The ECF's and why you won't read them.

[Gregory Thompson]

You taking up collections to get folks out of purgatory too?

 

[Tzaousios]

Since he didn't follow up on the flip side of "normal human birth (virginity over)" on the 'mary-as-channel' thread, I'd say pretty well. Can't have it both ways, eh? Christ was either born of "water and blood" or "mary-as-channel".

Well, not quite, because I do not think the original intent for reading the PoJ in the Byzantine church was to subscribe to Docetism or Gnosticism. It would be kind of ridiculous considering the ecumenical councils which condemned such heresies under the auspices of the Church. I understand, though, if one's presuppositions require that one draw such a dichotomy.

But you know the honest question I posed to you about your treatment of JudeChild before the thread was unceremoniously closed down.

Strange you villify someone when you yourself have no ready answer.

Vilify? I freely admitted the extent of my investigation of the canon business, both to you and to Rick Otto. Also, I told you what I thought of the whole process and why it bores me. What else do you want?

Like I said, make a choice. Either Christ was born of Mary with water and blood OR from her side (John of Damascus-east gate, aka "mary-as-channel").

Also, like I said, I understand when one's presuppositions require that one draw such dichotomies. I do not see it as either endorsing what you perceive to be orthodox or Docetism/Gnosticism. Others have said the same to you. What is it you are rooting for?

It is the advantage to actually reading the ECFs without the preconceived bias' apparent in many cut/paste jobs around here. The funniest one is thinking Tertullian supported "mary-as-channel" (aka ever-virgin) when he explicitely states the opposite (Joseph/Mary had James, Joses, etc).

Okay. Yes, I find the church fathers very interesting reading, indeed. The use and abuse of their writings in these kinds of discussions is another matter.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think when penalty of death exists for believing the wrong thing according to a council of men .. all sorts of duplicity would exist .. i.e. say one thing and practice another.

 

[MamaZ]

I havent read any of the EFC. I really have not been drawn to do so.

 

[Hentenza]

I havent read any of the EFC. I really have not been drawn to do so.

I've read quite a bit from them and their writings are inspirational and instructive. I think you would like what most of them have to say.

 

[Ave Maria]

If every single non-Catholic or non-Orthodox Christian out there would read the early Church fathers I can almost guarantee that the vast majority of them would quickly choose to become either Catholic or Orthodox. Most likely they'd choose to be Catholic since Catholicism lines up with what the early Church fathers taught better than does Orthodoxy.

 

[Hentenza]

If every single non-Catholic or non-Orthodox Christian out there would read the early Church fathers I can almost guarantee that the vast majority of them would quickly choose to become either Catholic or Orthodox. Most likely they'd choose to be Catholic since Catholicism lines up with what the early Church fathers taught better than does Orthodoxy.

Nah! Been there, done that.

 

[Ave Maria]

Nah! Been there, done that.

Well you might be an exception then. That said, since you seen that the early Church clearly taught different things than what the Baptist church teaches, why did you still choose to remain Baptist? I am just curious Hentenza. You can send me a private message in reply to this if you would like.

God bless,
Holly

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If every single non-Catholic or non-Orthodox Christian out there would read the early Church fathers I can almost guarantee that the vast majority of them would quickly choose to become either Catholic or Orthodox. Most likely they'd choose to be Catholic since Catholicism lines up with what the early Church fathers taught better than does Orthodoxy.

there's some truth there . a lot of the sentiments in the "emergent" groups (emerged from protestant/evangelical traditions) sound very ancient church just slightly tweaked .

 

[Hentenza]

Well you might be an exception then. That said, since you seen that the early Church clearly taught different things than what the Baptist church teaches, why did you still choose to remain Baptist? I am just curious Hentenza. You can send me a private message in reply to this if you would like.

God bless,
Holly

Actually the early church did not teach as the Catholic church teaches. I consider the Baptist church (SBC) to have a much closer model to the NT church than the RC.

 

[Rev Randy]

If every single non-Catholic or non-Orthodox Christian out there would read the early Church fathers I can almost guarantee that the vast majority of them would quickly choose to become either Catholic or Orthodox. Most likely they'd choose to be Catholic since Catholicism lines up with what the early Church fathers taught better than does Orthodoxy.

