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The Double Message of Eternal Security.

stuart lawrence

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You said the lost sheep lost their salvation.

Not true. They would not still be a sheep if their salvation was lost.
Judas followed Christ as a faithfull disciple for three and a half years???

Then Jesus replied: Have I not chosen twelve of you? Yet one of you IS( is) a devil. ( He meant Judas son of Simon Iscariot who though one of the twelve was later to betray him
John6:70&71

So are devil's faithful followers of Christ?

So in your view a habitual thief who constantly breaks one of the TC( and under the OC), can at the same time be a faithful follower of Christ?
A good example of quoting much scripture without understanding the truth
 
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ToBeLoved

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I think your conversation about Judas is with another poster.

I'm talking specifically about verses where Jesus goes after the lost sheep. I don't believe Judas was ever saved as an aside. But this is not my conversation here. I think your Judas conversation is with someone else.
 
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stuart lawrence

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Judas followed Christ as a faithfull disciple for three and a half years??????

Have I not chosen twelve of you, but one IS(is) a devil. He meant Judas, son of Simon Iscariot who though one of the twelve was later to betray him
John6:70&71

So in your view, a devil can be a faithfull follower of Christ.
And in your view, a habitual thief, who constantly breaks one of the TC( and under the OC) could at the same time be a faithfull follower of Christ.
Your post is a good example of quoting much scripture without understanding the truth
 
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stuart lawrence

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Sorry, my mistake, did not mean to post it to you
 
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1stcenturylady

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Of course not. You already know that.

Don't forget, Jesus hadn't died for anyone's sins. And Judas killed himself. Unlike Peter who denied Christ three times, but repented. We all have free choice.
 
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Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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No, you are not reading the text I showed you.
Again, Jesus specifically says they did not hear God's Word (John 8:47), and they did not do the works of Abraham (John 8:39) and they seeked to kill Him because His Word (i.e. God's Word) had no place within them (John 8:37).


...
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Yes, you are making my point for me by underlining verses that I would use against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved gospel. Jesus's point here is obvious in the fact that He condemend the Pharisees because they did not keep God's Word.

Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 says they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, justice, faith, and mercy.


...
 
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ToBeLoved

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You are talking about the Pharisees but not looking at what Jesus
Specifically said to the pPharisees or why He called them vipers. I see.
 
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ToBeLoved

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It has nothing to do with eternal security. Jesus hadn't even died yet, so I don't know why you are trying to make this point. Your text doesn't support it
 
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stuart lawrence

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Of course not. You already know that.

Don't forget, Jesus hadn't died for anyone's sins. And Judas killed himself. Unlike Peter who denied Christ three times, but repented. We all have free choice.

Hi
How are you, haven't heard from you for a couple of days.
Absolutely. Jesus hadn't died for anyone's sins whilst he walked this earth. So no one could be in a saved state if they were a habitual thief under the law.
I dont know any habitual thieves who claim to be born again Christians under the NC either
 
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Dan61861

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Jason, you are creating a great conflict within the Word of God. All sin leads to death, for the wages of sin is death. It isn’t as satan said, ye shall surely not die. The only sins that do not lead unto death are the sins God has forgiven, “Blessed is the man whom the Lord does not impute sin”. The only way a man does not sin is by God’s mercy, the Lord not charging that man with sin. This is why a man needs to be born again, under the Grace of God and not under the Law.

We are born again when we come to repentance of the knowledge of Truth. Jesus is that truth, Christ and Him crucified. The Spirit of Truth beareth witness of that Truth. “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me”. This is why we Baptize.

  1. Christ commanded us to Baptize.
  2. It represents our own death, burial and resurrection in Christ
  3. It is a public declaration that we believe the Gospel of Jesus our Lord.

We are saved by the Grace of God, in Faith, in Christ our Lord. We are no longer under the Law, we do not look to the Law for our righteousness. Jesus has become our righteousness. When we walk in the Spirit, in Christ we Love one another. This is the righteousness that the righteous does. “This is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another”. This is the commandments that God has given to us.

