The Double Message of Eternal Security.

ToBeLoved · Jul 12, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Absolutely. As the Pharisees of Jesus day proved. The more in earnest you are as to being justified/ righteous by observing the law, the more you are filled with wickedness,hypocrisy and everything unclean on the inside. As you say, the outside of the cup sparkles, but not the Inside

The Pharisee's of Jesus time were hypocrites though. Jesus was very stern in Matthew 23, so I don't think this is the normal, per se.

Jesus even went so far as to say the "blood of the prophet's" would be on their hands. That is really firm.

Matthew 23:29-35
29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ sins. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell?

34Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altars

ToBeLoved · Jul 12, 2017

Dan61861 said:
Paul illustrates this perfectly with himself, a Pharisee of the Pharisees. The 144,000 that Jason enjoys bringing up were redeemed. How are they redeemed, by the blood of Christ...their redeemer.

Doesn't Paul say this because of all the Christians he persecuted as a Pharisee also? Paul I think is showing where he was before.

ToBeLoved · Jul 12, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Why are you filled with wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean on the inside if you earnestly preach righteousness of observing the law?
You are full of hypocrisy because you cannot practice what you preach. You must demand of others what you cannot attain to in your own life. For, the letter kills.
And you are full of wickedness and everything unclean on the inside for you live under the power of sin( 1cor15:56)
Rom7:7-11 perfectly illustrates this.
Coveting is sin that can be committed without anyone but God knowing you are coveting. So you can look holy and pious on the outside, whilst being full of everything unclean on the Inside

Good verses. Relevant to some here.

ToBeLoved · Jul 12, 2017

Dan61861 said:
The appearance of holiness.....lots of men have achieved this very thing. I could take them to some Jewish communities that would blow them away in the Law. Many have achieved the appearance.

Yup. We do like to present ourselves in the best light. I know I have to watch that myself in my own life.

JLB777 · Jul 12, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
In the first example of the parable of the sower, Satan snatched the word out of the heart of people that had been placed there. How could he do that?
Simple answer. The true message was placed in their heart. Christ died for their sins. They stand before God spotless, not because if what they did, but because of what Jesus did for them. Satan then appeals to their human logic: You can't be a Christian unless you live a holy life, you cannot go around sinning and expect to attain heaven. This is accepted forwho could argue against such logic? But the person now no longer has a saviour from sin. They are their own saviour from it. Either they defeat it or are condemned to hell. The word has been snatched out of their heart.
In the second example, people with no true root accept the message. They make only a shallow commitment and set out on the path. But because their commitment was shallow, they give up and walk away when trials and persecutions come. No OSAS for them!
In the third example, it is not said they make a shallow commitment, but despite this, they keep getting sidetracked in their Christian walk by worldly ways. Jesus didn't say they lost their salvation, but they didn't mature in the faith. OSAS? Hmmmmmm.
And each time they got sidetracked, when they came back to the correct path they would have asked God to forgive them for being sidetracked. I think this example best addresses your oft quoted scriptures
But in the last example:
But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and UNDERSTANDS it. Matt13:23. This person produced a bountiful crop.
Safe to assume, this person came to Christ and fully surrendered their life to him from their heart. They then understood the truth of the message. Sins power is then broken in their life, for they understand they are not under law but under grace. God, who knows this person from the heart has been willing to surrender their life to him will never let anyone snatch them out of his Sons hand. They will always be secure. They, in reality do have OSAS! . He will never abandon them, or forsake them. He can make them stand:

To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy
Jude24

It is this fourth example in the parable, and only them that will or can accept and continue to follow the true path of grace. Only they can live their lives not under a righteousness of observing the law. Those with a shallow root cannot see it, and those who continually get sidetracked by the world must become hardened against it.
So different scriptures apply to different people. You have to be prepared to pay the price from your heart to live your life, not under law but under grace, and you have to be willing to accept the message.

Please address James 5:19-20 where I have showed that a brother can indeed turn from the truth and become lost.

JLB

stuart lawrence · Jul 12, 2017

JLB777 said:
Please address James 5:19-20 where I have showed that a brother can indeed turn from the truth and become lost.

JLB

Read the post again, slowly, especially the third example of the parable

JLB777 · Jul 12, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
You MUST read the Bible as a cohesive whole. Many on these websites just keep quoting their pet scriptures in opposition to others pet scriptures. It just becomes a scripture quoting contest. OSAS is a good description if such a contest. I freely admit, at first glance there are scriptures that appear to support both views. Does the Bible contradict itself? Of course not, the problem is in not understanding the WHOLE message contained in it. Many are not prepared to that. They are only interested in trying to defend their own narrow view, and never prepared to yield on anything, no matter what scripture is placed before them.
Having said that, let's see if we cannot make sense of your point and mine.
There are endless ways we can look at this from scripture, but in a separate post( so as not to write too long a post), I will take the parable of the sower as the example

You keep giving us your opinion, with no scripture.

