The Dragon (satan)

[Rafael]

Allah commands Muslims to fight against Christians and Jews until they are reduced to a condition worse than that of slaves.

Sura 9:29 Fight those who believe not in God (Allah) and his apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of the truth [even if they are] of the people of the book [i.e. Jews and Christians], until they pay jizya [humiliating tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued [enslaved].

A being who is determined to wipe out Jews and Christians, now who might that be? The Bible has the answer:

Revelations 12:17 And the dragon (satan) was wroth with the woman (Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed (the Jews today), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (the Christians).

"The Sword", says Mohammad, "is the key of heaven and hell; a drop of blood shed in the cause of Allah, a night spent in arms, is of more avail than two months of fasting and prayer; whoever falls in battle, his sins are forgiven, and at the day of judgment his limb will be supplied by the wings of angels and cherubim."

 

[cbk]

Raphe, if you believe in a rapture, we can see that the Jews will be in deep, deep trouble when we leave. Who will be their friend?

Non-Muslims will choose between Jew and Muslim, and since the Non-Muslims who miss the rapture will be "weak or non-believers", it is easy to see who they will choose to back.

The "new" U.S., the "new" U.N., the "new" Russia, and the "new" E.U. will be much different than we see now. MORE ANTI-JEWISH and just as powerful.

Think if the rapture happened soon? What would become of the "peace" plan??? Will it be changed? Modified? Will the 'covenant' promising peace be changed???

 

[Rafael]

The rapture just doesn't make sense to me, when Jesus told us that in the world we would have tribulation. Even today, thousands are being killed and martyered because they are Christians - but God is going to all of a sudden take His church out so that they don't have to be witness to their own faith....? I don't think so, and it would be a slap in the face to those that stood up and died for their faith in Roman Empire persecutions, the recent Nigerian Christians being slain by Muslims, or to any other oppressor inspired by the devil.

2 Tim. 3:12 Yea, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Rev. 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Preservation of the flesh and a desire to not have any discomfort in this life is a product of our worldly society which we are not to love or be friends with (1 Jo.2:15). Much of what was said about the last days is taking place now, where there would be false teachers that come in the name of Jesus, appealing to the flesh and doing wonders and signs. People will not endure sound doctrine anymore, but seek after those preachers that will scratch their ears and say as the old false prophets that "they would be safe", and judgment be deferred.

2 Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

The only thing the rapture does is tell people that judgment will be deferred, and they can dabble in sin just a little bit more - besides, the Lord won't return until the temple is rebuilt or the antiChrist is revealed....right....? Well I think that we are the temple of God, now, and that the antiChrist has been revealed spiritually since the very time of His (the Lord's) first appearing.

1 Jo.2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


To think of a scenerio where Muslims would become friends with Jews and convert because the church was taken out is something of a fantasy and "turning to fables", in my opinion. I used to believe in the rapture of the Church when it was taught to me as truth when I was a young Christian, and I read the book "Late Great planet Earth". But when I learned that there was more views, I decided to study them all. I understand the rapture theory, but think it is very inconsistant with the balance of scripture. God knows how to keep His people while they are on the earth and keep them from His wrath. The mystery of the Church in Christ is as debated as the Trinity by men and we have to trust Him to lead us to the truth while here. Although I don't agree completely, as yet, with Ellis Skolfield's books on the end-times, I would recommend reading the book "The False Prophet" or "SOZO - Survival Guide for a Remnant Church". Either on of these books have tied up a lot of loose ends about end-times for me, as I had questions about other scriptures for each of the other views on end-times, including the rapture theory.
I do lean towards believing in the milliniel kingdom, though, which he does not, as I see many scriptures referring to a restoration of Ephraim and Judah (Israel) to their own land permanently.

John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

 

[cbk]

Raphe, I am not suggesting that Christians will be raptured to ESCAPE a tribulation. We go through tribulation every day.

In Revelation, the opening of the seals and blowing of the trumpets reflect a tribulation for the peoples who endure them. I believe Christians are there for these events which have slowly been happening for the past 2000 years.

I do, however, believe that the Christians will be raptured away, but not until after the seven trumpets are sounded (or seven warning blasts). To me this occurs in Revelation 14:14, when the Son of Man appears on the cloud to harvest the earth. Like in Matthew.

I believe the period after this is not a time of tribulation, but a full blown time of the wrath of God. As Noah was protected from the flood of the earth by being lifted up in an ark of protection, so too will we be lifted up to meet the Son of Man and be protected IN him.

Note: this time comes after the seven seals and seven trumpets.

