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The elephant in the room: the massive, looming problem of the Christian Right.

Nov 16, 2009
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It's exactly that though sister.

It's the "gay marriage is wrong", and "abortion is wrong" and you can't do that......etc etc etc.

well of course theyre wrong. We know that. They know that. But ALL sin is wrong. All of us are condemned in this flesh. No sin is greater than another, yet we try to impose the laws on some sin while we blatantly cling to the sin we feel justified doing as if God sees a difference.

Im not a homosexual, and Ive never had or been a part of an abortion. But I do not and am not b/c I choose not to, not b/c the govt says I can't.

I've lusted after women, lied, and been greedy in my life. Am I less a sinner b/c the govt does not regulate my lust or my greed or my integrity?

Jesus tells us to remove the plank from our eye before we try to call out a neighbor for the speck in his.
I suggest that we, as the Christian R, had better quit being greedy, lying, tax cheats who lust after women in our congregations and outside them, who dress as harlots in God's house, as well as outside it.....yeah, I suggest we remove the plank.......except we can't. B/C we're fallible humans, dependent soley on God's mercy for our very existence. Just the same as the homosexuals and the poor women who for whichever reason decide to murder one of God's other children.

with utmost, UTMOST, love and respect,
your brother,
charles
 
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Psalm 91

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How is saying that "abortion is wrong" and "gay marriage is wrong" "forcing" our religion on anyone? They are wrong and we have freedom of speech in this country.

The difference between our sins and those of liberal minded people who believe in something condemned in Scripture is that we know when we have sinned and we repent. It doesn't stop us from sinning again. We keep trying to be obedient always but we are sinners. However, we ask for forgiveness. Those who believe that abortion and gay marriage are okay don't believe that they are sinning.
 
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Albion

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The first thing we have to do in order to be able to help you is make you aware that this rich vs poor stuff you're referring to is merely socialist TALK. Socialism doesn't actually accomplish such a change, but it does prevent upward social and economic mobility, opportunity, and choice.

In other words, you have to first get beyond the propaganda that is supposed to inflame the uninformed with emotional appeals to envy (not very Jesus-like either, if we're making those kind of comparisons).

Are you willing to do that?

Another thing I don't get is the glorification of the military. War is bad. I mean, of course there are such things as a just war, but I think we should do everything we can to prevent wars. Maybe I'm just a silly young idealist?
Everyone who knows war is against it. So who is pursuing war today? Oh, it's the party of the President, isn't it? We're fighting a war that he basically made his own and stoked up...all for no gain. So if it comes to the glorification of war, why don't we start with those who are waging war right now and begin our examination there? And perhaps you remember that only a month or so ago, President Obama wanted to get us into yet another war in Syria, and was only stopped by public opinion. And that was after spending a billion dollars waging war in Libya. None of those with a declaration of war or Congressional approval, of course.

Also, the whole gun culture. You know, if Jesus were around today I'm sure he would have a large collection of guns in his basement.
It's a freedom guaranteed by the Constitution, that's all.

And the environment. I'm not sure, don't you think Jesus would want us to protect the environment?
Did you hear that the President just guaranteed wind farms the right, for thirty years, to violate our laws on migratory birds? Thousands of eagles and other birds are killed each hear by these machines and now the owners get a pass. How exactly is that protecting the "environment?"

I know quite a few people you deem "Christian Right." I don't know any who say what you just said here.

It just all makes me facepalm, folks. A lot of Christians claim to love the Bible and the Constitution. But the Constitution is not a religious document. It is a secular document.
Well, we've already covered your opposition to the Constitution when we came to the idea that to support the Second Amendment makes one a part of some "gun culture."

lot of Republicans don't believe in global warming even though they know absolutely nothing about it.
What, exactly, do you know other than that the prophets of global warming have been wrong? Al Gore flies around the globe making speeches about it and burning fuel into the atmosphere at a rate equal to some small nation, and his prediction that that North Polar region would be completely without any snow and ice cover by now hasn't proven true. The same scientists who said there is a warming trend now are saying we're facing prolonged cooling.

