You keep confusing one having ears, with one who has been given heavenly ears with which to hear the voice of Christ.
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
the elect/chosen
- Thread starter Hedgehog
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Romans 9;
For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, In Isaac your seed shall be called.[b] 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
That is plain enough.
Why do you dispute Paul when he says the natural descendants of Abraham, ie-Jews, are not the children of God?
For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, In Isaac your seed shall be called.[b] 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
That is plain enough.
Why do you dispute Paul when he says the natural descendants of Abraham, ie-Jews, are not the children of God?
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AWC,
I said,"If this passage refers to "the dead who have been regenerated" then they would no longer be dead:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"(Jn.5:25).
You still have not explained how Satan can blind the minds of those who are already blind to the gospel at birth.
You still have not explained how those who are already "alive" can "pass from death unto life" upon believing the gospel.
You still have not explained why anyone should believe anything that you say since it is obvious that you place your ideas over what the Scriptures actually say.
And here is all that you can say:
But you cannot explain how a person who is "alive" can "pass from death unto life" when they believe the gospel.
Your ideas as being exposed to be nothing but "fables".
In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://gracebeacon.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html
I said,"If this passage refers to "the dead who have been regenerated" then they would no longer be dead:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"(Jn.5:25).
You still have not explained how Satan can blind the minds of those who are already blind to the gospel at birth.
You still have not explained how those who are already "alive" can "pass from death unto life" upon believing the gospel.
You still have not explained why anyone should believe anything that you say since it is obvious that you place your ideas over what the Scriptures actually say.
And here is all that you can say:
But you say that when one is given "heavenly ears" that at the same time they are made alive.
But you cannot explain how a person who is "alive" can "pass from death unto life" when they believe the gospel.
Your ideas as being exposed to be nothing but "fables".
In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://gracebeacon.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html
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But Jesus was not talking about everybody with ears.
Mat 13:13;
This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Mat 13:13;
This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
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Mat 13:14;
Indeed, in their case of the reprobate the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.
Indeed, in their case of the reprobate the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.
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Yep, you boys have yet to learn what it means to "have ears to hear".
Mat 13:16;
But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.
Blessed are the ones who see, hear and understand, as they are taught of God. Jesus used parables are to impart more knowledge, to the ones knowledge has been given. In comparison to the ones who have not knowledge and never understand, see, or hear in keeping with the prophecy of Isaiah.
Mat 13:16;
But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.
Blessed are the ones who see, hear and understand, as they are taught of God. Jesus used parables are to impart more knowledge, to the ones knowledge has been given. In comparison to the ones who have not knowledge and never understand, see, or hear in keeping with the prophecy of Isaiah.
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
The reason that they did not hear was because they were resisting the Holy Spirit that came with His Words:
"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye"(Acts7:51).
The Lord Jesus said that His Words are Spirit and they are life:
"It is the Spirit that quickeneth...the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life"(Jn.6:63).
You say that the Spirit gives the elect "life" before he even believes the gospel but the Lord Jesus says that it is His Words which are life.You expect us to believe that a man can be "alive" before believing the gospel but at the same time "pass from death unto life" upon believing it.
You have yet to expain how someone who is already "alive" can "pass from death unto life".
You have yet to explain how Satan can blind the minds of some to the gospel since you say that they are blind to the gospel from birth.How is it possible for Satan to blind those who are already blind?
Still waiting....
In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://gracebeacon.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html
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They resist the Holy Spirit because they are depraved and are born sons of wrath just as you and I were born.
There is none who seeks after God. NO not one.
The only alternative is to resist and rebell, it's natural to the natural man.
There is none who seeks after God. NO not one.
The only alternative is to resist and rebell, it's natural to the natural man.
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Then how can some men believe the gospel that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit?Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
And please do not say that some men are made "alive" so that they can believe the gospel until you explain how someone who is already "alive" can "pass from death unto life" when they believe the gospel.
Those words are in regard to the time before the Cross:
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me"(Jn.12:32).
Here is what applies to today:
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him"(Heb.11:6).
You have not been able to dispute the fact that it is by the "hearing of faith" that the sinner can understand the things of God:
"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God...Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God"(1Cor.2:10,12).
Paul says that we can understand the things of God because we have received the Spirit of God.And he tells us exactly how we receive the Spirit:
"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?(Gal.3:2).
You say that the Spirit quickens the sinner before he even believes the gospel.But anyone with the slightest bit of spiritual discernment can see that your idea is directly contradicted by Paul.
In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://gracebeacon.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html
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Mat 13:11
And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
Joh 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he has sent.
The knowledge secrets of the kingdom were given to whom, the apostles. Who gave them the knowledge? God the Father gave them the knowledge.
Flesh and blood has not reveled this but the Father which is in heaven.
And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
Joh 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he has sent.
The knowledge secrets of the kingdom were given to whom, the apostles. Who gave them the knowledge? God the Father gave them the knowledge.
Flesh and blood has not reveled this but the Father which is in heaven.
