the emerging church...

[hydrive]

Is anyone familiar with the Emerging Church? Post modernism?

I'm trying to figure out why people are replacing God & religion with worldly objects & pleasures... to attract people who don't like church...

so what that says to me is this... "lets make church... not church... so people who don't like church will go to this not church. But it'll be trickery... because to us it's church... but to them... it's comfortable".... mmmm... make sense?

It doesn't for me either. I think that truth is being sacrificed for an acceptance of pleasure.

 

[faithpilgrim]

There may be different reasons for this movement depending on the motive of the ones in leadership. Some seem to equate success of the church as gathering lots of sheep in the pen. That also equates more money for the leaders and their big buildings and programs, more control over others, etc. Sometimes it is just a power trip for them.

Some may really believe that going to church saves people and thus try to get them all in even if it makes no difference in the person’s life. They fool themselves and the ones they lead.

For others it is just a social club and they could care less about the beliefs or teachings as long as they have a basketball team, pool, etc. etc. according to their specific interests.

The scripture speaks of those teachers who tickle the itching ears or rather who make church comfortable. These are considered the blind leading the blind into the ditch.

We are told we must enter the kingdom through much tribulation. Therefore don’t get too comfy in the worldly entertainment centers or the customs of traditional church.

One must wonder why traditional church has to be so formal as to make John the Baptist uncomfortable in his animal hide? Even Jesus would feel unwelcome in many churches today, traditional or emergent.

Can’t we keep it simple? Love Christ and do as he would do without all the trappings of old customs or new entertainments. What do those things have to do with loving God and neighbors?

 

[sampa]

Is anyone familiar with the Emerging Church? Post modernism?

I'm trying to figure out why people are replacing God & religion with worldly objects & pleasures... to attract people who don't like church...

so what that says to me is this... "lets make church... not church... so people who don't like church will go to this not church. But it'll be trickery... because to us it's church... but to them... it's comfortable".... mmmm... make sense?

It doesn't for me either. I think that truth is being sacrificed for an acceptance of pleasure.

Yes, I have questions about it also.?? There's tons of debate out there, but lately I've been thinking about how there needs to be a way to communicate to the changing culture.

 

[Kvikklunsj]

Is anyone familiar with the Emerging Church? Post modernism?

I'm trying to figure out why people are replacing God & religion with worldly objects & pleasures... to attract people who don't like church...

so what that says to me is this... "lets make church... not church... so people who don't like church will go to this not church. But it'll be trickery... because to us it's church... but to them... it's comfortable".... mmmm... make sense?

It doesn't for me either. I think that truth is being sacrificed for an acceptance of pleasure.

I've been doing some reading about it lately, and I don't think it's about watering down Christianity in order to make people happy at all -- as I understand it, they try to take more of a holistic approach towards living a Christian life. Serving God shouldn't be something we put into a little box and do by focusing on an endless number of programs and following steps one, two, and three. It's about our relationship with God and showing that to others by being real with them in all aspects of our interactions, not just treating them as means to an end.

And I see plenty of compromise, pandering to what people want to hear, turning worship into entertainment, turning church into a social club, etc., in other denominations. There isn't just one group that has a monopoly on that.

 

[Johnnz]

There are some very good things being expressed by people who identify with the emerging church. Brian McClaren's book "A Generous Orthodoxy" is a very readable and well expressed book that contains many elements of the emerging church perspectives. There are some good web sites too.

John
NZ

 

[whitedove7]

Here is a link that has info and you can make your own conclusion for yourself with info:

http://www.lighthousetrails.com/

 

[hydrive]

I have done some research, read a book & some websites...

A pretty biased opinion comes from John MacArthur. I don't know if anyone has read his latest "The Truth War"... It's pretty much completely against the emerging Church. I strongly recommend it for both enthusiasts & haters.

 

[Johnnz]

Change has always been resisted by the 'establishment'. Luther, Wycliffe publishing the bible, Baptists, the Pilgrim Fathers, the modern charismatic movement have all been rejected by mainstream churches.

Modern American fundamentalism is a cultural phenomenon, and many traditional evangelical patterns were established in a different period. A healthy reappraisal and biblical examination of the church and how we relate to our times will benefit us all.

John
NZ

 

[jane1]

Attracting seekers, and saving souls is one thing, but using self-centered programs sprinkled with half-truths is un-biblical. Attracting new believers is of no use if what they beleive is a deception.

I agree with FaithPilgrim, and with the statement by author John MacArthur;

"... the weapon of spiritual warfare is truth..."