How many ways does one need to look at the principle of someone who turns from the truth, who is in danger of their soul being lost unto eternal death, unless someone turns him back?

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death

The parable of the sower teaches us the same thing:

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Believe is the condition, by which we are saved.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

Unless you have a scripture that shows us, those who don't believe are saved, then you will need to repent of teaching false doctrine, which is heresy.

Heretics will not inherit the kingdom of God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

JLB

stuart lawrence · Jul 12, 2017

JLB777 said:
You keep giving us your opinion, with no scripture.

How many ways does one need to look at the principle of someone who turns from the truth, who is in danger of their soul being lost unto eternal death, unless someone turns him back?

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death

The parable of the sower teaches us the same thing:

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Believe is the condition, by which we are saved.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

Unless you have a scripture that shows us, those who don't believe are saved, then you will need to repent of teaching false doctrine, which is heresy.

Heretics will not inherit the kingdom of God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

JLB

Did I say otherwise than the person who made a shallow commitment was lost?
No I didn't!!!!

What I did, in response to the questions I put to you was explain scripture.
No point in just reeling off the letter all the time is there.
I don't consider myself a preacher/ minister, however ministers/ preachers have to explain scripture, not just woodenly quote it

stuart lawrence · Jul 12, 2017

JLB777 said:
You keep giving us your opinion, with no scripture.

How many ways does one need to look at the principle of someone who turns from the truth, who is in danger of their soul being lost unto eternal death, unless someone turns him back?

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death

The parable of the sower teaches us the same thing:

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Believe is the condition, by which we are saved.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

Unless you have a scripture that shows us, those who don't believe are saved, then you will need to repent of teaching false doctrine, which is heresy.

Heretics will not inherit the kingdom of God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

JLB

As you seem to be struggling to understand the post.
In the second example, those with a shallow root set out on the Christian path, they gave up and walked away when trials and persecutions came. THEY WERE LOST.
In the post I wrote: no OSAS for them!

In the third example, I left it open, because Jesus said these people did not mature in the faith. He didn't say they were lost! You mature by practising doing right from wrong. I said concerning these people, your scrupture, including from James would best apply in my view
Only in the fourth example did I state these would never be lost and I alluded to scripture in doing so.
Jesus said:
No one shall snatch them out of my hand.
Did Jesus lie?
I also quoted jude24.
You must read the Bible as a cohesive whole!!
You can't just cherry pick a few scriptures and ignore the rest!

ToBeLoved · Jul 12, 2017

JLB777 said:
Please address James 5:19-20 where I have showed that a brother can indeed turn from the truth and become lost.

JLB

The question is what is "death" in this verse? It is not loss of salvation, it is the spiritual death that comes from reoccuring sin. The brother brings back a brother and corrects them as to the sin issue and brings them back from the spiritual death of sin. Not loss of salvation.

Notice the reward is to the one bringing back the sinner to righteous and correct standing with God.

Dan61861 · Jul 12, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Doesn't Paul say this because of all the Christians he persecuted as a Pharisee also? Paul I think is showing where he was before.

From what I understand, Paul is saying he has no confidence in the flesh. He than presents his credentials that he has no confidence in.

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

stuart lawrence · Jul 12, 2017

Dan61861 said:
From what I understand, Paul is saying he has no confidence in the flesh. He than presents his credentials that he has no confidence in.

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

I love phil3:3. It's underlined in my bible

Dan61861 · Jul 12, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Yup. We do like to present ourselves in the best light. I know I have to watch that myself in my own life.

yes we do, from reading your post it seems you would consider it sin. The problem is some do not consider it sin, they believe they are righteous.

In Christ
Daniel

Bible Highlighter · Jul 12, 2017

Dan61861 said:
When I said I agreed, I didn't mean I agree with your doctrine. I agree with what you wrote Here. But you see unfortunately, you don't agree with what you wrote. You believe that Christ's righteousness is only on you when you first believe. Afterwards, you have to maintain your own righteousness to present yourself perfect like He is perfect. You say, you do this through Christ but you still must not sin or you are of the devil.

You believe you gain and loose your salvation, like a ship in a storm. You don't believe in the grace of God, you believe it is cheap grace. You believe you are close to perfect, you rarely sin anymore and when you do...it's just little ones. But these little ones are okay, because they are not sins unto death.

You are correct though, we do not believe the same way. I believe I am saved by Christ, through faith, by the Grace of God not by works of the flesh.

In Christ
Daniel

But the Bible says there are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-17). You have to ignore that to make your belief work. The Bible is clear that not all sin is the same. Jesus said the Pharisees should have ignored tithing in cumin and instead they should have done the weightier matters of the law like love, justice, mercy, and faith (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42).

