. The dragnet proves the end of the age. And 1Corinthians says the last trumpet. Both occur at the same time.

The Holy Spirit is not removed in the rapture, and the Church is not required to stay until the end of the age for those words to be true any more than the disciples were required to remain alive until the end of the age.

 

[iamlamad]

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. NKJV

Jesus told His the Apostles that He would be with His church to the end of the age.

If we can determine when the end of the age we should be able to determine when the rapture is.

Matt 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! NKJV

The end of the age occurs when God weeds the tares from His kingdom. In verse 37 Jesus explains that the field is the world. God sowed good seed in the garden of Eden. His field was the world. Then Adam sinned and Satan became the prince of this world and the field became Satan's domain. The world has to become God's kingdom again before He sends the Angels to weed out the tares. That will happen at the end of the age.

Rev 11: 15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" NKJV

When the seventh trumpet sounds the world is now God's field again. The “has become” means that a change was made. Now God can weed out the tares. Because God cannot lie He could not weed the tares from Satan's kingdom. It is the end of the age. It take 2 witnesses to prove the truth.

Matt 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." NKJV

This parable is not the same as the tares. In this one the net is God's kingdom and it never changes possession. God could draw it ashore at any time. The rapture is when the net is full and God draws the net ashore. God could have drawn it ashore at any time but He draws it at the end of the age. The end of the age occurs at the seventh trump.

It takes 2 witnesses to establish the truth. The end of the age has been established to begin at the seventh trumpet. I have given 2 witnesses now. Matthew 28:18 and Matthew 13: 47.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. NKJV

The last trumpet in revelation is the seventh. That puts the rapture happening at the seventh trumpet. God has given us 3 witnesses as to the truth of when the rapture occurs.

Does this mean if we are in the last times that we will go thru the first half of the tribulation? No!

Luke 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man." NKJV

Jesus is talking to the disciples in the above. (I suggest you read the entire passage to establish the setting.) Jesus has went thru the scenario when the disciples asked when would be His coming and the sign of the end of the age. Then He warned them to always be ready and not to sleep. The disciples expected Him to come in their lifetime. He told His Apostles to make sure they would be counted worthy to escape the tribulation coming on the world.

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. NKJV

This cannot be a rapture as described in 1Corinthians or Thessalonians. This will be a calling His obedient and alert church to heaven. The resurrection will happen at the seventh trumpet. The sleeping church will not be kept from the hour of trial. It is not going to be pleasant for the church during the tribulation.

God is still warning us.

Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. 34 It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming — in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning — 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" NKJV

If the 7th trumpet is "the end," why did God continue on with chapters 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 Etc? What are they?

For the readers, if you really wish to learn the timing of Paul's rapture, STUDY PAUL! In 1 Thes. 5, Paul tells us HIS gathering or rapture will come Just before the start of the Day of the Lord - or just before Wrath.

Find out where "wrath" begins in Revelation. You will find it, NOT at the 7th trumpet, but at the 6th seal. (wrath is mentioned in chapter 11, but that is not when it starts. That only acknowledges that God is STILL angry.

 

[ewq1938]

To ewq1938
I see nothing in the scriptures you cite to indicate that it occurs after the last three and a half years of the tribulation. All of your scriptures describe the rapture and then you say that it happens after the tribulation.

The verses show the rapture happening after the second coming and resurrection and those events only happen after the end of the trib.

We know that the Apostles were in the first resurrection.

The first resurrection has not yet happened as it only happens after the second coming.

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. NKJV

They were raptured at the last trumpet. Show where in revelation after the seventh that a trumpet is sounded.

They were raptured at the 7th trump because that hasn't sounded yet and there is no "8th trump"

 

[ewq1938]

If the 7th trumpet is "the end," why did God continue on with chapters 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 Etc? What are they?

For the readers, if you really wish to learn the timing of Paul's rapture, STUDY PAUL! In 1 Thes. 5, Paul tells us HIS gathering or rapture will come Just before the start of the Day of the Lord - or just before Wrath.

Find out where "wrath" begins in Revelation. You will find it, NOT at the 7th trumpet, but at the 6th seal. (wrath is mentioned in chapter 11, but that is not when it starts. That only acknowledges that God is STILL angry.

The 6th seal speaks about events that happen at the second coming/7th trump from the perspective of the unsaved.

 

[iamlamad]

The 6th seal speaks about events that happen at the second coming/7th trump from the perspective of the unsaved.

That would be a big negatory! The seals seal the book, and when they are opened, they are forgotten. NO mention of any seal after the 7th is opened so that the BOOK can be opened.