Clearly the war has crossed the threshold of the church.

 

[Johnnz]

Attracting seekers, and saving souls is one thing, but using self-centered programs sprinkled with half-truths is un-biblical. Attracting new believers is of no use if what they beleive is a deception.

I agree with FaithPilgrim, and with the statement by author John MacArthur;

"... the weapon of spiritual warfare is truth..."

Clearly the war has crossed the threshold of the church.

There is considerable biblical grounds for seriously questioning the sin centred, professional ministry controlled, building dependent, over programmed church that we are familiar with. None of this can be traced to the NT teaching and practice.

As with most Christian groups the emerging church contains many diverse views, not all of which remain true to the biblical position. But not all have abandoned good doctrine for something else. To that extent Montgomery is plainly wrong.

John
NZ

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

EC is just another alternative way of being church.

Avoid the "gimmicky" EC's and you'll be fine. It's about churching it in and with the world, rather than drawing lines between people.

Personally, I never did find christian rhetoric helpful to knowing or approaching Jesus, so a more relational church makes total sense to me.

Some of us are better suited to ambiguity, an ambiguous orthodoxy

x

 

[BrotherDave]

Well, if you believe we are in or very near the end times then it would make sense that there is such a falling away of organized religions today. All one has to do is compare a church of today vs just 50 years ago to see changing doctrine, pleasurable music, increasing approval of sin and not much said about the sad state of man (Psalm 14:3, Rom 3:10) and God’s approaching wrath.

God warned that judgment would start at His house (I Peter 4:17) and that He would allow Satan to come as an angel of light and assume his seat in the temple (II Thess 2:4 , Mark 13:14, Matt 24:15, Revelation 13:7). Sadly, many believe that they can be happy and live a blissful life because some person said they were saved and have nothing to worry about (I Th 5:3). Unfortunately, like a single lustful thought is enough to bring God’s punishment a single change in scripture creates a false doctrine that will not bring salvation (Gal 1; 9, Eph 4:14). These are the ones Christ will turn away even though they believed they were doing good works (Mat 15:8, Matt 7:13, 22, Luke 13:27).

Seems that this is the time of great tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24: 21, a spiritual battle where many are driven deeper into sin, like in the days of Noah (Matt 24:37-39), Sodom and Gomorrah (2 Peter 2:6). But at the same time, God indicates that now a great multitude are being saved (Rev 7:9-14) because they recognize and are uncomfortable with man made doctrine and flee from them. I believe this tribulation strikes at home where one family member enjoys going to a church and another feels deeply troubled in his soul. What are you going to do? Take a stand for God or please your loved ones? Very tough indeed.

Today more than ever we need to prayfully study scripture and ask God for wisdom, understanding and strength so that we may live to His glory and not fall victim to what we think is best for the world and pleasurable for us. Remember, a friend of the world is an enemy of God (James 4:4).

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

True, the Church is probably more rife with "sin" now than ever.

 

[Frank1]

While I believe that there are many reasons that preachers have bought and sold doves today and watered down the word denying the Lord my favorite reason is that it all boils down to greed, slothfulness and disobedience.
If the preacher preaches the truth the people will not attend.
If the people do not attend the church receives no tithes.
If the church receives no tithes the convention or international fires the preacher.
If the preacher gets fired he has to get a job and work like a man to earn an honest living and pay for his ministry like Paul did.
But we can't have that because he's called!
May God bless.
Frank

 

[somasoul]

*Excessive amounts of sarcasm ahead*

Well, if you believe we are in or very near the end times then it would make sense that there is such a falling away of organized religions today. All one has to do is compare a church of today vs just 50 years ago to see changing doctrine, pleasurable music, increasing approval of sin and not much said about the sad state of man (Psalm 14:3, Rom 3:10) and God’s approaching wrath.

Yeah, the church of 50 years ago was a lot more Godly then the churches of today.

The church 50 years ago not only tolerated racial segregation but often supported organizations that proclaimed hate and violence.

The Catholic Church still used Latin, a language the people couldn't even understand.

The church of 50 years ago had just supported the American Military in the use of the atomic bomb on the Japanese, while across the sea the Church was avid supporter gassing incalcuable numbers of Jews.

The church 50 years ago had a man named Martin Luther King Jr. who, while being a great leader to integrate the races, liked to cheat on his wife.

The church 50 years ago did nothing while Japanese Americans were being rounded up and put in concentration camps within our own borders.