What are you going to say to Jesus if He says to you face to face at the Judgment, if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven? (Matthew 6:15). What are you going to say to Jesus if he says if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body will be cast into hell fire? (Matthew 5:28-30).

What about Matthew 7?
What if he quoted Matthew 7 to you?
Do you not realize that the whole entire chapter is a focus on doing what Jesus says so as to be accepted by Him and it had nothing to do with having a mere belief alone on Jesus?

...

Bible Highlighter · Jul 12, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
The Pharisee's of Jesus time were hypocrites though. Jesus was very stern in Matthew 23, so I don't think this is the normal, per se.

Jesus even went so far as to say the "blood of the prophet's" would be on their hands. That is really firm.

Matthew 23:29-35
29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ sins. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell?

34Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altars

This is exactly why Eternal Security does not work. it says you can sin and still be saved (Which is similar to what the Pharisees believed). They thought they could break God's laws and yet they were saved because they were Abraham's chosen people. Just carefully re-read John 8.

...

ToBeLoved · Jul 12, 2017

Dan61861 said:
From what I understand, Paul is saying he has no confidence in the flesh. He than presents his credentials that he has no confidence in.

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

I still disagree. Paul specifically referenced the time when he was a Pharisee. I think that has meaning in these verses. He could have said before he came to Christ but he referenced that specific time.

ToBeLoved · Jul 12, 2017

Jason0047 said:
This is exactly why Eternal Security does not work. it says you can sin and still be saved (Which is similar to what the Pharisees believed). They thought they could break God's laws and yet they were saved because they were Abraham's chosen people. Just carefully re-read John 8.

...

Did you even read Matthew 23? The smallest thing they did was sin. They were in their hearts wicked, purposely making themselves and putting themselves in a high place because of position and nothing to do with God.

They put very heavy conditions on the people and acted holy themselves and were hypocrites as they did not follow those laws themselves. Being a Pharisee was a good job with status and money. It is equivelant to a religious politician.

Read Mat 23 again. You totally missed everything I was saying.

stuart lawrence · Jul 13, 2017

Jason0047 said:
But the Bible says there are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-17). You have to ignore that to make your belief work. The Bible is clear that not all sin is the same. Jesus said the Pharisees should have ignored tithing in cumin and instead they should have done the weightier matters of the law like love, justice, mercy, and faith (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42).

What are you going to say to Jesus if He says to you face to face at the Judgment, if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven? (Matthew 6:15). What are you going to say to Jesus if he says if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body will be cast into hell fire? (Matthew 5:28-30).

What about Matthew 7?
What if he quoted Matthew 7 to you?
Do you not realize that the whole entire chapter is a focus on doing what Jesus says so as to be accepted by Him and it had nothing to do with having a mere belief alone on Jesus?

...

Jesus did NOT say the pharisee s should have ignored tithing in cumin. That is a blatant lie unless you cannot understand plain English:

Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter, WITHOUT LEAVING THE FORMER UNDONE
Luke11:42

stuart lawrence · Jul 13, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
I still disagree. Paul specifically referenced the time when he was a Pharisee. I think that has meaning in these verses. He could have said before he came to Christ but he referenced that specific time.

But it is we who are the circumcision. We who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh
Phil3:3
I don't think we can say in the above Paul is referencing the time when he was a pharisee, unless in regard to as a pharisee he did put confidence in the flesh, but he doesn't now

stuart lawrence · Jul 13, 2017

JLB777 said:
You keep giving us your opinion, with no scripture.

JLB

I have given much scripture in this thread. However, if you just want to woodenly reel off the letter:

My sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can snatch them out of my hand
John10:27&28

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned. He has crossed over from death to life
John5:24

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in accordance with his will
Eph1:11

I will have mercy on whom I have met y
And I will have compassion on whom I have compassion
It does not therefore depend on Nan's desire or effort, but on Gods mercy
Rom9:16

If we disown him
He must disown us
If we are faithless
He remains faithful
For he cannot disown himself
2tim2:12&13

For by one sacrifice he made FOREVER PERFECT, those who are BEING made Holy
Heb10:14.
If you are BEING made Holy you are not perfect in your flesh are you!

To him who is able, TO KEEP YOU FROM FALLING and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy
Jude24

Therefore no one will be declared righteous/ justified in his sight be observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin
Rom3:20

Sin is the transgression of( or failing to observe) the law
1john3:4

But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages, to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself
Heb9:26

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us, but their going showed that none of them belonged to us
1john2:19

Don't just reel off scripture to oppose other scripture. Seek understanding that brings all scripture together!

And just being honest. I have spent a lot of years on these kinds of websites. I quickly discovered that those who like to use the word heretic seem unable to understand or explain the true message of grace/ justification. They seem to fill their heads with much issues that have little, if any bearing on their Christian walk, in respect of living an evermore holy life according to the gospel message.

The Double Message of Eternal Security.

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