The education Department: a Question of Epistemology and Responsibility

[Stephen3141]

A Bill to Kill the Education Department Is Already Filed. Here's What It Says

The bill represents another attempt at a long-term Republican goal.

www.edweek.org

The article goes through a number of special initiatives of the Department of
Education, and suggests how Project 2025 and Trump would reroute funding for these
to other existing departments. I think that this is a SMOKE SCREEN, and does not deal
with the core questions that Christians should be concerned about, regarding
public-funded education in America.

THE CORE QUESTION...

The core question, in education, is
"What is knowledge, what is understanding?"

The follow-on question is ...
"Given that American kids (Christian and non-Christian) WILL get
'educated' IN SOME WAY, who is going to take responsibility for the
outcomes of that education???

I have no problem with (some) public funds gong toward high quality
private educational venues (such as home schooling, or religious schools),
IF the curriculum in those schools includes includes a proper view of OUR
SHARED REALITY, EPISTEMOLOGY, FORMAL LOGIC, and how the same
structure of formal logic underpins the hard sciences, theology, our fair
rule of law in America, the due process of that fair rule of law, and the
resulting justice. (Most Americans do not seem to have put together
this basic "golden chain" of reasoning.)
---------- -----------

Note that the same challenges are faced by public schools, and private
religious schools, and home schoolers. (Most Americans seem to not have
thought about THAT.) Younger Americans, across all groups, are basically
incompetent to discuss philosophical primitives, such as "what is truth".

The anti-intellectual religious groups in America are in no place to produce
their own intellectual curricula for K12 schooling. And, they seem more prone
to embrace conspiracy theories about their failure to produce competitive
job skills, and are more prone to embrace conspiracy theories about why
their own subcultures are economically failing to thrive in America.

Embracing conspiracy theories, is another way of NOT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY
for what we could have affected positively in America, but chose not to.
---------- ----------

With an incoming administration that (I assert) does not take technical professionalism
seriously, this apathy toward fact-checking in political speeches, will continue in an
apathy toward truth in general, in public and religious schooling.

And this will spell disaster, for American schooling.

 

[Laodicean60]

For my tax dollars, why American kids are poorly educated after so much money is given? Money won't help a culture problem. In the last part of the article, I don't think consolidation of dept. is a bad idea. Sort of like Comcast and MSNBC restructuring.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Money won't help a culture problem.

Well, there you have it. Money will not help diminish preferred ignorance. So how do we change the culture to value truth and the legitimate search for it? How do we nudge in the direction of self critical thinking?

 

[Laodicean60]

So how do we change the culture to value truth and the legitimate search for it?

First by telling the truth.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

First by telling the truth.

But we cannot agree on what the truth is.

 

[Laodicean60]

But we cannot agree on what the truth is.

Well, we now know the truth from the media is opinionated.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Well, we now know the truth from the media is opinionated.

It has been an awakening. I think even Walter Cronkite and Edward R Murrow gave theirs and we less conscious of it as such.

 

[Laodicean60]

It has been an awakening. I think even Walter Cronkite and Edward R Murrow gave theirs and we less conscious of it as such.

Probably, too young and dumb but with three networks it would be hard to get away with anything.

 

[jas3]

have no problem with (some) public funds gong toward high quality
private educational venues (such as home schooling, or religious schools),
IF the curriculum in those schools includes includes a proper view of OUR
SHARED REALITY, EPISTEMOLOGY, FORMAL LOGIC, and how the same
structure of formal logic underpins the hard sciences, theology, our fair
rule of law in America, the due process of that fair rule of law, and the
resulting justice.

The irony here is that it's the side defending the Department of Education that spits on the ideas of objective reality and formal logic.

Younger Americans, across all groups, are basically
incompetent to discuss philosophical primitives, such as "what is truth".

Indeed, and that situation has come about under the current Department of Education.

