The End of Marriage

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Shane Roach

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The End of Marriage

Of most interest to me, "Despite the reluctance of Scandinavian social scientists to study the consequences of family dissolution for children, we do have an excellent study that followed the life experiences of all children born in Stockholm in 1953. (Not coincidentally, the research was conducted by a British scholar, Duncan W.G. Timms.) That study found that regardless of income or social status, parental breakup had negative effects on children's mental health. Boys living with single, separated, or divorced mothers had particularly high rates of impairment in adolescence. An important 2003 study by Gunilla Ringbäck Weitoft, et al. found that children of single parents in Sweden have more than double the rates of mortality, severe morbidity, and injury of children in two parent households. This held true after controlling for a wide range of demographic and socioeconomic circumstances."

Another quite obvious result of this trend, about which liberals will no doubt hoot and jeer, is that a culture whose birth rates and social fabric are this weak cannot help but fall to the strong influence of a culture with a higher birth rate and stronger social mores and folkways. In Europe, there can be little doubt that this culture is broadly going to be Muslim. I know Muslim's who've lived in England who state large swaths of the cityscape are simply devoid of Europeans, and they are openly proud of their own unique heritage and the way in which they are more or less sweeping away the original inhabitants.

I'd be interested to know how Sweden specifically is dealing with this. I know from the book Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali that immigration from Muslim nations at least in the Netherlands is relatively steady.

What people do not, I think, understand commonly is that the face of Islam in the west is not that of the raving extremist. They are, like many of the minorities from afar, hard working and professional. This does not change the fact that the underlying culture is not at all conducive to democratic governance, nor is the society as peaceful and serene as the general presentation of its proponents. Again, I can recommend the book I mentioned earlier, Infidel, by Ayaan Ali.

This road we are jogging down is not the innocent little side trail we are being led to believe, in my opinion.
 

quatona

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is that a culture whose birth rates and social fabric are this weak cannot help but fall to the strong influence of a culture with a higher birth rate and stronger social mores and folkways

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Do you advocate a culture with high birth rate and strong social mores and folkways?
So - if the Muslims take over because they have higher birth rates and stronger social mores and folkways - what are you complaining about?
 
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Shane Roach

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Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Do you advocate a culture with high birth rate and strong social mores and folkways?
So - if the Muslims take over because they have higher birth rates and stronger social mores and folkways - what are you complaining about?

Why would you ask this? Can you perhaps think of another way, a more logical way, of understanding what I said? This is certainly not what I said or meant.

I'd be interested to know how you got to this from what I said.
 
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quatona

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Why would you ask this?
Because that´s the question I have after reading the article.

Can you perhaps think of another way, a more logical way, of understanding what I said?
No, not yet. Since your conclusions appear to be contradicting themselves, I´d need an explanation in order to see any logic in them.

This is certainly not what I said or meant.
Then please explain what you meant. Trying to answer the questions would be nice start. If you feel unable to answer the questions, feel free to explain what you meant to say freely.


I'd be interested to know how you got to this from what I said.
Since I asked questions I didn´t even pretend to "get" anything. Actually, that´s why I asked questions instead of making statements.
I´ll try again:
a. You describe a weak culture with low birth rates and social fabric, with weak social mores and folkways. Correct?
Question: Is that a good thing or a bad thing, in your opinion?
b. Next you predict that such a culture is likely to be overtaken by a culture with high birthrates and social fabric and with stronger social mores and folkways. Did I get that right?
Question: Is that a good or a bad thing, in your opinion?

Afaics, if society as described in a. is a bad thing, the process as described in b. as well as the overtaking culture would have to be considered good.
 
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cgcsb

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The End of Marriage

Another quite obvious result of this trend, about which liberals will no doubt hoot and jeer, is that a culture whose birth rates and social fabric are this weak cannot help but fall to the strong influence of a culture with a higher birth rate and stronger social mores and folkways. In Europe, there can be little doubt that this culture is broadly going to be Muslim. I know Muslim's who've lived in England who state large swaths of the cityscape are simply devoid of Europeans, and they are openly proud of their own unique heritage and the way in which they are more or less sweeping away the original inhabitants.

Muslims in Britain live in the most deprived and derilict areas of the Cities. Look at Bradford. Them moving there didn't force the locals to move out. They simply chose to. Things change. Cities change.

In Dublin, Ireland. More than 50% of the inhabitants of some parts of North Inner City Dublin are foriegn born. They live in places that would be otherwise uninhabited. In spite of this, I can assure you that there is no danger of them outbreeding the Irish population. Besides Irish muslims are no less Irish than Irish Christians just as British Muslims are no less British than British Christians
 
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Shane Roach

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Gay marriage activists claim that gay marriage does not damage the institution of marriage itself, and that there is no connection between the gay marriage agenda and atheist, socialist policy. This article debunks that claim, in my opinion.

It also points out that despite correcting for issues such as wealth, kids suffer when raised by single parents. There is no shortage of evidence that kids need both a father and a mother in other research as well.
 
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quatona

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Gay marriage activists claim that gay marriage does not damage the institution of marriage itself, and that there is no connection between the gay marriage agenda and atheist, socialist policy. This article debunks that claim, in my opinion.
Don´t know about the article. I merely read your OP, in which you talked about Islam as the future culture replacing the current one in Europe - not about gay marriage, atheism or socialism being Europe´s future.
<staff edit>
Whatever, I wasn&#180;t aware that Islam was big in promoting gay marriage, single parenthood, socialism and atheism (or atheists or socialists or gay activists favouring Islam, for that matter) - but, oh well, you learn something new every day.
 