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2Th 2:13;
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth
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Those whom God hath chosen hear the call of faith, having been given ears to hear by the Holy Spirit upon regeneration.
If not, then they are still in their "natural state", as per 1 Corinthians 2, and when hearing, don't hear with understanding but think it foolishness.
If not, then they are still in their "natural state", as per 1 Corinthians 2, and when hearing, don't hear with understanding but think it foolishness.
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
Hey, I thought this was a verse against calvinistic doctrine.
What is "from the beginning" here? See 1 Thess 1:5.
What is "sanctification by the Spirit"? See 1 Thess 1:5,6.
What is "belief of the truth"? See 1 Thess 1:6.
That's why Paul could say: "we know you're of the elect" 1 Thess 1:4, because they had accepted the word with joy.
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God does predestine things. That is clear. But where we disagree is whether or not the eternal destiny of His creation is predestined. I want you to listen to what I'm about to say, if YOU WILL. When a man impregnates a woman, his seed, which is a part of him, is released and enters a womans womb, and evolves after God formed that seed into a baby in the mothers womb, and becomes mans child. Well, in the very same way when God creates a man or woman, he takes that seed and forms it into a person, and breathes life into it and it becomes HIS CREATION. His breath is part of HIM in the same way the seed of man is part of him. So every created being is HIS CREATION. And humans are especially unique in God's eyes because we are out of all his created things the only beings that can relate and have communion with God. We are the only ones that are created in the image and likeness of GOD. So, we are a part of Him. This is why there is a battle going on for every soul. No matter whether one is bill gates, or a homeless guy on the streets. God shows personal favortism to no one. Period. What the enemy what's to do is get part of God (souls) seperated from Him forever. The enemy isn't more powerful than God by no means. It's just that when God intervenes in a lost souls life, that soul has then has the ability to yield to the initiation of God and be empowered to come to repentance and believe the word that was preached, or resist and harden n his own heart. The unbeliever is to co-operate with the Holy Spirit. That's why man is not born again by human will (own ability), the new birth is not of himself (own ability), and doesn't seek God (by His own ability). He can't cook up some faith on His own, but ahh, he can recieve the word of His salvation. Yes, in his fallen state, his mind is at enmity with God.
That's why God has provided a way where all can come to repentance. Thats why God is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet. 3:9
That's why the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. Titus 2:11. Thats why we read in
Ac 14:27 Now when they had come and gathered the church together, they reported all that God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles. Yes that's right, the door of faith, has been opened to the Gentiles. All Gentiles, because God commands all men everywhere to repent. Act 17. Then we read in Joh 10:7 - Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. Then we read in Joh 10:9 - I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. So it's clear that Jesus is the Way to be saved. He is the door, to come out of darkness and into the light and to pass from death to life. He is the door to be changed from a wolf to a sheep. Speaking of sheep, Scripture says that Jesus leaves the ninety nine for the one lost sheep. Mark 16:15 Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE. Now check out this next verse, for the truth shall triumph over the lies and deception. 16 He who believes... shall be saved. But he who does not believe will be condemned. So tell me, does this say God is completely responsible, or does man cooperate with the initiation of the Holy Spirit. Calvinists say that man is made alive then believes. So they are saved before they even hear the gospel right? Yet the bible says clearly that faith comes... by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Lets look at Eph. 1:13. In Him you also trusted, AFTER YOU HEARD the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also HAVING BELIEVED, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.
So it's clear the gospel comes first. Jesus said In John 6 My words are spirit, and they are life. The apostle Paul said in 1 Thess. 1:5-6 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance... 6 and you became followers of us and the Lord, HAVING RECIEVED THE WORD . So it's clear that the Word comes first. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. The word of God comes in power, and in the Holy Spirit. 2 Thess. 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, that they might be saved. 11 for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be be condemned WHO DID NOT RECIEVE THE TRUTH, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Can you say they didn't have a choice? those who perish, do so because they did not receive the love of the truth. They didn't recieve the love of Jesus. For if they would have recieved the love of Jesus, they would love Him in return. But they didn't.
2 Pet. 1:22 says Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth THROUGH THE SPIRIT... 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, THROUGH THE WORD OF GOD which lives and abides forever. So though when we were dead in our tresspasses, we are able to able THROUGH THE SPIRIT. Though we were sons of disobedience, Eph. 2:18 For through Him we both have access BY ONE SPIRIT to the Father. Its only by the Spirit that we can recieve the Word of God, and through that God gives the increase and bamm. As man repents and believes through the means to do so provided by the Holy Spirit, You have a miracle called new birth.