 

[Mark Quayle]

A Bill to Kill the Education Department Is Already Filed. Here's What It Says

The bill represents another attempt at a long-term Republican goal.

www.edweek.org

The article goes through a number of special initiatives of the Department of
Education, and suggests how Project 2025 and Trump would reroute funding for these
to other existing departments. I think that this is a SMOKE SCREEN, and does not deal
with the core questions that Christians should be concerned about, regarding
public-funded education in America.

THE CORE QUESTION...

The core question, in education, is
"What is knowledge, what is understanding?"

The follow-on question is ...
"Given that American kids (Christian and non-Christian) WILL get
'educated' IN SOME WAY, who is going to take responsibility for the
outcomes of that education???

I have no problem with (some) public funds gong toward high quality
private educational venues (such as home schooling, or religious schools),
IF the curriculum in those schools includes includes a proper view of OUR
SHARED REALITY, EPISTEMOLOGY, FORMAL LOGIC, and how the same
structure of formal logic underpins the hard sciences, theology, our fair
rule of law in America, the due process of that fair rule of law, and the
resulting justice. (Most Americans do not seem to have put together
this basic "golden chain" of reasoning.)
---------- -----------

Note that the same challenges are faced by public schools, and private
religious schools, and home schoolers. (Most Americans seem to not have
thought about THAT.) Younger Americans, across all groups, are basically
incompetent to discuss philosophical primitives, such as "what is truth".

The anti-intellectual religious groups in America are in no place to produce
their own intellectual curricula for K12 schooling. And, they seem more prone
to embrace conspiracy theories about their failure to produce competitive
job skills, and are more prone to embrace conspiracy theories about why
their own subcultures are economically failing to thrive in America.

Embracing conspiracy theories, is another way of NOT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY
for what we could have affected positively in America, but chose not to.
---------- ----------

With an incoming administration that (I assert) does not take technical professionalism
seriously, this apathy toward fact-checking in political speeches, will continue in an
apathy toward truth in general, in public and religious schooling.

And this will spell disaster, for American schooling.

Sorry, but your representations of the facts seriously lack serious fact-checking. Just saying.

That, plus they lack consideration of what has been happening for many years, now, in public (and so, in [supposedly] private) education.

No, I'm not going to waste my time writing a nice piece like yours, nor to defeat yours point-by-point. That it is biased already takes it out of the arena of pure epistemology.

 

[camillanorigera]

A Bill to Kill the Education Department Is Already Filed. Here's What It Says

The bill represents another attempt at a long-term Republican goal.

www.edweek.org

The article goes through a number of special initiatives of the Department of
Education, and suggests how Project 2025 and Trump would reroute funding for these
to other existing departments. I think that this is a SMOKE SCREEN, and does not deal
with the core questions that Christians should be concerned about, regarding
public-funded education in America.

THE CORE QUESTION...

The core question, in education, is
"What is knowledge, what is understanding?"

The follow-on question is ...
"Given that American kids (Christian and non-Christian) WILL get
'educated' IN SOME WAY, who is going to take responsibility for the
outcomes of that education???

I have no problem with (some) public funds gong toward high quality
private educational venues (such as home schooling, or religious schools),
IF the curriculum in those schools includes includes a proper view of OUR
SHARED REALITY, EPISTEMOLOGY, FORMAL LOGIC, and how the same
structure of formal logic underpins the hard sciences, theology, our fair
rule of law in America, the due process of that fair rule of law, and the
resulting justice. (Most Americans do not seem to have put together
this basic "golden chain" of reasoning.)
---------- -----------

Note that the same challenges are faced by public schools, and private
religious schools, and home schoolers. (Most Americans seem to not have
thought about THAT.) Younger Americans, across all groups, are basically
incompetent to discuss philosophical primitives, such as "what is truth".

The anti-intellectual religious groups in America are in no place to produce
their own intellectual curricula for K12 schooling. And, they seem more prone
to embrace conspiracy theories about their failure to produce competitive
job skills, and are more prone to embrace conspiracy theories about why
their own subcultures are economically failing to thrive in America.

