The Elements

[DaRev]

If I may ask...
Why do you insist on unleavened bread but not wine?
It seems that your reasoning for one doesn't match the other.

 

[Lupinus]

we know that it was unleavened bread and wine due to the fact they are a given.

It was a passover meal and wine was the drink not grape juice.

Does Jesus specifically say to use these? No, but they were the items used they are the items that should be used. In rare extremes it is ok to use something else, but if unleavened bread and wine are availible they should be used.

 

[Tofferer]

Should I tell my wife to stop taking communion then?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Should I tell my wife to stop taking communion then?

Absolutely not.

This is where legalism gets us in trouble. No one should say that taking communion with grape juice rather than wine is wrong. If a member has a problem with the alcohol, whether it's an allergy or they don't like the taste, then they should be offered the next best thing: grape juice. It is still "fruit of the vine" - it is just missing the alcohol. This doesn't cheapen the Lord's Supper by any means. Nor does using leavened bread as opposed to unleavened bread cheapen the Lord's Supper.

The power that is at work in communion doesn't come from the bread and the wine - it comes from the words being spoken.

 

[DaRev]

It has nothing to do with "legalism". We use unleavened bread and wine because that's what Christ used to institute the supper. If we then have the ability to substitute the elements, then what's to stop some church from using pretzels and beer for communion? Why should we use something other than what Christ used?

Remember, we are talking about the blood of Christ. I know of no single case where someone had become an alcoholic by receiving the blood of Christ at communion.

There are other options if someone is absolutely opposed to receiving wine. One would be intincture, where they touch the host to the wine in the chalice. The other is to abstain from receiving the blood of Christ. No one is going to hell if they only receive communion in one kind.

We need to keep in mind that it's not about us and what we want, it's about Christ and what He gives.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

It's legalism when people start saying that it is wrong to receive grape juice or leavened bread instead of wine and unleavened bread.

I once attended a youth rally where they used grape juice instead of wine. Buying wine for 1500 people was not cost effective and would've drained the budget of the youth rally. That communion was no different than the communion I took last week with my husband.

 

[BigNorsk]

I have a question, is intincture drinking? The bible says to drink of the cup, I don't see dip and chew, but maybe my translation skills are weak.

And there were ways to preserve grape juice without fermentation. The most common would be in evaporating the juice through boiling to produce defrutum or sapa. The osmotic pressure prevents fermentation the same way the sugar in honey or jelly prevents fermentation. It was commonly mixed with wine to give the wine sweetness and used in cooking too as a sweatener. Before sugar was commonly available it was quite common and important for baking, but like I said also drank though usually in a mixture. If someone says the ancients had no way to preserve grape juice he hasn't done his homework.

Marv

 

[DaRev]

It's legalism when people start saying that it is wrong to receive grape juice or leavened bread instead of wine and unleavened bread.

I once attended a youth rally where they used grape juice instead of wine. Buying wine for 1500 people was not cost effective and would've drained the budget of the youth rally. That communion was no different than the communion I took last week with my husband.

It's not legalism. It's keeping the Sacrament as instituted by Christ. It's not about us, it's about Him.

 

[RadMan]

I think clearing the air about the essence of leaglism would help here. To me, legalists believe salvation comes by obedience to keeping commandments and by following certain rules or rituals of practice. Not those who believe every word of scripture and apply them in such a way that can be supported by scripture. The legalists are those who take certain passages of scripture to imply the Bible says something that really cannot be supported in its full light. Those who try to conform to the letter of the Law without having the Holy Spirit so that they are unable to apply the scriptures with any wisdom or understanding. Making it an obsession about every Law that is expressed in the Bible. Totally avoiding the grace and mercy of God. We sin daily and can't keep the Law in it's entirety so we are forgiven daily. Legalist often twist the truth on purpose to deceive. I don't see any legalism in DaRev's comment

That's my take.

