The Double Message of Eternal Security.

stuart lawrence said:

Have you on numerous occasions stated the Christian is under a righteousness of observing 1050 NT commands?

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Jason0047 said:

And here is a list of 1,050+ New Testament Commands:
1,050 New Testament Commands | Christian Assemblies International

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Jason0047 said:

In Romans 7:14-24: Paul speaking as a Pharisee and he did not know about this NT Law yet and he did not know Jesus yet.

Now, in Romans 7:4, it says we have died to the Law. This is not in view of the New Covenant commands that says for us to "not covet" etc. (the moral law) because Paul says elsewhere that those who covet will not inherit the Kingdom of God (See Ephesians 5:5). In fact, we know that Paul is not referring to us having "died to the law" (Romans 7:4) as in reference to New Covenant Law because he says in Romans 7:6 that we are to serve in newness of Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. To see how this serving of newness of spirit works, see Romans 8:3-4 and then compare with Romans 13:8-10. For one of the fruits of the Spirit is love (See Galatians 5:22).

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

Anyways, here is a summary of Romans 7:

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

I hope this helps.
And may God bless you.

Source used:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

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Jason0047 said:

The passage in Colossians says,

13 "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins"
(Colossians 1:13-14).​

This is talking about "Initial Salvation." But to have "Continued Salvation" one has to walk in the light as Christ is in the light so that the blood of Jesus continually cleanses them of all sin.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth." (1 John 1:6).​

Same truth is expressed here:

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).​

And same truth is expressed here:

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).​

And same truth is expressed here:

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).​

And same truth is expressed here:

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

For...

"He that committeth sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).​

For Colossians 3:5-7 also says,

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them."​

For it is written:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish." (Romans 2:12).​

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Jason0047 said:

I think God knows those who will seek to justify sin or not in this life. But if a believer dies in sins that lead to spiritual death without asking for forgiveness of such sin, then they are not saved. God is in control of life and death. If they die in unrepentant sin that leads to spiritual death (like murder, hate, adultery, etc.), it is a judgment against them. Yes, I believe God is patient and He is not willing that any should perish so He gives men time or space to ask God for the forgiveness of their sin.



We beat this horse to death in another thread and we both came out of it by not agreeing with one another. I think it is best to agree to disagree on this one and let it rest.



I agree with these truths as stated in Scripture. I believe obedience is a necessary part of the salvation process because it is proof that Christ is living within a person. However, we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. However, fruits of the Lord within a believer's life will be evident if they truly accepted Jesus as their Savior.



I agree that one can be saved initially by having a belief alone on Christ as their Savior. But I believe in time they will also come to receive Christ and ask Him for forgiveness of their sin, too.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" (John 1:12).

But we do not exactly agree on what repentance means. But that is okay. We are already discussed that before and did not make any head way. So it is good to let that discussion rest.



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Jason0047 said:

More like maintain.
Jesus is the source of a person's life or eternal life (See 1 John 5:12).



Not attain it. More like abide.
If a believer truly repents of their sins, they receive a new heart with new desires.
They will not want to justify sin and they will seek to overcome it.
Granted, they still have free will, so they can go back to a life of sin and no longer abide with Christ and become unsaved. The choice is always in the person's hands. They can choose Christ and His good ways or not choose Christ and His good ways.



Believing the gospel is initial salvation and continued salvation. A believer will always trust and believe Jesus is their Savior, but Ephesians 5:25-27 says Jesus gave himself for the purpose of making us holy and without blemish in our conduct or behavior. Also see Titus 2:14. For Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him.



No. It is not you alone. Jesus will help you to overcome sin.
Romans 13:14 says put on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.



Yes, it can be if you make it that way. You still have free will to accept Christ and His good ways or reject Christ and His good ways. You cannot separate Christ's good ways from the person of Jesus Christ. They are linked together as one.


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Jason0047 said:

Yes, men cannot repent without God's drawing, but God draws all men to repent, though. God is not willing that any should perish. The only names that are left out of the Lamb's book of life (even since they were babies) are those who worship the beast in the future (Revelation 13:8). The rest of the world has their names written in the book of life as a baby because of Christ's sacrifice; When they grew up into sin and or they went prodigal, they then need to accept Jesus as their Savior and ask Him to forgive them of their sins and believe that He died and rose again on their behalf so as to be saved again. This is then followed by the fruits of repentance (Which forsaking sin and or obeying God's commands). This would be the proof in the pudding that Christ then lives within them. For Christ is the source of a person's salvation (1 John 5:12).


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Jason0047 said:

Indeed. That should be added, for sure.



Well, the false pharisee religion was what Paul was speaking against (with him recounting his past experience as a Pharisee when he was Saul). The Old Testament saint was also regenerated spiritually and had a new heart and new desires and God dwelled with them and helped them to obey His commands such as "Thou shalt not." The "Thou shalt not" is still apart of the New Testament commands. It is not wrong to obey "Thou shalt not" commands, but one has to dwell with God in order to truly obey them and be right with the Lord. Just obeying a set of laws alone never saved anyone, even in the Old Testament.