Embracing conspiracy theories, is another way of NOT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY
for what we could have affected positively in America, but chose not to.
---------- ----------

With an incoming administration that (I assert) does not take technical professionalism
seriously, this apathy toward fact-checking in political speeches, will continue in an
apathy toward truth in general, in public and religious schooling.

And this will spell disaster, for American schooling. In the context of educational design, a structured approach is critical to addressing these challenges. As detailed in Task 4 for Designing Curriculum and Instruction 1, found here: https://edubirdie.com/docs/western-governors-university/d183-designing-curriculum-i/61079-task-4-for-designing-curriculum-and-instruction-1, integrating formal logic, epistemology, and shared reality into curricula will play a crucial role in fostering intellectual growth. Without such a framework, the future of both public and private education will continue to degrade, impacting the nation’s intellectual and moral fabric.

It’s concerning that many discussions about abolishing the Department of Education, like the one outlined in the article, seem to ignore the deeper issues raised here. The redistribution of funds under Project 2025 and other initiatives appears to be a logistical shift rather than addressing core educational questions. How we define knowledge and who takes responsibility for education outcomes are fundamental concerns. Without a focus on shared reality and critical thinking, any restructuring risks being superficial and harmful to America’s education system long-term. The apathy toward these deeper questions is troubling.

 

[Stephen3141]

Well, we now know the truth from the media is opinionated.

I would not call "truth from the media" as opinionated, unless you know
that it is not 100% truth.

This assumption of yours, that all reporting from the media is opinionated,
assumes that there cannot be objective reporting. I reject this blanket
assumption.

 

[Stephen3141]

The irony here is that it's the side defending the Department of Education that spits on the ideas of objective reality and formal logic.
Indeed, and that situation has come about under the current Department of Education.

I would rather focus on basic philosophical primitives, rather than
going through the unending rhetoric of fixing blame.

For Christians, in Christian K12 schools and congregations, I have
never seen teaching on the basic topics of our shared reality,
moral-ethical models that have been historically discussed, the
difference between individual opinion and a critically tested opinion
(bringing it out of the realm of merely a personal opinion, and establishing
it as a fact), and how Christians have a moral-ethical ought to recognize
truth (facts). This same method, is what identifies a conspiracy theory as
merely an "explanation" that cannot meet the rigorous standard of
examination, that a fact (or true model) must pass.

I am not interested in who is for the Department of Education, and who is
against it (my interest is not political), but rather, what dysfunctions in
current K12 education the Department of Education ought to be addressing.

 

[Stephen3141]

It’s concerning that many discussions about abolishing the Department of Education, like the one outlined in the article, seem to ignore the deeper issues raised here. The redistribution of funds under Project 2025 and other initiatives appears to be a logistical shift rather than addressing core educational questions. How we define knowledge and who takes responsibility for education outcomes are fundamental concerns. Without a focus on shared reality and critical thinking, any restructuring risks being superficial and harmful to America’s education system long-term. The apathy toward these deeper questions is troubling.

I agree.

I do not like the political rhetoric that is common, that uses incendiary
language, without grounding it in objective definitions (that can be objectively
tested).

I do not like political rhetoric that tries to paint one party as wholly right, and
the other as wholly wrong. There are hundreds of different topics, that need
to be individually examined.

But my concern is deeper. I see the inability of Americans to recognize that they
need to commit to a sound definition of truth, as endemic. For example...

1 Many Americans misunderstand "freedom of speech" as some sort of immunity
from prosecution, for whatever they may say. There is no guaranteed immunity
for what we speak, either under a fair rule of law, or (for Christians) at the final
judgment.

2 Many Christians have never put together the basic primitives, that the Bible
a presents a shared reality that we all live in
b holds us responsible for accurately representing that shared reality
c calls the misrepresentation of that reality as LYING.

3 Many Americans (I think), have never considered the ramifications of the
worldview that asserts that reality is whatever I perceive, or whatever I
project it to be. This worldview is incompatible with Christianity. And it
undercuts the biblical presentation that we each can perceive this shared
reality accurately enough, for God to hold us responsible for how we perceive
it. Also, if we do not live in a shared reality, cannot perceive it accurately enough,
have no method to objectively test our personal opinions to see if they are true,
then...