So its clear that man plays a part in His salvation. Yet, this His part is just Co-operate. His co-operation is not considered a work. It's not something that's done of his own ability. The word comes first, the Spirit initiates the drawing and makes it possible to repent, believe which is mans part in the co-operation, and man passes from death to life. He walks through the door by the drawing of the Holy Spirit, and comes out of darkness into light and is made a new creation, and then becomes a sheep. Forced love is indeed, rape. For the Calvinist, God indeed puts a sock on His hand and tells Himself I love you. For God to command all men every to repent and then not provide the means for which He can do so is unjust. That's like commanding a 3 month old baby to walk, and not supernatural providing a way where He can and then spanking the baby. God is not so Sovereign that He does something against His nature. There are things God cannot do. Plain and simple. One being, God cannot lie. God can't act any way that's conflicts with His nature. Ps.97:2 Righteousness and Justice are the foundation of His throne. And when the lost stand before Him, He will not judge unrighteously or unjustly. This is why Rev. 20 says that the dead were judged ACCORDING TO THERE WORKS.
The Calvinist must repent, and bow before the authority of Scripture, or else he is just as guilty as the prosperity teachers teaching false doctrine. Calvies would have a fit if they were called heretics, and false teachers, and it's true that when it comes to total depravity they focus so much on the Soveriegnty of God and His part, that they forget and overlook and "explain away" the Scriptures that shows man has a part to play in co-operating with the Holy Spirit which is very little compared to all the He does in the salvation of the sinner. Let's put the shoe on the other foot, things aren't always the same when you give them a second look.
That's why God has provided a way where all can come to repentance. Thats why God is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet. 3:9
That's why the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. Titus 2:11. Thats why we read in
Ac 14:27 Now when they had come and gathered the church together, they reported all that God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles. Yes that's right, the door of faith, has been opened to the Gentiles. All Gentiles, because God commands all men everywhere to repent. Act 17. Then we read in Joh 10:7 - Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. Then we read in Joh 10:9 - I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. So it's clear that Jesus is the Way to be saved. He is the door, to come out of darkness and into the light and to pass from death to life. He is the door to be changed from a wolf to a sheep. Speaking of sheep, Scripture says that Jesus leaves the ninety nine for the one lost sheep. Mark 16:15 Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE. Now check out this next verse, for the truth shall triumph over the lies and deception. 16 He who believes... shall be saved. But he who does not believe will be condemned. So tell me, does this say God is completely responsible, or does man cooperate with the initiation of the Holy Spirit. Calvinists say that man is made alive then believes. So they are saved before they even hear the gospel right? Yet the bible says clearly that faith comes... by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Lets look at Eph. 1:13. In Him you also trusted, AFTER YOU HEARD the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also HAVING BELIEVED, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.
So it's clear the gospel comes first. Jesus said In John 6 My words are spirit, and they are life. The apostle Paul said in 1 Thess. 1:5-6 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance... 6 and you became followers of us and the Lord, HAVING RECIEVED THE WORD . So it's clear that the Word comes first. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. The word of God comes in power, and in the Holy Spirit. 2 Thess. 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, that they might be saved. 11 for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be be condemned WHO DID NOT RECIEVE THE TRUTH, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Can you say they didn't have a choice? those who perish, do so because they did not receive the love of the truth. They didn't recieve the love of Jesus. For if they would have recieved the love of Jesus, they would love Him in return. But they didn't.
2 Pet. 1:22 says Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth THROUGH THE SPIRIT... 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, THROUGH THE WORD OF GOD which lives and abides forever. So though when we were dead in our tresspasses, we are able to able THROUGH THE SPIRIT. Though we were sons of disobedience, Eph. 2:18 For through Him we both have access BY ONE SPIRIT to the Father. Its only by the Spirit that we can recieve the Word of God, and through that God gives the increase and bamm. As man repents and believes through the means to do so provided by the Holy Spirit, You have a miracle called new birth.
So its clear that man plays a part in His salvation. Yet, this His part is just Co-operate. His co-operation is not considered a work. It's not something that's done of his own ability. The word comes first, the Spirit initiates the drawing and makes it possible to repent, believe which is mans part in the co-operation, and man passes from death to life. He walks through the door by the drawing of the Holy Spirit, and comes out of darkness into light and is made a new creation, and then becomes a sheep. Forced love is indeed, rape. For the Calvinist, God indeed puts a sock on His hand and tells Himself I love you. For God to command all men every to repent and then not provide the means for which He can do so is unjust. That's like commanding a 3 month old baby to walk, and not supernatural providing a way where He can and then spanking the baby. God is not so Sovereign that He does something against His nature. There are things God cannot do. Plain and simple. One being, God cannot lie. God can't act any way that's conflicts with His nature. Ps.97:2 Righteousness and Justice are the foundation of His throne. And when the lost stand before Him, He will not judge unrighteously or unjustly. This is why Rev. 20 says that the dead were judged ACCORDING TO THERE WORKS.
The Calvinist must repent, and bow before the authority of Scripture, or else he is just as guilty as the prosperity teachers teaching false doctrine. Calvies would have a fit if they were called heretics, and false teachers, and it's true that when it comes to total depravity they focus so much on the Soveriegnty of God and His part, that they forget and overlook and "explain away" the Scriptures that shows man has a part to play in co-operating with the Holy Spirit which is very little compared to all the He does in the salvation of the sinner. Let's put the shoe on the other foot, things aren't always the same when you give them a second look.
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