I do not look at the rapture as an ESCAPE for us, but merely THE time for us to INHERIT our reward. After which, God in his righteousness will judge the world harshly, but in his love, he will still give others a chance, and some will convert. In other words, after we receive our inheritance, God, in his righteous love, will still give his people one more chance, even while the earth is under his wrath.

Revelation 18:4 "Come out of her, MY people."

 

[Rafael]

Thanks cbk for your clarification. I, too, have wondered about the timing for a long time of the rapture, but as of late, am considering the fact that we will be protected during the wrath of God much as Noah was protected from God's wrath.
I do think you are correct in believing that tribulation is a common part of the Christian life, but lately there is a great movement away from that belief. Almost daily, there are Christians dying for their faith in Africa. The Muslims are putting them to the sword. We have none of that in America, as of yet and wonder how it could come to pass here in the next few years, as I see that dates see m to be pointing that prophecy is happening right under our noses and much is lost by looking for other signs........ We will see, eventually, and I hope we are ready and have our wicks trimmed and lamps full.

 

[cbk]

Thanks cbk for your clarification. I, too, have wondered about the timing for a long time of the rapture, but as of late, am considering the fact that we will be protected during the wrath of God much as Noah was protected from God's wrath.
I do think you are correct in believing that tribulation is a common part of the Christian life, but lately there is a great movement away from that belief. Almost daily, there are Christians dying for their faith in Africa. The Muslims are putting them to the sword. We have none of that in America, as of yet and wonder how it could come to pass here in the next few years, as I see that dates see m to be pointing that prophecy is happening right under our noses and much is lost by looking for other signs........ We will see, eventually, and I hope we are ready and have our wicks trimmed and lamps full.

Amen, I pray for those in Africa.

But, in a way, what difference would it be if God protected these people without rapturing them away and taking them away????

Yet, however, I just believe in a literal taking away from 'two will be in the field' and 'two will be in a bed'. I do not see how this could be figurative in the spiritual sense.

 

[Rafael]

The angels gather the tares for destruction of fire, as I understand the verses.

 

[cbk]

The angels gather the tares for destruction of fire, as I understand the verses.

I believe we had this discussion before the great crash of June 2003!

1) Under Matthew 24, Jesus states that "they will gather his ELECT from the four winds" and this is with a loud "trumpet" call. This fits well with Revelation 14.

2) The tares being gathered "first" could signify a couple things. But, the one I lean to is that the final judgement of Revelation 20 will be the time period where the tares will be burned before the saints inherit the kingdom.

So basically, there seems to be two periods of time when the saved and unsaved are seperated. One is the time before the seven vials of God's wrath and the other is the final judgement in Revelation 20.

Another interpretation is that the tares are 'gathered' but not taken from the field, because farmers usually burn these IN THE FIELD. They do not waste time and energy removing them.

The good wheat is removed from the field, physically. The tares are left in the field to be burned.

 

[SonWorshipper]

One other interesting thing about tares, if I may interject here, I have read that they are difficult if not impossible to distinguish from wheat, that is until harvest time and it becomes apparent. That said I believe this parable is significant in telling us that the Lord will winnow out his true faithful from those that are in amongst his own. These will be the ones he refers to as:

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7:22

 

[cbk]

One other interesting thing about tares, if I may interject here, I have read that they are difficult if not impossible to distinguish from wheat, that is until harvest time and it becomes apparent. That said I believe this parable is significant in telling us that the Lord will winnow out his true faithful from those that are in amongst his own. These will be the ones he refers to as "On that day, Lord, Lord, have we not?................... And he will answer "I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Thank you for your reply. And please keep posting.

I don't know if you were here before the system crash in June, but the 'tares' discussion goes back to an interesting debate over exactly WHO will be taken in the rapture, if a physical rapture is to occur.

Most believe the "saved" WILL BE TAKEN.

Others believe the "UNsaved" WILL BE TAKEN. ie, "gather the tares FIRST to be burned.

So, the question is "Who will be taken FIRST?"

I believe the "saved" will be taken to the barn while the "unsaved" will be left in the field. The gathering, so to speak, means a seperating of those while they are still UPON the earth. After ear-marked, the saved will be identified and taken to the storage area while the unsaved are left in the field (the earth) to be burned in judgement with the seven vials.

 

[SonWorshipper]

Was out looking around for a picture

( and thank you for your kind invitation ) and also to make sure I was remembering this correctly as it was some time and many books back that I read this. I did find confirmation though and want to share.