We cannot claim that we could ever arrive at a fair rule of law (for everyone).
We cannot claim that we could ever arrive at a definition of justice.

So many Americans who claim to want "justice", will not accept the
philosophcal primitives upon which a fair rule of law must rest.

4 The billionaires who own social media sites, DO NOT WANT TO BE HELD
RESPONSIBLE for doing fact-checking on entries on their platforms.
Worse, they want to let the users vote as to what is true (regardless, that
this methodology is a logical fallacy, ad populam).

5 The billionaires who own the social media sites, WANT to be able to
publish their conspiracy theories (or even outright lies), without being
held responsible for what they publish. They appeal endlessly to "freedom
of speech", but DENY that freedom of speech goes hand-in-hand with
responsibility for what we speak.

6 It REALLY concerns me, that a main group of supporters for the Tucker
Carlson conspiracy theories, claim to be Christians. Yet, they seem to be
ignorant of the basic moral command "You shall not lie."

I understand that there are some non-Christians who do not believe that
there is any such thing as truth. But, without truth, there is no science.
There is no accurate interpretation of Scripture. There are no facts. There
cannot be global values that can be argued to form a global moral-ethical
belief system. There can be no fair rule of law. There can be no objective
method to differentiate merely personal opinions from facts. There can be
no due process of law. There cannot be a fair rule of law. There can be no
justice.

What you are logically left with, is lynch mobs of people who do not know what
truth is, or justice, but are carrying out violence under the claim of being "patriots".
In reality, they are lawless lynch mobs, and not patriots, and not Christians.

America is deep into the results of NOT thinking carefully about Epistemology.
This is not solely a religious subject.
The is disastrous, for ALL Americans.

 

[Laodicean60]

I would not call "truth from the media" as opinionated, unless you know
that it is not 100% truth.

This assumption of yours, that all reporting from the media is opinionated,
assumes that there cannot be objective reporting. I reject this blanket
assumption.

Do you use fact checkers? Do you realize that most financial news is psychology manipulation? Do you think some information might be corporate-driven money? Did you believe the truth about Trump's Russian collusion? Are some news politically driven?

"This assumption of yours, that all reporting" I do believe this is your assumption. How can I get to my truth without reading what both sides say, without bias as much as I can?

Only God's word is true, and the rest is opinionated. This is why I am skeptical about what people tell me.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

But we cannot agree on what the truth is.

Yes, we can and so can ABC and George Stephanopoulos after being found guilty of defamation against Trump and
having to pay him $16 million.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It’s concerning that many discussions about abolishing the Department of Education, like the one outlined in the article, seem to ignore the deeper issues raised here. The redistribution of funds under Project 2025 and other initiatives appears to be a logistical shift rather than addressing core educational questions. How we define knowledge and who takes responsibility for education outcomes are fundamental concerns. Without a focus on shared reality and critical thinking, any restructuring risks being superficial and harmful to America’s education system long-term. The apathy toward these deeper questions is troubling.

I thought Project 2025 opposed the redistribution of finds?

 

[FireDragon76]

I would rather focus on basic philosophical primitives, rather than
going through the unending rhetoric of fixing blame.

For Christians, in Christian K12 schools and congregations, I have
never seen teaching on the basic topics of our shared reality,
moral-ethical models that have been historically discussed, the
difference between individual opinion and a critically tested opinion
(bringing it out of the realm of merely a personal opinion, and establishing
it as a fact), and how Christians have a moral-ethical ought to recognize
truth (facts). This same method, is what identifies a conspiracy theory as
merely an "explanation" that cannot meet the rigorous standard of
examination, that a fact (or true model) must pass.

Unitarians used to be known for that sort of thing (critical thought, pursuit of truth), as far as religious groups in the US (though recently there has been infighting over the covenants that define Unitarian Universralism within the denomination which might potentially challenge this). To a lesser extent, that was true of Congregationalists and Episcopalians. But most Christianity in the US is pietistic and often explicitly anti-intellelctual.