 

[synger]

We can thank Dr. Welch for the pasteurization of grape juice, and the subsequent marketing of such to churches under the name "Dr. Welch's Unfermented Wine." He was a Methodist, and a prohibitionist.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

It's not legalism. It's keeping the Sacrament as instituted by Christ. It's not about us, it's about Him.

But saying "fruit of the vine" can only be translated as wine is incorrect. Just because wine was the only way they had to preserve grapes doesn't necessarily mean that they were drinking wine. You can't possibly tell me that a communion with grape juice is any less than a communion with wine.

No one is advocating using beer and pretzels - that's a ridiculous argument. What I am saying is that using grape juice and/or leavened bread doesn't change the communion rite.

To say that those people who can't have alcohol for whatever reason should just refrain from communion is not fair. Communion was instituted for everyone, not just those who can tolerate alcohol.

Have you ever been an alcoholic Rev? My family has a good number of them. My grandpa was so bad that even smelling alcohol made him want a drink. He got a little better, but after talking it over with his pastor, they decided he would get grape juice for his communion rather than wine. He has done this ever since - he just has to call the pastor ahead of time so he knows to have the juice ready. And Synger, I think it's great that you mentioned the unfermented wine, because I'm pretty sure that's what his church has been using for the last couple of years now.

My point in all of this is that I don't think it's right to say that using grape juice or leavened bread is WRONG. To me, that's legalism. My husband would not deny someone communion because they asked for grape juice. They might have to wait and receive private communion (we don't keep grape juice stored except for Capri Sun for the kids), but they would still get it.

 

[DaRev]

We can thank Dr. Welch for the pasteurization of grape juice, and the subsequent marketing of such to churches under the name "Dr. Welch's Unfermented Wine." He was a Methodist, and a prohibitionist.

Pastor Welch was also the inventor of the individual shot glasses that our congregations have been plagued with ever since.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Pastor Welch was also the inventor of the individual shot glasses that our congregations have been plagued with ever since.

I miss common cup. My home church offered both, but hubby's church has done individual cup for as long as they can remember. Hubby isn't thrilled with common cup because he's afraid he's going to chip teeth. He only has 2-D vision, and he actually spilled a lot during his vicar year.

 

[DaRev]

But saying "fruit of the vine" can only be translated as wine is incorrect. Just because wine was the only way they had to preserve grapes doesn't necessarily mean that they were drinking wine. You can't possibly tell me that a communion with grape juice is any less than a communion with wine.

How do you know this for sure? I'm not certain of it. All I know is that Jesus used unleavened bread and wine ("oinon" in Greek) to institute His supper. I am not convinced that using anything else makes the Sacrament.

To say that those people who can't have alcohol for whatever reason should just refrain from communion is not fair. Communion was instituted for everyone, not just those who can tolerate alcohol.

I never said they should refrain from taking communion. If they cannot tolerate the alcohol, then only receive the host, or receive the blood of Christ by intincture. That's how it was done all those hundreds of years before Pastor Welch invented pasteurized grape juice.

Now, that being said, I do have to admit that there is one person here that receives grape juice at communion because of an alergy. It was a practice initiated by my predecessor. There have been times when the altar guild had substituted apple juice, thinking that it didn't matter. If they think the elements don't matter, then just what is their view of the Sacrament? If it had been up to me, I would not offer the juice, but instruct the recipient concerning our use of wine and the alternatives that are available. Again, it's not about us and what we want, it's about Christ and what He has given.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I think I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.

We don't know for sure that it was wine they drank that night. Yes, we can reasonably assume it was given the times. But it could've been grape juice too.

If we are going to be literal and say that it was indeed wine and that we should be taking wine, then we can hardly tell someone to take only the body, can we? Jesus used both, so we should use both.

I have seen the dipping method, and I know a couple of women with alcohol allergies who can take communion in this fashion without having a reaction.