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simo92

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I believe that the Arabs are going to take europe and the west over.just because their birth rate is quite steady and consistent,this is reinforced by religious teachings and cultural heritage.We should really think how face the fact that Arabs are day after day outnumbring us,and there's no doubt that Islam will be the first religion is America by 2020.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Gay marriage activists claim that gay marriage does not damage the institution of marriage itself, and that there is no connection between the gay marriage agenda and atheist, socialist policy. This article debunks that claim, in my opinion.

It also points out that despite correcting for issues such as wealth, kids suffer when raised by single parents. There is no shortage of evidence that kids need both a father and a mother in other research as well.
Your statistical analysis is quite flawed: all you know is that single parents are worse than couples at raising children. What you don't know is whether opposite-couples are better than same-sex couples.

That is, you've just assumed that single parents are worse because they don't have a male and a female figure, but there is simply no reason to believe this. Indeed, no matter what the relation between the welfare of children and the gender pairing of their parents, it is simply logistically and economically better to have two parents than one (two people earning money is obviously better than one, regardless of their gender).

Moreover, there have been over four decades of studies into the efficacy of same-sex parenting. The results show that:

  • There is no difference between children raised by same-sex parents and children raised by opposite-sexed parents.
  • Female-female couples are actually slightly better at raising kids than male-male or male-female couples.
So please, show us this evidence that children need a mother and a father (to the extent that anything other than a male-female parental unit are bad).
 
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Jade Margery

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When it comes to studies determining who´s better at raising kids, I´d be strongly interested in how exactly success and failure are supposed to be measured in this field, anyway.

Without knowing for sure, I would guess they would take a look at the school performance, dietary health and activeness of the kid.

And Shane, the reason one parent is not as good as two is because one parent usually has to work more than they would in two parent situation and therefore they have much less time to spend with the kid. I doubt it has anything to do with the gender of the parent involved--dedicated single dads are as good as dedicated single moms. Besides, what you are spouting is at best a weak argument for why gay people shouldn't have kids, not why they shouldn't get married... unless you really think that homosexual marriage is going to increase divorce rates among heterosexuals?:scratch:
 
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quatona

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Gay marriage activists claim that gay marriage does not damage the institution of marriage itself,
I have yet to be shown how a man marrying a man damages (or in any way affects) my (heterosexual) marriage or makes the kids that result from my marriage suffer. I´m all ears.

and that there is no connection between the gay marriage agenda and atheist, socialist policy. This article debunks that claim, in my opinion.
I guess the connection between atheism and not being opposed to homosexuality and homosexual marriage is that there is no rational non-religious reason against it.
The connection between socialism and gay marriage seems to escape me completely. Maybe you could do us a favour and summarize the argument.

There is no shortage of evidence that kids need both a father and a mother in other research as well.
If there is no shortage of such evidence, it should be no problem to bring it to the table - as opposed to merely claiming that there is.
 
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quatona

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Without knowing for sure, I would guess they would take a look at the school performance, dietary health and activeness of the kid.
Possibly. What however we can know for sure is that there must be some particular value system underlying the valuating results of such researches.
Personally, without knowing for sure what this particular value system is that such a result is based upon, I wouldn´t touch it with a ten foot pole, even less using it as an argument.
Typically, btw., they tend to be circular. (e.g.: 'Single parenthood damages kids - the kids will have less stable relationships´).

But let´s assume for a moment that the criteria you mention are indeed the ones underlying those judgements.
Children who have two parents of the opposite sex vary so drastically in all these respects that any statement that claims the number and gender of the parents to be the or a major factor is ridiculous right away. At best it could be assumed to be one in countless factors that may be of some statistical value but completely irrelevant for the reality of individual relationships, lack thereof and individual kids.

On another note, e.g. kids who are abused by their fathers would certainly be better off without these father. Thus simplifying statements like "a child need a father and a mother" can be rejected right away. One good father is certainly preferable to a bad mother and a bad father.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To CGCSB,
Muslims in Britain live in the most deprived and derilict areas of the Cities. Look at Bradford. Them moving there didn't force the locals to move out. They simply chose to. Things change. Cities change.
That&#8217;s far too much of a generalisation. Many poorer muslims live in deprived areas, there are areas of towns and cities where many richer Muslims predominate. That Muslims would gather together isnt anything any group wouldn&#8217;t do.
 
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Maren

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Since I posted this elsewhere (because you posted this link on another thread) let me copy it here. This article shows some of the flaws in the article you posted and how he manipulates statistics to make his point.

Two other points. First, gay marriage has not been legal in Scandinavia until this year -- it became legal in Norway in January and will become legal in Sweden next month. As such, gay marriage cannot be the cause of the decline of marriage in Scandinavia. And I believe you've previously stated you have no problem with gays being given something other than marriage that is tailored to their relationships (civil unions), which is what Scandinavia has done.

Second, Scandinavia is chosen because historically their marriage, divorce, cohabitation and other marital rates are lower than the rest of the Western world -- it was this way years before gay marriage was even considered. Additionally, the worst years were the decades of the 70s and 80s, since that time things have largely leveled off and even started improving. The fact that rates are still bad today has nothing to do with gay marriage, and the statistical decline in marriage rates has occurred similarly in almost every Western country (with just a couple of exceptions) including those that do not give rights to gay couples; which shows the decline in marriage rates is unrelated to gay marriage but rather other society factors.
 
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