 

[Stephen3141]

Unitarians used to be known for that sort of thing (critical thought, pursuit of truth), as far as religious groups in the US (though recently there has been infighting over the covenants that define Unitarian Universralism within the denomination which might potentially challenge this). To a lesser extent, that was true of Congregationalists and Episcopalians. But most Christianity in the US is pietistic and often explicitly anti-intellelctual.

Thanks for your comment.

A lot of younger Christians are probably not familiar with the Protestant
denominations at the beginning of the 20th century. The "mainline" denominations
used to have a pretty high standard of scholarship, and could interact with the
"tech" areas of study at the time. However, the strong emergence of the anti-
Darwinian denominations, brought with it a backlash of anti-intellectualism.
And in this backlash, the mainline denominations (often high church) got the
reputation of being "liberal", and soft on core Christian theology. (And, some
in the mainline denominations did flop over into a tech-science form of
cultural Christianity).

All this is history, and may be foreign, to younger Protestants. But ...
THINGS HAVE GOTTEN VERY WEIRD, WITH THE ELECTRONIC SCREEN
GENERATIONS OF CHRISTIANS. I say this, because ALL the younger
American generations (Christians and non-Christians alike) have tended to
ditch logic, and embrace (I assert) more emotion-based and culture-based
"explanations": aka, types of conspiracy theories, whether or not they are
flaming fantasy tales repeated to try to blame some political group, or whether
they are just a slipping of a careful Epistemology and the replacement of it with
the "I think reality is ..." radical individualism.

Whether or not the readers (here) are Christians, America has become a HUGE Epistemology
DESERT!!!

When politicians are angry, and don't want ANY fact-checking on their speeches,
or when they assert that their rhetoric was only meant "to make a point", and
should not be taken as a statement of truth, or when kids are glued to a screen
and demand to be entertained all day long (choosing THIS as their reality, as
apposed to the REAL WORLD, Christians NEED TO BE CONCERNED THAT (OFTEN)
THE PERCEIVED REALITY OF THE YOUNGER GENERATIONS, IS NOT COMPATIBLE
WITH THE SHARED REALITY THAT SCRIPTURE PRESENTS.

So, this question of education, and what secular curricula should be taught, and
what religious material may be taught (in a country with "freedom of religion"),
is NOT THE SAME KIND OF RELIGIOUS GROUP POSITION that we saw in the
history of the early 20th century. Now, we have multiple religious and political
and non-religious and racial and cultural groups, ALL asserting

"My concept of our shared reality is correct...
And we will destroy all other groups that have a different concept
of our shared reality!"
And, we are citizens, and righteous people, and lawful patriots, even
though we are going to lynch your group!"

The Bible would simply call this lawlessness.

ALL GROUPS, that hold to these various (and often amorphous) concepts
of reality, are INCOMPATIBLE WITH CHRISTIANITY. (That's a very politically
incorrect statement, but it needs to be said.)

THAT they are incompatible with Christianity, is the simple test that we will
face our Lord Christ, as the great Judge, at the final judgment, and what we have
done in this life will be tested, according to a very specific (and fixed) Moral-Ethical
code, as the Bible presents, and it will not make any difference is all sorts of
people from all sorts of groups object

"Well, THAT'S not how I saw it happen!"

---------- ---------

The question of WHO designs K12 curricula, and how it is funded, is crucial.
And, this is not a simplistic "Christian nationalists versus the pagans" situation.
Epistemology, and regaining a sound epistemology in K12, is CENTRAL to the
revival of American K12 education. And, ALMOST NONE of the "Christian
nationalist" groups, or the "progressive far-left" groups, have shown any interest
in the historical discussion of Epistemology.

We need to strip away the surface rhetoric, and propose a sound K12 curricula
that starts with a reasonable (and non-partisan) Epistemology, and builds on that.

