The Elder, The Elect Lady and Her Children

[1whirlwind]

The opening verses.....

11 John 1:1-2 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.

The "elect lady" is "the woman" who is Israel/the church and "her children" are the "man child(ren)" (who are the very elect/saints) in the following....

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
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Who is "the elder" that speaks to the elect? Bullinger wrote that it refers to the writer's age. I don't agree. It isn't just an elderly man writing the epistle....it is the Holy Spirit divinely inspiring the writer to use that term so I see it more as a title than description, especially when one considers other passages.
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The closing verses....

11 John 1:12-13 Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full. The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

John began the epistle writing as "the elder unto the elect lady" and ended with "the children of thy elect sister greet thee." He has written as both and they are one and the same. The elder(s) is/are the man child, the elders/priests which are of the woman/the church and as such are...her children. At the same time the children/man child are over her in that the Spirit speaks to them face to face.

In the first two verses we're told that truth "dwelleth in us" and is with us forever. That truth is Christ, the same that shall "come unto" us to "speak face to face." He told us.....

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
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He speaks to us and reveals understanding as we are able to bear it...as we mature. He "comes unto us," and abides in us...walks in us, dwells in us...speaks to us face to face. Paul tells us that face to face is as looking in a mirror....

11 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
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Those the Lord speaks to "face to face" are His prophets, those He indwells.

Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face.

Exodus 3:15-18 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt: And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey. And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.

Exodus 19:6-8 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Numbers 11:23-25 And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD'S hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether My word shall come to pass unto thee or not. And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle. And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

Isaiah 37:2 And he sent Eliakim, who was over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests covered with sackcloth, unto Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz.

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

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So, we have the "elect lady," her "children" and the "elders." We have the body of Christ! The elders are the "elders OF THE priests" that are covered in sackcloth. That appears to say there are many priests in sackcloth and they are "her children," who are the many two witnesses but among those witnesses there are the elders..."the elders of the priests." Perhaps the elders are the apostles of end times where the man child (her children) are the prophets. Our Father dwells in the apostles and prophets as His Spirit reveals understanding to them......

Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
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[NorrinRadd]

Is there some particular reason you're scurrying hither and yon through the NT to find various Scriptures to tie together, as if 2 John is otherwise impenetrably obscure? Why not take it as it appears to be -- a personal letter to a lady (as 3 John is a personal letter to a man), overseeing a family or perhaps a church?

 

[1whirlwind]

Is there some particular reason you're scurrying hither and yon through the NT to find various Scriptures to tie together, as if 2 John is otherwise impenetrably obscure? Why not take it as it appears to be -- a personal letter to a lady (as 3 John is a personal letter to a man), overseeing a family or perhaps a church?

There are levels to Scripture that we are led to penetrate. The Bible is a personal letter....from our Father to us....to all of us, not John to a lady or a man. The church is the lady the elder speaks to. The elders are the apostles to whom the Spirit reveals understanding of the written word.

 

[1whirlwind]

11 John 1:12-13 Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full. The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.


On another forum a poster commented that the "elect lady" the elder addresses is the wife of Christ while the "elect sister" is the bride of Christ. I agree. The elder (an apostle) to the wife/church is also a child (man child) of the bride.

Where I disagreed with the poster was in that he believed the elder represented our Father. That can't be as there are many elders. As the elect lady represents the wife/Israel...many folks, the elder also represents more than one.

• Exodus 24:1 And He said unto Moses, Come up unto the LORD, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off.
  
  Luke 10:1 After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before His face into every city and place, whither He himself would come.

There is that "face" again from the OP. These are those He indwells, speaks to face to face as He reveals Scripture. These are those He sends forth...leads, guides and directs.

• 10:2-3 Therefore said He unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that He would send forth labourers into His harvest. Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

Remember....many are called but few chosen. The called encompasses all of us...the Church...but the chosen few are the labourers His sends forth as lambs. We go forth in His image, in the image of The Lamb as lambs.