Well, we all need to have a new regenerated heart to be saved... yes.
Also, a person cannot obey God without the Lord living in them to give them understanding and to give them His power to truly overcome their sins.
But we are under the commands within the New Testament.
Keeping some of these commands are a salvation issue and not keeping others is not a salvation issue.
For there are sins that lead to spiritual death and sins that do not lead to spiritual death (1 John 5:16-17).
The New Testament Scriptures were written by God so they are for us (This would include any NT commands).



I did answer it. However, I did not answer his question using the words he wanted me to use because he was hoping to catch me saying something contradictory. I told him to present the post he was referring to (By the question he was asking). I said I do not remember what post he was talking about in relation to the question he asked. But he kept refusing to bring forth the post # or thread and kept accusing me falsely. He said my refusal to answer in the way he dictated exactly meant that I was guilty in some way. But I answered his question multiple times using dfferent words; And he never did bring up the post # of the words I had spoken (of which his question was based upon).

Not good at all.



That is only one proposed number from one particular website. If you were to type in the keywords "New Testament commandments" into Google, you will see this as one source at a particular website. However, I am no way affiliated with this website or organization. I merely agree with the verses presented as being commands in the NT. As of this date: I currently do not know the exact number of commands in the New Testament yet. But I would like to find out one day. So far, I am still doing my study on that topic. It is a rather lengthy study. I have found another website that has a list of the of the commands in the New Testament. Here is that site (if you are interested):

Uncategorized list:
List of Commands in the New Testament - Biblical Research Reports

Categorized List:
God's Commands in the New Testament - Biblical Research Reports

But it is not an exhaustive list, either.
In my own personal written study document, I have found commands that both this website and the other one has missed.



The 1,050 is just one proposed list of New Testament commandments. I do not think it was meant to be an exhaustive list; For I have discovered commands that are not on that list.



They are NT or commands taken exculsively from the pages of the New Testament.



Both. The "thou shalt not" is just another way of loving your neighbor. God puts the "thou shalt nots" in His Word because people have different or funny ideas of what loving their neighbor means. God does not want anyone to creat their own version of loving their neighbor. Paul's point in Romans 13:8-10 was that if you truly loved your neighbor, you will automatically keep the "thou shalt nots" or the moral law. Paul is not saying we should just ignore the "thou shalt nots" and just define loving our neighbor in how we see fit. Yes, God can lead us by His Spirit, but sometimes the heart is deceitful and gets off course and track of God's plan. That is why He gave us His Word. It gives us no exuse as to what is good and what is evil.



While I appreciate your optimism, me and Stuart are on two opposite sides of a chasm.
The fact that you do not see that kind of disturbs me a little. I believe serious sin leads to spiritual death. Stuart does not believe this. Yes, he may say a true believer will be defined by living a generally holy life, but that does not mean he does not think he cannot abide in sin on occasion and still be saved. For he does not believe sin leads to spiritual death because he has a belief on Jesus. This is still a turning of God's grace into a doctrine of immorality that Jude warns us about (Jude 1:4).


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Kenny'sID said:

Why is it funny that I would ask for specifics? Are these details you need to leave out in order to defend your end of this? Or things you need to hide in order to make your questions work for you? Be open about everything, else everyone sees exactly what you are about. Hide nothing, and answer all questions, as I already said.

You fell apart here a lot faster than I expected.

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Jason0047 said:

Actually, most (and possibly not all) Eternal Security proponents only believe in a half gospel or a milk type only gospel (i.e. The gospel's initial portion that tells them to believe in His death and resurrection - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This is the milk of the Word that the Corinthians could only accept. It was the only message they could bear because they were still yet carnal (See 1 Corinthians 3:2-3). It's why Paul said he came not to know anything among the Corinthians accept Jesus and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2) because they would not be able to bear the second half of the message of the gospel (i.e. the meat of the Word).

The majority of Eternal Security proponents do not believe in the Bible's full or complete gospel (i.e. the meat of the Word). The second half or truth of the gospel is that Christ died so as to redeem us from all iniquity and so as to live holy and be zealous of good works.

Hebrews 5:9
"And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, NKJV

Ephesians 5:25-27
25 “even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”

Titus 2:14
“Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

Romans 1:16-17 says,
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." NKJV

What is this faith look like?

James 2:17
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”

James 2:24
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

James 2:18
“shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”

Hebrews 9:14
“How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”

Titus 3:8
“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.”

1 Peter 4:1-2
1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God

Colossians 1:21-23
21 “And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.”

Colossians 2:6-7
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in sin the faith,as ye have been taught,”

1 John 1:7
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”


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Kenny'sID said:

OK, the answer is I don't know because your question refers to something someone else is doing or not doing and you did not make me privy to particulars.

But I see how you play the game now....nothing new. I tried to work with you on the question but for some reason you were afraid to do that, and to cover that fact up, you put the blame on me. But now you have your answer and we can move on.

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