I was Baptist when I began reading the ECFs. They did not even begin to change me. Well, that's not entirely true as I kept reading about the Body and Blood and knew they saw something I did not see. But I read them for quite a while without changing.
It was actually talking with Sacramental believers in person that started me seeking and then some wise guy gave me a book about the Divine Liturgy and it was all over but the crying. I did a lot of that.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I was Baptist when I began reading the ECFs. They did not even begin to change me. Well, that's not entirely true as I kept reading about the Body and Blood and knew they saw something I did not see. But I read them for quite a while without changing.
It was actually talking with Sacramental believers in person that started me seeking and then some wise guy gave me a book about the Divine Liturgy and it was all over but the crying. I did a lot of that.

I found the idea that the sacraments were a "vehicle for a mystery" quite helpful . i like the mysteries .

 

[Standing Up]

I havent read any of the EFC. I really have not been drawn to do so.

You and that "heretic" Tertullian who said, "To know nothing in opposition to the rule of faith is to know all things." IOW, it's all in scripture.

 

[Standing Up]

If every single non-Catholic or non-Orthodox Christian out there would read the early Church fathers I can almost guarantee that the vast majority of them would quickly choose to become either Catholic or Orthodox. Most likely they'd choose to be Catholic since Catholicism lines up with what the early Church fathers taught better than does Orthodoxy.

Nah! Been there, done that.

I'll second that rejection ...

 

[sunlover1]

Not really. Unlike what has been demonstrated in this thread, I have no overwhelming need to say that God canonized specifically the Protestant canon by magic, and write off that he used godly and learned men as his agents to organize the tainted Catholic canon.

Which post do you refer to?
All of the protestants I know would say that God used men to write and recognize His Word.

This might bless you!:
Rich Mullins - Creed - YouTube

 

[miamited]

Rich Mullins,

Some of the finest worship music. The pure explanation of the gospel in song. That's a practice that began with the song of Miriam after the descendents of Abraham were saved out of Egypt. I wonder if his passion for singing his praises will be a part of his resurrected self? I'm certainly counting on our being able to sing praises to God in the eternal life.

(Sorry, for the digression. Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.)

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

You and that "heretic" Tertullian who said, "To know nothing in opposition to the rule of faith is to know all things." IOW, it's all in scripture.

Amen.

2 Timothy 3:14-17: "14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (NKJV, emphasis added)

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The creation .. is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

If every single non-Catholic or non-Orthodox Christian out there would read the early Church fathers I can almost guarantee that the vast majority of them would quickly choose to become either Catholic or Orthodox. Most likely they'd choose to be Catholic since Catholicism lines up with what the early Church fathers taught better than does Orthodoxy.

Nah! Been there, done that.

I'll second that rejection ...

I third that rejection. I really mean no offense when I say this, but I see becoming Catholic or Orthodox (or any other Christian sect similar) as being put into spiritual bondage to that particular religion, with all its countless rules and regulations. I really mean no offense, but I don't know how else to explain my thoughts on this issue. I'm sharing the Scripture passages of 1 Corinthians 1:12-17; Galatians 5:1-6; and Colossians 2:20-23, because (1) I believe 1 Corinthians 1:12-17 signifies that all believers are one in Christ and are not to be divided by church affiliations, doctrines, rituals or traditions; and (2) I believe Galatians 5:1-6 and Colossians 2:20-23 signifies the believer's freedom in Christ and how a believer should not become entangled in the commandments or doctrines of men. And when I further think about what the Apostle Paul is saying in Colossians 2:20-23, I automatically think of the Roman Catholic Church, simply because of all its commandments and doctrines of men (prayers, traditions, rituals, dogmas, extra-biblical beliefs, rules, regulations, etc.). I really mean no offense by what I'm saying here. I apologize if what I wrote here offends.

1 Corinthians 1:12-17: "12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect." (NKJV, emphasis added)

Galatians 5:1-6: "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." (NKJV, emphasis added)

Colossians 2:20-23: "20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh." (NKJV, emphasis added)

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

The creation .. is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Please tell me where in Scripture it is written that creation is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.