• 10:16-17 He that heareth you heareth Me; and he that despiseth you despiseth Me; and he that despiseth Me despiseth Him that sent Me. And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through Thy name.
  
  10:19-20 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
  
  10:23-24 And He turned Him unto His disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

 

[Anglian]

The earliest record we have of this letter comes c. 140 AD from St. Irenaeus, who had it as part of a single letter which included what we call the three Johannine epistles; none of the earliest Fathers mentions it. Papias described him as John the 'Elder' and as a 'disciple' to distinguish him from the Apostle of that name.

Much depends on how one reads the Greek of the opening words: eklete kyria. Modern Greek editions treat the words as common nouns rather than proper ones, which means that the reference is to a local Church and its members; the conclusion, with greetings from 'the children of your elect sister' supports this idea. The letter could have gained circulation from the fact that it was addressed to no particular Church If it was, as Irenaeus suggests, originally the middle letter in a trio, then it may have been designed to drive home the message of 1 John, although some have suggested that 1 John is the second letter, the result of the fact that the Elder was not able to make the visit as he intended and therefore wrote a longer letter; there are supporters of both lines of argument.

The omission of a name is unusual in the canonical epistles - only 2 & 3 John use a title with no name; the use of the title 'Elder', as opposed to the use of the word 'Elders' is unique to this epistle. It implies he writes from a position of authority. although this depends on the assumption that it and 'elders' mean the same thing; but since no one else is described as 'the elder' we have no real way of making a comparison.

We are told that all who love the truth love the children of the elect lady; if believers are begotten of God they should love one another as brothers and sisters, but the truth clearly, here, does not abide with those who are opposed to the Elder - and it is these whom he warns against at the end of the letter. 2 John 7, along with 1 John 2:19 suggests that these deceivers were once part of the Elder's Church but are now separated.

peace,

Anglain

 

[NorrinRadd]

...
The omission of a name is unusual in the canonical epistles - only 2 & 3 John use a title with no name; the use of the title 'Elder', as opposed to the use of the word 'Elders' is unique to this epistle. It implies he writes from a position of authority. although this depends on the assumption that it and 'elders' mean the same thing; but since no one else is described as 'the elder' we have no real way of making a comparison...

In 1 Pet. 5:1, Peter refers to himself as (an) elder. (Well, technically, a "fellow-elder," of similar status to the collective elders he was addressing.)

peace,

Anglain

You spelled your own name wrong.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In 1 Pet. 5:1, Peter refers to himself as (an) elder. (Well, technically, a "fellow-elder," of similar status to the collective elders he was addressing.)

You spelled your own name wrong.

Kinda nick-picky aren't ya?

How did the OP get 11 John or didn't you catch that

11 John 1:1-2 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.

The closing verses....

11 John 1:12-13 Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full. The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

 

[Anglian]

In 1 Pet. 5:1, Peter refers to himself as (an) elder. (Well, technically, a "fellow-elder," of similar status to the collective elders he was addressing.)

Interesting; it would seem 2 John is the only one where we have a single Elder.

You spelled your own name wrong.

Although strictly speaking, I spelled my own name wrongly


peace,

Anglian

 

[NorrinRadd]

Interesting; it would seem 2 John is the only one where we have a single Elder.

And as far as I've been able to determine so far, John and Peter are the only specific persons to whom the title is applied.

Although strictly speaking, I spelled my own name wrongly


peace,

Anglian

Adverb. Can't believe I did that. I'll break out the flagellum and get to work.

 

[Anglian]

And as far as I've been able to determine so far, John and Peter are the only specific persons to whom the title is applied.







Adverb. Can't believe I did that. I'll break out the flagellum and get to work.

LOL

It does raise interesting questions about the nature of the Church of the 'Elder'. Older scholarship sometimes suggested that it was the elder's Church which had broken away. More modern scholars suggest it was written to combat docetic tendencies within the Elder's Church which had led to a break away group forming.

peace,

Anglian