Yeah, obviously the hymns we were singing and the ties we were wearing made us more Godly.

*end sarcasm*

It was all a front, some makeup, we were prettier, but not any better. The church then, as it is now, is choked with sinners. Thank God we're saved.

 

[BBgrey]

Well said, brother Dave. With all the talk on this thread about the church spiraling downward, it is really refreshing (and humbling) to be reminded of how God has already been redeeming us.

And he continues...

The emergent movement is a reaction against some of the current traits of mainline churches (especially mega-churches):

the thought that bigger is always better, the focus on programs rather than people, the pattern of singing being the only way people can participate in worship, the tendency to use scripture to proof-text rather than to tell the story of God, the ability for people to just come to church "to get something out of it" and slip out unnoticed, the lack of sacred-ness in the auditorium, etc.

I don't think anyone can look at the mainline churches and say, "this is just how God wants it to be." Unfortunately, there is a tendency for Christians in mainline churches to resist change and protect what they have worked hard to establish.

Consider that God just might be using the emergent movement to redeem his people from those modern maladies.

Ironically, there are plenty of seeker-sensitive and mega churches who have started to have "emergent" services as part of their desire to be seeker sensitive. This isn't really addressing all the problems that people take issue with.

Since "emergent" is a new term and not well-defined, you really have to examine each church individually. "Emergent" does not mean "liberal"or "conservative", it generally is not describing theology, and you'll find emergent churches on both sides of the spectrum.

God works in mysterious ways.

bbgrey

---by the way, I recommend "The Great Giveaway" by Dave Fitch if you want to delve deeper. You can visit his blogsite, too. There's a lot of interesting though on the emergent movement there: http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/

 

[Koey]

Is anyone familiar with the Emerging Church?...

The Emerging Church is NOT a unified movement. It is a description of what is happening in the past few years and can be summed up with a saying that is often used today to describe the movement:

the church is leaving the building​

What that means to me is that people are no longer impressed with either tradition or fads but with the Christianity of Christ. They no longer attend a building, but have informal gatherings. I read somewhere that a third of those in the movement are former church leaders: pastors, choir directors, priests, deacons, etc. Although I believe in the Nicene and Apostles Creeds, they are not Scripture and as such have a much lower place than is often given them. Hence, another saying which perhaps sums up the Emerging Church in my words might be

our creed is the logia, the sayings of Christ​

That having been said, as with every movement, the wolves have moved in and there certainly are heretics and wackos around. Those who have decided to leave the building because they are tired of politics, power plays, abuse, vain traditions and half-baked fads have to face a barrage of hawkers of idiot religion who want to find a following. However, that is no different to the hawkers of indulgences to pay for Saint Peter's Bascilica and a thousand other falsehoods that have attached themselves to the Church throughout history.

If people adhere to one of the positives of the Emerging Church movement, such as treating the logia as of first importance, the idiotic elements will hopefully fade into insignificance and people can focus on the Christianity of Christ.

 

[dayhiker]

I was just listening to a podcast by tony and doug. They were talking about the start of emergent. They were saying it was just meant to me a name for a group of freinds that like to get together and talk about being missional and starting churches etc. It was a name for a group of Christian friends that gave themselves a name.

Interesting what has happened since then.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Campolo and Pagitt?

Campolo is still very main stream by preference. Not sure where Doug is.

You'll feel part of EC for a while before realising its not the word around church that is the problem, it's what we think church is, or more poingantly, who our church is.

 

[GorrionGris]

*Excessive amounts of sarcasm ahead*

[/FONT][/FONT]

Yeah, the church of 50 years ago was a lot more Godly then the churches of today.

The church 50 years ago not only tolerated racial segregation but often supported organizations that proclaimed hate and violence.

The Catholic Church still used Latin, a language the people couldn't even understand.

The church of 50 years ago had just supported the American Military in the use of the atomic bomb on the Japanese, while across the sea the Church was avid supporter gassing incalcuable numbers of Jews.

The church 50 years ago had a man named Martin Luther King Jr. who, while being a great leader to integrate the races, liked to cheat on his wife.

The church 50 years ago did nothing while Japanese Americans were being rounded up and put in concentration camps within our own borders.

Yeah, obviously the hymns we were singing and the ties we were wearing made us more Godly.

*end sarcasm*

It was all a front, some makeup, we were prettier, but not any better. The church then, as it is now, is choked with sinners. Thank God we're saved.

I was not expecting sarcasm from a follower of Menno Simmons.

(and this is not sarcasm )