The Elements

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

After discussing this issue with another Lutheran last night, I am now posting the topic in hopes to hear what other people think on this topic:
In the Lord's Supper it seems apparent that Jesus used Unleavened Bread and Wine
Does the use of either Leavened Bread instead of unleavened or Grapejuice instead of wine no longer make it the elements and therefore no longer the sacrament (i.e. can one use grapejuice or leavened bread and it still remain a sacrament)?
Please do not offer preferences, for I'm sure there are people who would prefer unleavened and wine but are not "against" the use of grapejuice or leavened. Because this question regards the validity of the event. Also, please give your reasoning for whichever side you take. Thanks and peace.

 

[seajoy]

After discussing this issue with another Lutheran last night, I am now posting the topic in hopes to hear what other people think on this topic:
In the Lord's Supper it seems apparent that Jesus used Unleavened Bread and Wine
Does the use of either Leavened Bread instead of unleavened or Grapejuice instead of wine no longer make it the elements and therefore no longer the sacrament (i.e. can one use grapejuice or leavened bread and it still remain a sacrament)?
Please do not offer preferences, for I'm sure there are people who would prefer unleavened and wine but are not "against" the use of grapejuice or leavened. Because this question regards the validity of the event. Also, please give your reasoning for whichever side you take. Thanks and peace.

There was a reason Christ used unleavened bread and wine for communion. It seems that if it was ok to use something else, as long as the Words of Institution were said, He would have said so. We should do the same as He did, just as we use water for baptism, and not something else.

Sacraments were instituted by Christ, I'm sure we wouldn't want to change anything about them.

seajoy

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

There was a reason Christ used unleavened bread and wine for communion. It seems that if it was ok to use something else, as long as the Words of Institution were said, He would have said so. We should do the same as He did, just as we use water for baptism, and not something else.

Sacraments were instituted by Christ, I'm sure we wouldn't want to change anything about them.

seajoy

Thanks for the feedback, I hope more people reply to this. Peace.

 

[Jim47]

I agree with Seajoy. To make changes in the sacrament is the same as to change what is written in the bible. We are to abide what God has done without changes on our part.

 

[Gospellightofmine]

Does the use of either Leavened Bread instead of unleavened or Grapejuice instead of wine no longer make it the elements and therefore no longer the sacrament

No

(i.e. can one use grapejuice or leavened bread and it still remain a sacrament)?

Yes
(We can use any form of "bread" and "fruit of the vine")

Please do not offer preferences

OK

please give your reasoning for whichever side you take

The vocabulary used was "bread" and "fruit of the vine". No direct command was given.
Jesus most likely used unleavened bread originally and for that reason, we use it. I can't imagine our Pastor breaking a piece off of a loaf... What a mess. The wafer must be the most convenient way to distribute.
If a Pastor was visiting a member who was dying and forgot his communion "kit" (?) I'm sure he would use whatever is available - or if an alcoholic was going to be distracted with the taste of the wine, I'm sure that Pastor would use juice.


*Side Note - Good question Peace to you too

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

No


Yes
(We can use any form of "bread" and "fruit of the vine")


OK


The vocabulary used was "bread" and "fruit of the vine". No direct command was given.
Jesus most likely used unleavened bread originally and for that reason, we use it. I can't imagine our Pastor breaking a piece off of a loaf... What a mess. The wafer must be the most convenient way to distribute.
If a Pastor was visiting a member who was dying and forgot his communion "kit" (?) I'm sure he would use whatever is available - or if an alcoholic was going to be distracted with the taste of the wine, I'm sure that Pastor would use juice.


*Side Note - Good question Peace to you too

Thank you for offering the other side of the coin from the others who posted. Again, I hope more people feel the desire to discuss this issue. Peace.

 

[seajoy]

Thank you for offering the other side of the coin from the others who posted. Again, I hope more people feel the desire to discuss this issue. Peace.

I may be wrong on this, but there isn't very often another side of the coin in this part of the forum. The other side of the coin is in the more liberal forum.

 

[dinkime]

Jesus did not use the words unleavened bread and wine, just brad & fruit of the vine...we used unleavened bread/wafers for convenience & it is more traditional (likely what Jesus actually used)...we use wine for the same traditional reason....

i do not think i had communion in my church (or one within fellowship) that was leavened bread and grape juice i would mind.........

i also think offering grape juice as an alternative -- it is still a drink made with the fruit of the vine -- if juice cannot be used, many alcoholics would never take communion, which is very sad...


i am very conservative, and i know many WELS and LCMS churchs offer the grape juice as an alternative...so i will not take this opinion to the more liberal forum

 

[seajoy]

I did say "I may be wrong."

I do understand the difficulties for recovering alcoholics. I'm not even sure what my church does in that instance.

I have heard of an LCMS pastor using tincture (sp?)or dipping, of the wafer into the wine, so the person would not get much of a taste of the wine. I'm not sure how that would work though.

I need to ask my Pastor what he does in these cases.

seajoy

 

[filosofer]

From Luther's SC:
What is the benefit of such eating and drinking?

That is shown us in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins; namely, that in the Sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us through these words. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation.

How can bodily eating and drinking do such great things?

It is not the eating and drinking, indeed, that does them, but the words which stand here, namely: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins. Which words are, beside the bodily eating and drinking, as the chief thing in the Sacrament; and he that believes these words has what they say and express, namely, the forgiveness of sins.

Who, then, receives such Sacrament worthily?