The 6th seal starts the Day of the Lord.

 

[ewq1938]

That would be a big negatory! The seals seal the book, and when they are opened, they are forgotten. NO mention of any seal after the 7th is opened so that the BOOK can be opened.

The 6th seal starts the Day of the Lord.

It doesn't start anything. It only shows a little bit of what is coming in the 7th trump. All the seals are opened at basically the same time so no literal events happen when they are opened, just knowledge of what is to come.

Jesus cannot return in the second coming at the 6th seal AND the 7th trump. That's how we know the seals are just information of what's coming whereas the trump signify action that will happen immediately as a trump sounds.

 

[iamlamad]

It doesn't start anything. It only shows a little bit of what is coming in the 7th trump. All the seals are opened at basically the same time so no literal events happen when they are opened, just knowledge of what is to come.

Jesus cannot return in the second coming at the 6th seal AND the 7th trump. That's how we know the seals are just information of what's coming whereas the trump signify action that will happen immediately as a trump sounds.

You can write myth all day long. But occasionally someone will know it is myth.

Seals seal the book. That is their primary purpose. But when each is opened, SOMETHING comes to pass: probably written on that part of the scroll that can be read after a seal is opened.

When the 6th seal is opened, (in the vision) John was not sleeping: He wrote and TOLD US what happened: the Day of the Lord started. Don't take my word for it, go back and read it.

Some people think the 6th seal is only telling us the Day is imminent and really starts at the 7th seal. I will buy either argument.

 

[iamlamad]

You can write myth all day long. But occasionally someone will know it is myth.

Seals seal the book. That is their primary purpose. But when each is opened, SOMETHING comes to pass: probably written on that part of the scroll that can be read after a seal is opened.

When the 6th seal is opened, (in the vision) John was not sleeping: He wrote and TOLD US what happened: the Day of the Lord started. Don't take my word for it, go back and read it.

Some people think the 6th seal is only telling us the Day is imminent and really starts at the 7th seal. I will buy either argument.

By the way, ANY theory that tries to align a trumpet (what is written Inside the book) with any seal (that seals the book) is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

 

[Timtofly]

It doesn't start anything. It only shows a little bit of what is coming in the 7th trump. All the seals are opened at basically the same time so no literal events happen when they are opened, just knowledge of what is to come.

Jesus cannot return in the second coming at the 6th seal AND the 7th trump. That's how we know the seals are just information of what's coming whereas the trump signify action that will happen immediately as a trump sounds.

Chapter 19 happens after Satan's 42 months. The Second Coming is the gathering of the final harvest and it happens before Satan's 42 months. Satan only gets the empty fields, not the firstfruits. The firstfruits belong to God. Study the order of the firstfruits and you will get the resurrections in the correct form. The first and only church resurrection was at the Cross. In Christ, no one is dead to resurrect. This body dead or alive will change, but never resurrected. The body in the grave is already changed and is glorified at the 5th seal. Those souls under the alter do not come back down to earth to meet up with their dead bodies! John says they put on robes of white.

 

[ewq1938]

In Christ, no one is dead to resurrect. This body dead or alive will change, but never resurrected.

Scripture says differently:

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

G450
ἀνίστημι
anistēmi
Thayer Definition:
1) to cause to rise up, raise up
1a) raise up from laying down
1b) to raise up from the dead
1c) to raise up, cause to be born, to cause to appear, bring forward
2) to rise, stand up
2a) of persons lying down, of persons lying on the ground
2b) of persons seated
2c) of those who leave a place to go elsewhere
2c1) of those who prepare themselves for a journey
2d) of the dead
3) at arise, appear, stand forth
3a) of kings prophets, priests, leaders of insurgents
3b) of those about to enter into conversation or dispute with anyone, or to undertake some business, or attempt something against others
3c) to rise up against any one
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G303 and G2476
Citing in TDNT: 1:368, 60

The dead in Christ RISING means they are resurrecting from being dead.

 

[Douggg]

That would be a big negatory! The seals seal the book, and when they are opened, they are forgotten.

The seals were on the book. When they were opened, it allowed John and all present in heaven to see what the events are that were in the book. The events are forthcoming, but the seals opened is something that happened as John and them in heaven looked on.