I realize that communion is not necessary for salvation, but I know how I feel just missing a single communion service. I can't begin to imagine how it might feel to have to abstain completely from it

At any rate...didn't mean to make such a big deal out of it.

 

[DaRev]

We don't know for sure that it was wine they drank that night. Yes, we can reasonably assume it was given the times. But it could've been grape juice too.

We do know it was wine. "Oinon" means wine.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

We do know it was wine. "Oinon" means wine.

I'm quite certain they were drinking wine. But I don't think that means that grape juice wouldn't suffice as well. Grape juice is merely wine without the alcohol.

 

[DaSeminarian]

I think I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.

We don't know for sure that it was wine they drank that night. Yes, we can reasonably assume it was given the times. But it could've been grape juice too.

Actually, we do know for sure that it was wine. As DaRev stated the greek word for wine was Oinon. The other evidence is that Jerusalem is in a desert climate and there was no refrigeration to stop the fermentation of the fruit. Henceforth it is wine in all it's glory.

Grape Juice as we know it today was developed in the late 19th century by Welch who discovered that refrigeration slows down and stops the fermentation. I believe he was Methodist. This also came along at the same time as many of the "revivalist" denominations began the Tolerance leagues and alcohol of any kind was prohibited by those who attended church.

If we are going to be literal and say that it was indeed wine and that we should be taking wine, then we can hardly tell someone to take only the body, can we? Jesus used both, so we should use both.

I have seen the dipping method, and I know a couple of women with alcohol allergies who can take communion in this fashion without having a reaction.

I realize that communion is not necessary for salvation, but I know how I feel just missing a single communion service. I can't begin to imagine how it might feel to have to abstain completely from it

At any rate...didn't mean to make such a big deal out of it.

You use the method known as Tincture. This method is used in Methodist churches and maybe a few others that share similar doctrines to the Methodists.

I have my educated opinion about it but at this time i will keep it to myself.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Oh we don't use it, Scott. I've just seen it used for people who couldn't tolerate the alcohol.

Not sure how I would feel about it being used as a regular method. When I was dating a Catholic, that's how they did their communion at one of the churches we attended. Course, at the other one only the priest got the wine!!

Hubby was saying earlier that the translation for oinon was "Fruit of the vine", which is commonly known as wine. But I do wonder, how different might their wine have been from ours? Not that it matters, of course. Just some rambling thoughts.

My only thing here is that I don't think we can say communion with grape juice is any less than communion with wine. To me it's like saying that a non-immersion baptism is wrong because Jesus was immersed (was he actually? that seems to be the argument used by most people). Jesus went into a river to be baptized - shouldn't we all go "down to the river" then? Do you see the point I'm making? I'm trying not to muddy it up, but I am on cold medicine so who knows?

 

[DaSeminarian]

Oh we don't use it, Scott. I've just seen it used for people who couldn't tolerate the alcohol.

Not sure how I would feel about it being used as a regular method. When I was dating a Catholic, that's how they did their communion at one of the churches we attended. Course, at the other one only the priest got the wine!!

Hubby was saying earlier that the translation for oinon was "Fruit of the vine", which is commonly known as wine. But I do wonder, how different might their wine have been from ours? Not that it matters, of course. Just some rambling thoughts.

My only thing here is that I don't think we can say communion with grape juice is any less than communion with wine. To me it's like saying that a non-immersion baptism is wrong because Jesus was immersed (was he actually? that seems to be the argument used by most people). Jesus went into a river to be baptized - shouldn't we all go "down to the river" then? Do you see the point I'm making? I'm trying not to muddy it up, but I am on cold medicine so who knows?

Cold medicine can have you thinking some pretty strange things. I looked up the history of Grape Juice and I have to admit that I was wrong. Grape juice is made by pasteurizing the grapes and killing the yeast in the juice which causes fermentation. Had nothing to do with refrigeration. Welch developed it in 1869 and his son started the Grape Juice company 24 years later.