Fasting and bodily preparation is, indeed, a fine outward training; but he is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins.

But he that does not believe these words, or doubts, is unworthy and unfit; for the words For you require altogether believing hearts.

Note that the critical thing is Christ's body and blood, and the Word which is there. Faith attaches to the promises of the Word, not the form of the physical substance (poor play on theological terms, but couldn't help it).

In Christ's love,
filo

 

[synger]

Intinction is just one way of serving communion. When we went to the Ablaze weekend in Richmond, VA, they used intinction when serving. For ease of service, I think.

Just like you can take individual cup or common cup, or you can have the Pastor put the wafer on your tongue or you can take it in your hand, you can also take your wafer and dip it into the wine. Just another way of serving communion.

It's rather like the different ways one can be baptized. There's immersion, sprinkling, or pouring. All are efficacious. Our Pastor could do any of the three. In our church, however, pouring is done 99 percent of the time. If someone specifically asked for immersion, he'd probably do that instead.

 

[DaRev]

After discussing this issue with another Lutheran last night, I am now posting the topic in hopes to hear what other people think on this topic:

To offer a pastoral response...

In the Lord's Supper it seems apparent that Jesus used Unleavened Bread and Wine
Does the use of either Leavened Bread instead of unleavened or Grapejuice instead of wine no longer make it the elements and therefore no longer the sacrament (i.e. can one use grapejuice or leavened bread and it still remain a sacrament)?

We know for a fact that our Lord used unleavened bread and grape wine for the institution of the Lord's Supper. Remember, it is the Lord's Supper, not ours. In keeping with the command of our Lord, unleavened bread and regular grape wine should be used. Remember, the Church exists where the Gospel is preached in its purity and the Sacraments are administered rightly according to Christ's command. While the text does not specifically say "unleavened" in the verba, the Scriptures do indeed tell us it was unleavened bread. Also, the term "fruit of the vine" can only refer to wine since there was no way to preserve grape juice in the 1st century. These specifics need not be mentioned specifically. They are a given.

Now, there may be instances of pastoral discretion where non-alcoholic wine/grape juice or even bread made from some grain other than wheat might be used, such as people who have allergies to glutan or alcohol (I have a member who is extremely allergic to alcohol), but these are not the norm. To simply say that any kind of bread or juice can be used is not in keeping with the Lord's command.

Please do not offer preferences, for I'm sure there are people who would prefer unleavened and wine but are not "against" the use of grapejuice or leavened. Because this question regards the validity of the event. Also, please give your reasoning for whichever side you take. Thanks and peace.

The validity of the Sacrament is in keeping with the Lord's command and belief in His words.

 

[BelindaP]

Unleavened bread was used by Jesus because the last supper happened during the Passover season. Theological arguments could be made that unleavened bread should be used precisely for that reason--Jesus was the ultimate Passover lamb. One could argue the other way, too. Unleavened bread was ordained for the festival because the Israelites had to flee Egypt on short notice. Whether this aspect of the Passover celebration would carry forward into Communion in questionable.

The wine that Jesus used would have been much less fermented than what we use today, as the fermentation technology to make wine is much better now than it was then. In biblical times, the fruit of grapes was often placed into a wineskin and would have fermented in that. Depending on how fresh the wine was, it may have been closer to grape juice than wine. Given the season, however, it probably was more fermented rather than less. If one wished to be absolutely correct, one would use kosher wine anyway, as some churches do.

If I remember correctly, Nazarites were forbidden from drinking any fruit of the vine, fermented or not. I believe that to be God's standard. Thus, it seems clear to me that grape juice would suffice.

As the previous poster stated, it is how Communion is offered and taken that is most important.

 

[walloffire]

Well I suppose it was called (in the old testament) the "feast of UNLEAVENED BREAD" for a reason. God seemed pretty strict back then that unleavened bread be used.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I agree with BelindaP (#13),

In our Congregation we do use Kosher wine.

Mark

 

[DaRev]

When I was on vicarage, the congregation there used "kosher" wine. I remember one of the acolytes asking me what that meant. I said "Absolutely nothing as far as we are concerned." I went on to explain that it meant that it was blessed by a Jewish rabbi, but as far as Christianity, which is the true faith, is concerned, it means nothing.

 

[synger]

You mean it doesn't mean they cover the grapes with lots of coarse salt to get all the juice out?

(referencing "kosher meat" in which it is heavily salted to draw out all the blood.. hence "kosher salt" in the supermarket)

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I like the Kosher wine that we use at our church so much that I buy it for our house for weekly consumption with desserts. Only I buy blackberry rather than the grape that we use for communion.

 

[DaRev]

You mean it doesn't mean they cover the grapes with lots of coarse salt to get all the juice out?

(referencing "kosher meat" in which it is heavily salted to draw out all the blood.. hence "kosher salt" in the supermarket)

Salted wine?

It does also have to do with how it's made, but I don't really know the process. But I don't think it involves kosher salt.

 

[Tofferer]

Our pastor offers grape juice as an alternative for those who can not for either health or tolerance reasons drink wine. Hope can not stand the taste of alcohol, so she always opts for the grape juice. If wine was the only thing available, I don't think she'd ever take communion. To me, it doesn't matter as much as to whether or not it was derived from grapes. That is all that matters to me with regards to the wine. As for the bread, I honestly believe that it should be unleavened, whether from a loaf or a wafer. Again, this is because it was the feast of unleavened at which time Christ Jesus established the Lord's Supper.