 

[Timtofly]

Scripture says differently:

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

G450
ἀνίστημι
anistēmi
Thayer Definition:
1) to cause to rise up, raise up
1a) raise up from laying down
1b) to raise up from the dead
1c) to raise up, cause to be born, to cause to appear, bring forward
2) to rise, stand up
2a) of persons lying down, of persons lying on the ground
2b) of persons seated
2c) of those who leave a place to go elsewhere
2c1) of those who prepare themselves for a journey
2d) of the dead
3) at arise, appear, stand forth
3a) of kings prophets, priests, leaders of insurgents
3b) of those about to enter into conversation or dispute with anyone, or to undertake some business, or attempt something against others
3c) to rise up against any one
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G303 and G2476
Citing in TDNT: 1:368, 60

The dead in Christ RISING means they are resurrecting from being dead.

All of the dead have risen first. They are already changed and in Paradise. They shall keep rising first every time they leave this body of dust. 2 Corinthians 5 is the follow up on what happens at death. To be absent from this body is to be present in the heavenly body. The incorruptible body is the heavenly body. Those who die are not prevented by those alive, thus they do not have to wait for the living to have their resurrected bodies. The dead in Christ are already changed. They will come back with Christ. That is why John says in Revelation 6, in the 5th seal those under the alter get a robe of white first and wait for those living to join them. Paul says the wait is not long, John does not mention incorruptible bodies happening, but the immortality part. The robe of white, the joining of the spirit with the soul and body as one, glorified bodies. Then they come with God on the throne and the Lamb per Paul. Those alive meet them in the sky above the earth. The temple is where God is on the throne. Those hiding from God in the 6th seal see God and all the church in the temple above them. They are still on the ground finding a mountain cave to hide in. John says all this happens before he sees the two beast, Satan and the FP, during the 7th Trumpet. The 6th seal is opened before the first Trumpet even sounds. Jesus Christ has come to collect the final harvest. The completed, glorified church being the firstfruits. Then sheep and goats are separated. Then wheat and tares are gathered. Then Satan gets to glean the empty fields for 42 months. That is the Chronology both Jesus Christ and John gave.

Only Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 claims a lawless one will be revealed. That would be, Satan, who would be pointed out as the "man" deceiving the whole world. Something is yet to happen perhaps a terrible war, 4th seal, when the fourth beast will say go, and Satan will be revealed, but 25% of humanity will die. Perhaps the church will figure out what Satan has done and their powerful influence will oust Satan. We are not told the how, but it is not by some AC Human leadership. John only mentions an image and a beast not fit to be called human. Would John convey to the 1st century the term robot, or would Frankenstein of the 1800's work? Or just a beast? But Satan will have to wait for the harvest first, either way, exposed or not exposed. We will hear of wars and rumors of wars, no?

 

[iamlamad]

The seals were on the book. When they were opened, it allowed John and all present in heaven to see what the events are that were in the book. The events are forthcoming, but the seals opened is something that happened as John and them in heaven looked on.

It does take a certain amount of wisdom to determine just where the church is today in Revelation. In other words, what events are now history and what events are "forthcoming?"

 

[iamlamad]

Scripture says differently:

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

G450
ἀνίστημι
anistēmi
Thayer Definition:
1) to cause to rise up, raise up
1a) raise up from laying down
1b) to raise up from the dead
1c) to raise up, cause to be born, to cause to appear, bring forward
2) to rise, stand up
2a) of persons lying down, of persons lying on the ground
2b) of persons seated
2c) of those who leave a place to go elsewhere
2c1) of those who prepare themselves for a journey
2d) of the dead
3) at arise, appear, stand forth
3a) of kings prophets, priests, leaders of insurgents
3b) of those about to enter into conversation or dispute with anyone, or to undertake some business, or attempt something against others
3c) to rise up against any one
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G303 and G2476
Citing in TDNT: 1:368, 60

The dead in Christ RISING means they are resurrecting from being dead.

The dead in Christ RISING means they are resurrecting from being dead. Pretty basic stuff. It is amazing some people can't even believe our dictionaries.

 

[BABerean2]

The dead in Christ RISING means they are resurrecting from being dead. Pretty basic stuff. It is amazing some people can't even believe our dictionaries.

You are correct.
Some do not understand the meaning of the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


The New Covenant: Bob George

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[Douggg]

It does take a certain amount of wisdom to determine just where the church is today in Revelation. In other words, what events are now history and what events are "forthcoming?"

If you are talking about in Revelation 6, beginning with the rider on the white horse - everything is future to us, but near future.

When that rider shows and given a crown, meaning either becoming the leader of the EU, or becoming the King of Israel the Antichrist - there will be 7 years left, and things get progressively worse until Jesus Returns.

Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to Jews who will go through the great tribulation.
Matthew 24:32-51 is a message to Christians on how not to have to go through the great tribulation.

By the parable of the fig tree, Christians can know the season that the great tribulation will take place. And consequently the Rapture to avoid it. We are in the season.