Well, that's just for starters. Study always beats the easy answers.
 
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josephearl

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Um, actually, I was referring to the many Freemasons at the time of the Revolutionary War and afterward, which I didn't learn in school, but learned later.

Sorry--you should have specifically mentioned the Freemasons.

Are you speaking of the Quakers being executed in England or here because I never heard of them being executed in this country.

No, I specifically referenced the Quakers who were killed by the Puritians here in North America. The Puritians wanted the freedom to practice their own faith, but didn't necessarily want to extend that freedom to others.
 
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ProudMomxmany

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Forcing restrictions on abortion, contraception, who can marry who. You're superimposing YOUR moral views on things that you have no business being in.
The prejudice against other religious groups right here in the USA. You want the "freedom" to have the nativity scene in the public square but lose your minds if someone wants a menorah or anything else in that same public square.

If you want to obey the Lord, you would shut up and live by example. Jesus preached. You don't. Remember "....and the greatest of these is love". Go remind yourself of what true religion is. Get out of politics, get off the airwaves and LIVE what you believe instead of just spewing your hateful rhetoric and making yourself out to be oh-so superior to everyone else. You have no idea whether or not you're going to make it to glory at the end, and I don't believe that these hateful so-called Christians who think they're doing God's will will hear "well done my good and faithful servant" at the end.
 
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Will I ever stop saying homosexuality is wrong, a sin? Will I ever stop saying abortion is wrong, and a sin?? No, I won't. I won't ever call evil good.
Will I ask you stop calling evil a sin???? No, I wouldnt dare ask you to silence your voice, or stop shining your light of Christ Jesus.

Take your message to the streets if your'e able. I will join you if i am able. Let's get together and teach the message of Christ Jesus, and teach the Kingdom of Heaven to all who will hear.

But, my voice extend to only those who will listen, who will "take and eat". I will not force a man to stop sinning unless his/her sin is violating another. Abortion in a touchy subject, and I can not put myself in a women's shoes, but I know that any type of physical harm or contempt to harm another is MURDER in our Lord's eyes, so I can't even judge a women for having an abortion, committing a murder.....b/c I too, am guilty just the same for my thoughts.

I don't think we should legislate the LAW. Only God can, and He proved we can not, and that is why He sent our Lord Jesus to pay for our sins. We simply can not and will not obey it.

I pray that every women who thinks she needs an abortion will have a visit form the Holy Spirit, and her eyes would be opened. I pray that every man and women who think they need physical love from someone of the same sex would have a similar experience with the Holy Spirit.

I just don't think the govt needs to be the deciding factor in whether or not we will obey God's Law.
 
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RDKirk

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RDKirk

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No, I specifically referenced the Quakers who were killed by the Puritians here in North America. The Puritians wanted the freedom to practice their own faith, but didn't necessarily want to extend that freedom to others.

That is why they persecuted Roger Williams (who was a Puritan, not even a Quaker) and forced him to establish the colony of Rhode Island as the first colony that guaranteed complete religious freedom. Williams even specifically guaranteed freedom for the atheist and the Muslim.

Williams was a facinating guy. In addition to founding Rhode Island, he also founded the first Baptist church in America and was the first Abolitionist in America.

Williams evangelized to the Indians, but he also angered the Massachussetts government because having gianed the trust of the Indians, he warned them against making unfair agreements. He told the Indians, to paraphrase, "Jesus is true, but those Christians want to pick your pockets."

He was also the person who coined the phrase, "wall of separation between Church and State." The actual quote is "hedge of separation between the garden of the Church and the wilderness of the State," which expresses why he felt such a separation was necessary.

The quote comes from his 1644 treatise, "The Bloudy Tenent of Persecution for the Sake of Conscience." It's in "King James" English, so it's a tough read, but Williams outlines all the bloody consequences suffered by Christians because of the Church being in bed with the King since the time of Constantine.