This is what I found:

Tares

This plant is the bearded darnel or rye grass, and resembles wheat so closely that it can prosper in the cornfields and be almost indistinguishable until fully grown. It flourishes in quantities in countries along the Mediterranean Sea. To the farmer it is one of the most destructive of all weeds, and in Eastern countries women and children are employed to pick out these tares before they can ruin the good crop. As soon as the ears are formed, it is possible to recognize them, but both the wheat and the tares are usually left intermixed until after reaping. Then they are separated by a fanning that blows away the lighter and smaller seeds of the tares, and after threshing, all seeds are shaken in a sieve. Thus any darnel seeds still remaining will usually pass through and leave the larger wheat behind. The inner coats of these seeds often harbor seriously poisonous fungus growths that, if eaten by humans or animals, will cause dizziness and vomiting and sometimes even death. Virgil calls it the infelix lolium, and the Arabs siwan. -All The Plants Of The Bible, Winifred Walker
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That might make that parable easier to understand or not, lets see what we can hash out.

 

[SonWorshipper]

I think to get a better understanding here we need a Jewish perspective, if I may?

Since we are talking Wheat here, and also a harvest we must ask why this parable? The wheat harvest is mentioned not only in this parable but also in the Torah. It is the second feast required by the L-rd of which every man must present himself before the L-rd.

The first is Pesache - Passover
The second Shavuot - Pentecost

Now what does that have to do with this parable?

Shavuot is also called the "Feast of weeks" a countdown starts from the day of first fruits and many that have studied the feasts understand that Yeshua/Jesus was presented to the Father as the first fruits from the dead. This happened on what is known as Resurrection day.

John 20 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my G-d, and your G-d.

The countdown starts there and goes for seven weeks. The day after is Shavuot. 7X7=49 +1 = 50 We know that the Ruach HaKodesh ( the Holy Spirit) descended that day and the "church" was born, or more succinctly the believers now had the born again heart, the heart of flesh indwelt by the L-rd G-d, the heart that He could write His Torah directly on.

Now what did the L-rd command his people to do on that 50th day? Now pay attention here, it gets good. The people are to bring to the Temple not just the firstfruits of the wheat harvest but two loaves of bread, they are to be baked with fine flour and leaven. These loaves represent the coming of the church 50 days after the firstfruits ( Yeshua) presented to the Father.

Now why is there leaven in those loaves? We know that leaven is representative of sin and as my signature says, a little leavens the whole lump. I believe that these two loaves represent the church ( both Jew and Gentile) and are like the wheat and tares, looking the same, and being brought together, but that leaven shows the sin that is still inthe church.

So what do you think?

 

[SonWorshipper]

One thing I forgot to mention , the third and final Holy Day that was required that all be present at was Sukkot which among other things is the Feast of ingathering, of the FINAL HARVEST

Yeshua fulfilled the first four Holy Feasts of the Lord which are called the spring feasts and at his second coming He will fulfill the last three , the fall feasts.

Right now we are in that growing of the crops period, the summer time between the spring feasts and the fall feasts and I believe the summer is almost over............

 

[Rafael]

Thanks for that rich information. Those two loaves were called a wave offering, weren't they?

 

[cbk]

One thing I forgot to mention , the third and final Holy Day that was required that all be present at was Sukkot which among other things is the Feast of ingathering, of the FINAL HARVEST

Yeshua fulfilled the first four Holy Feasts of the Lord which are called the spring feasts and at his second coming He will fulfill the last three , the fall feasts.

Right now we are in that growing of the crops period, the summer time between the spring feasts and the fall feasts and I believe the summer is almost over............

Love the info. Thanks very, very much for your perspective.

 

[SonWorshipper]

You are welcome!

Yes this was called a "wave offering" that the Priest waved before the altar forward, backward, and then up and down, something like we do on Sukkot with the waving of the luvav ( branches).

It could not be burnt upon the altar as the L-rd permitted no leaven on the altar. After waving it was set aside for the priests to eat.

 

[cbk]

You are welcome!

Yes this was called a "wave offering" that the Priest waved before the altar forward, backward, and then up and down, something like we do on Sukkot with the waving of the luvav ( branches).

It could not be burnt upon the altar as the L-rd permitted no leaven on the altar. After waving it was set aside for the priests to eat.

SonWorshipper, I was wondering if July 20th has any significance to those of the Jewish faith this year? I believe its this Sunday?

 

[Rafael]

SonWorshipper - thanks again, and I am curious about the alter. Was the alter for burning inside the Holy of Holies? I thought that only the Ark of the Covenant was in the Holy of Holies, and it could only be ministered to by a special priest on special occasions. Thanks for any extra information, as I wonder about the leaven which does represent sin, if I'm not mistaken...??