(And, the start to that, is what I have done so far in this thread, by presenting
the common historical Moral-Ethical models, and by doing this, reminding
Christians of the many philosophical primitives that are involved in critiquing
these models.)

 

[FireDragon76]

Thanks for your comment.

A lot of younger Christians are probably not familiar with the Protestant
denominations at the beginning of the 20th century. The "mainline" denominations
used to have a pretty high standard of scholarship, and could interact with the
"tech" areas of study at the time. However, the strong emergence of the anti-
Darwinian denominations, brought with it a backlash of anti-intellectualism.
And in this backlash, the mainline denominations (often high church) got the
reputation of being "liberal", and soft on core Christian theology. (And, some
in the mainline denominations did flop over into a tech-science form of
cultural Christianity).

All this is history, and may be foreign, to younger Protestants. But ...
THINGS HAVE GOTTEN VERY WEIRD, WITH THE ELECTRONIC SCREEN
GENERATIONS OF CHRISTIANS. I say this, because ALL the younger
American generations (Christians and non-Christians alike) have tended to
ditch logic, and embrace (I assert) more emotion-based and culture-based
"explanations": aka, types of conspiracy theories, whether or not they are
flaming fantasy tales repeated to try to blame some political group, or whether
they are just a slipping of a careful Epistemology and the replacement of it with
the "I think reality is ..." radical individualism.

Whether or not the readers (here) are Christians, America has become a HUGE Epistemology
DESERT!!!

When politicians are angry, and don't want ANY fact-checking on their speeches,
or when they assert that their rhetoric was only meant "to make a point", and
should not be taken as a statement of truth, or when kids are glued to a screen
and demand to be entertained all day long (choosing THIS as their reality, as
apposed to the REAL WORLD, Christians NEED TO BE CONCERNED THAT (OFTEN)
THE PERCEIVED REALITY OF THE YOUNGER GENERATIONS, IS NOT COMPATIBLE
WITH THE SHARED REALITY THAT SCRIPTURE PRESENTS.

So, this question of education, and what secular curricula should be taught, and
what religious material may be taught (in a country with "freedom of religion"),
is NOT THE SAME KIND OF RELIGIOUS GROUP POSITION that we saw in the
history of the early 20th century. Now, we have multiple religious and political
and non-religious and racial and cultural groups, ALL asserting

"My concept of our shared reality is correct...
And we will destroy all other groups that have a different concept
of our shared reality!"
And, we are citizens, and righteous people, and lawful patriots, even
though we are going to lynch your group!"

The Bible would simply call this lawlessness.

ALL GROUPS, that hold to these various (and often amorphous) concepts
of reality, are INCOMPATIBLE WITH CHRISTIANITY. (That's a very politically
incorrect statement, but it needs to be said.)

THAT they are incompatible with Christianity, is the simple test that we will
face our Lord Christ, as the great Judge, at the final judgment, and what we have
done in this life will be tested, according to a very specific (and fixed) Moral-Ethical
code, as the Bible presents, and it will not make any difference is all sorts of
people from all sorts of groups object

"Well, THAT'S not how I saw it happen!"

---------- ---------

The question of WHO designs K12 curricula, and how it is funded, is crucial.
And, this is not a simplistic "Christian nationalists versus the pagans" situation.
Epistemology, and regaining a sound epistemology in K12, is CENTRAL to the
revival of American K12 education. And, ALMOST NONE of the "Christian
nationalist" groups, or the "progressive far-left" groups, have shown any interest
in the historical discussion of Epistemology.

We need to strip away the surface rhetoric, and propose a sound K12 curricula
that starts with a reasonable (and non-partisan) Epistemology, and builds on that.

(And, the start to that, is what I have done so far in this thread, by presenting
the common historical Moral-Ethical models, and by doing this, reminding
Christians of the many philosophical primitives that are involved in critiquing
these models.)

Yuval Noah Harari has a new book on misinformation called Nexus, about how new technologies like the printing press at the time of the Reformation lead to intensification of paranoia and conspiracy theories. It took centuries for laws and norms to catch up with the technology.