One hundred and fifty years later, the Baptist convention that Williams had founded was still wary of a strong federal government, which is why Jefferson cribbed the words of their own founder to convince the Danbury Baptist Church to accept the new government.

Even then, it was Williams' state Rhode Island that single-handedly blocked ratification of the Constitution until the First Amendment was written and ratified. The day after they heard the Bill of Rights was ratified, Rhode Island signed off on the Constitution as the last state necessary.
 
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RDKirk

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If you read Acts 2, Acts 3, and 2 Corinthians 8, it's exceedingly clear that what scripture does require within the Body of Christ is the redistribution of wealth as necessary to make sure all members everywhere have their needs met, even to the point of economic equality. Of course, no Americans want to hear that, because the patron god of Americans is actually Mammon.

Another thing I don't get is the glorification of the military. War is bad. I mean, of course there are such things as a just war, but I think we should do everything we can to prevent wars. Maybe I'm just a silly young idealist?

I'm a military guy. There is a subtle distinction to be made between glorifying war and respecting the soldiers who fight it.

For one thing, the basic ethical framework of the soldier is the same as the Christian...it's just the commander that is different. That's why only a soldier was able to "astound" Jesus with his faith...a soldier "gets it."

Most soldiers fight for different reasons than most governments go to war. No war is ever declared by a poor man or a working man. Wars are always declared by the wealthy and powerful to maintain and enhance their wealth and power. They then concoct moralistic reasons to bring the shopkeeper and farmer on board.

I can assure you, the average American soldier does believe he's fighting in the Middle East for moral ideals, but I can also assure you that if there were no oil on the Saudi Peninsula and no sweet deals between the Saudis and US oil companies, the US would not have fought any wars there. It was stationing a standing force of American troops in Saudi Arabia that led directly to the bombing of the World Trade Center, so even the war in Afghanistan would not have occured, except for the oil company contracts in Saudi Arabia.

Glorification of war is a different thing, falling under the heading of "nationalism" to be discussed in a moment.

Also, the whole gun culture. You know, if Jesus were around today I'm sure he would have a large collection of guns in his basement.

I don't get it either. Even if one argues the necessity of guns for self-defense, that does not explain the Christian fetish culture with guns.

And the environment. I'm not sure, don't you think Jesus would want us to protect the environment?

As stewards of creation, yes. If someone says, "We're wasting natural resources," the answer of a good steward should never be "We have plenty left."

Bill Gates has all the money in the world to pay his electric bill, but if I were the head butler in Bill Gates' mansion, as a good steward I would still turn off the lights in unoccupied rooms.

Jesus commanded us to preach the gospel "to all creation." I've thrashed that verse out through the Greek and through the scholars, and it always works out that "creation" here really does mean "the natural world."

That doesn't mean we walk up to a tree and recite John 3:16. But it does mean that our practice of the gospel should result in relief to the world that "groans" under the weight of sin.

One day God might ask, "Whatever happened to the elephants I created? I got a hoot out of designing elephants. What did you do to care for them?"

But the true patron god of the US is Mammon, and Mammon is the adversary in the issue of the environment.


Most Christians in America just don't know where their home is.

Read 1 Peter. We are citizens of Heaven deployed to these various earthly nations as aliens and sojourners. We are here to perform a mission of limited duration, then we're going home.

1 Peter is the field manual for how we are to relate to the natives of earthly nations as ambassadors of Christ. It goes into detail about the distinct difference of our cultural foundation and our different heritage. But we are not supposed to "go native" and begin acting like this is our home.

Also pertinent are 1 Timothy 2:2 and Romans 13.

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. -- 1 Timothy 2:1,2

This tells us what the state owes the Christian: Merely to be left in peace to live as a Christian. That's all. Benign neglect. I was in the Philippines when they had a "people's revolution" to oust Ferdinand Marcos. It was pretty interesting watching a revolutoin going on around us. But we didn't care that Marcos was being ousted because we already had the assurance of the incoming government that we would be able to continue our mission. Soldiers get this: It's all about the mission of the commander; we don't care about civilian affairs.