  • That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ
  • Love one another, as he gave commandment.

Read the book of 1 John again. Read it as a whole, it is all about living in God’s Love. For He is Love. When we love one another, we are in Christ. Love for Christ, love for our brothers and sisters is God’s commandments.

In Christ

Daniel
 
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stuart lawrence

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Many do not understand spiritual truth concerning this do they. In order to be declared righteous/ justified under the law requires 100 percent perfect obedience of the law. The law does not allow for little sins to be committed( as some put it) and for you to remain righteous under a righteousness of observing the law.
Human logic says: if I obey pretty well, but only have little sins, I can remain justified before God for i have lived a pretty good life.
But human logic is far from spiritual truth.
As you say. All sin condemns under the law. Great post
 
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Dan61861

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Thanks

The Apostles asked Christ...who can be saved. Jesus replied with man it is impossible with God all things are possible. Our salvation is in God's hands. Just as Joshua told Isreal...you cannot serve the Lord. Their reply ye, we will serve the Lord. If we offer up our righteousness, what we do that is good, God also looks upon our wickedness, our sin.

In Christ
Daniel
 
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Dan61861

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Yep, no way Judas was saved. His failure was for told in the psalms. Peter said, as it is written let another take his office.

In Christ
Daniel
 
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JLB777

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You said the lost sheep lost their salvation.

Not true. They would not still be a sheep if their salvation was lost.

Ok let me try to understand what your saying.

Lost means your really saved.

Found means you are saved.

Ok got, thanks for clearing that up.


So Judas was lost, but since he was His sheep, he really was saved?



JLB
 
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JLB777

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23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:23


Was Peter the devil?

Peter was opposing the will of God.



60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:60-71


devil - Strong's G1228 - diabolos
  1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
    1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
  2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him

In this scene, other disciples turned back from following Him, showing that they no longer believed.

  • But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. vs. 64

  • Judas continued to follow Jesus, showing that at this point he continued to believe.


Then Peter confirmed, and spoke for the twelve:
  • we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” vs.


Judas became a traitor.

Judas was a sheep, then became a traitor.

  • Judas was appointed to inherit eternal life.

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:28-29

  • you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

  1. Judas believed for a while, then fell by transgression, having become a traitor.
  2. A traitor, by definition belongs to a kingdom, then becomes a traitor.
  3. Someone who was never apart of a kingdom, may be an enemy, but to be a traitor they have to be a part of that kingdom, then defect and become a traitor.

12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; 15 Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.
Luke 6:12-15


Saul was an enemy of the Gospel, then became Paul, an Apostle of the Lord.

Judas was an Apostle of the Lord, then became a traitor.


  • Becomes means they were the one thing, then changed and became the other.


JLB
 
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stuart lawrence

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It doesn't matter how much you quote Jesus said:

ONE( one) of you is a devil.
NOT two! Peter wasn't included!!!!!
Jesus spoke in the present tense.

One of you IS a devil!

I think you need to understand why Jesus said what he did to Peter! But as you are not willing to admit to error, not much point in me explaining it to you is there

So the fact remains. Rather than admit to error, you desperately try and suggest a devil can be a faithful follower of Christ. And someone who habitually broke one of the TC by being a thief could at the same time be a faithful follower if Christ. This is ridiculous, but some will try and reason anything rather than admit to being wrong.
I will leave you to it. this is not stimulating conversation
 
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stuart lawrence

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As a beside. I've generally found that people who quote the Greek, refer to concordances like strongs, and call Or infer people are heretics, don't have the spiritual understanding they should have.
The Holy Spirit leads into spiritual truth when you read the Bible. He brings you to understand the truth contained in it. And he doesn't need the assistance of concordances or an understanding of the Greek, or Aramaic translations in order to enlighten you
 
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1stcenturylady

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Right
 
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