Romans 13 tells us what the Christian is to give to the government: Pay the due taxes, obey the laws, give due honor to the officials.

Going back to that soldier thing again, it's interesting that Romans 13 is exactly what US soldiers must obey when deployed overseas. We were also required by our commander to pay whatever taxes we were charged, to obey their laws, and to honor their officials. Soldiers get this: That did not make us think we were citizens of that country.

Once we understand this is not our home, a lot of 1st Century Christianity comes into focus.

Take for instance, "Lay not for yourself treasures on earth...." Think about this: Where does a soldier deployed to Afghanistan keep his savings account? In an Afgan bank? Of course not--he keeps his money in a bank back in his home nation.

That's why it makes total sense for a citizen of Heaven to accumulate his treasure in Heaven while he's deployed to a worldly nation. Soldiers get this: Keep your treasures in your real home.


The Founding Fathers made sure of this: That the federal government required no more of a Christian than Romans 13 and that the government did no more than 1 Timothy 2. They did an excellent job of writing into law the contract between Church and State as layed out by the New Testament.
 
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You have given me a project for next summer--to read up on Roger Williams. Thank you! This past summer I read several books on William Penn and visited his rebuilt estate, Pennsbury Manor. It made for a facinating summer. So, I guess I will be paying a visit to the smallest state with the longest name in 2014!

I do seem to recall that Rhode Island, like Pennsylvania, did not execute a single person for witchcraft. If only the other colonies could have made that claim.
 
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Psalm 91

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RDKirk

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mandyangel

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I am gonna say this about your thoughts and share mine. What you don't understand and what liberals don't understand... is that Christians like myself vote on abortion. If a leader can't get the life issue right, then I cannot ever trust them on anything because it is so obvious and if you can't protect the MOST innocent of all, then you can't protect anything.
 
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XB3LI3V3RX

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Aren't you the one always in the American Politics section saying "liberals are better than conservatives"? And also calling everyone who doesn't believe the same as you "stupid"? I think someone needs to check the log in their own eye...

Just Engaged!
 
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Psalm 91

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Excuse me, but we have a right to our opinions too. We are defending the Word of God and what it says rather than what the "world" says. Everything you are defending is sin. Standing against the world's view is not sin. Standing up for the freedom to have a Nativity Scene in the town square actually, should be a desire of ALL people. The Word was written for everyone, not just the few who believe it. If people had listened to Jesus instead of rejecting Him, the whole world now would probably be a much better place. I see Jesus as a necessary person in my life every single day. If others choose not to or to just take Him off the shelf once a week, that is their misfortune. To defend the rejection of Jesus Christ just MIGHT be a sin...And as for "love", that is the New Age focus to try to pull people away from the rest of Scripture. Religious leaders have gone "politically correct" and are leading their congregations astray by focusing on the new age "love" to the exclusion of "Go and sin no more", "homosexuality is an abomination", "they traded the natural for the unnatural", "thou shalt not kill", etc., etc., etc. I am seeing more hatefulness from your posts than from those who are faithful to Scripture. What makes liberals such an angry people? Is it because you want it your way and it can never be your way in a free society?

A Christian has every right to be involved in politics. We vote too. The liberals are forcing their opinions on us and that clashes with the Word of God. We are to obey God's Word over man's laws. We must protect our rights or we will be a country with Christian persecution too.

No one cares if there is a Menorah in the public square. We want, however, reverence to the birth of Christ because that is what was intended in the first place. It is the Jews' choice not to believe, and the secular and unbelieving society's choice not to believe. But that is not how it was meant to be. Those who do not believe have made a dangerous choice for themselves and by defending them, society may be complicit in the loss of their souls. Society has taken their side only because they want Christians to be wrong. It is a sad world we live in today.
 
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Psalm 91

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ProudMomxmany

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