The Doctrines Of Grace

Hi, I don't wish to discuss right now, just read. So I was wondering if Tim or any of you others here have anything on the doctrines of grace.

Tim: I read your thesis on in biblical inerrancy, and I enjoyed it. If you have something of similar length for the doctrine of grace, please post.

Also, I was wondering if any of you have read Great Doctrines of The Bible by Evans (published by Moody Press) I'm currently in it now and learning a lot.

Yep...

Doctrines of Grace = T.U.L.I.P

Here is a rebuttal against Hyper Calvinism, which I am not at all partial too.
I wonder sometimes, if they sit in studies, for countless hours, glorying over the fact that they are part of the priesthood of God, as Aaron might have.
Do they spend time actually sharing the gospel, or is it pointless, because everything is predetermined in their eyes.
The main writer of election said this...
1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
19 ¶For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. DO YOU USE PERSUASION IN SHARING THE GOSPEL? PAUL DID.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
24 ¶Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.(GUESS WHICH ONE OF GOD'S ELECT SAID THIS WAS POSSIBLE...THE PREDESTINED ONE.)
Ezekiel 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
10 ¶Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

There is no need to be arrogant about being in the chosen generation, or the royal priesthood. BTW, Peter believed in foreknowledge and being called.

Deuteronomy 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Do you believe that Christians will be free to rebel against God and reject His love once they're in heaven?

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Well, first...God in His omniscience, would not allow them in. I can't see how the redeemed at that point would want to rebel, anyway. We will know, even as we are known. Sons of God... are God's children. We will be ONE, even as the Father and the Son...are one. That is what Jesus said.

In your view, is the Holy Spirit incapable of speaking to a person who is not volitionally "in tune"?

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The Holy spirit is capable of speaking to them...they just won't be receptive. I think the point you are trying to make...is how is it possible for the unregenerated man to even acknowledge God. That DOES take an act of God...but doesn't He work on the hearts of all men. To go overboard and make like there is no part...man's will...takes away our response of...acceptance...and self-chosen ability to LOVE HIM FREELY, IN RESPONSE TO THE ACTIONS, THAT HE HAS INITIATED.
GOD IS THE INITIATOR...WE ARE THE RESPONDERS.
If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't even bother sharing the Gospel...and yes, I use persuasion, evidence that demands a verdict, kindness...as Paul said...all things to all men...that they might be saved.

I haven't seen any hyper-calvinists posting here in a LONG time actually.

If one has the ability to rebel, one has not given themselves completely over to our Lord eh?

TimRout said:

Thank-you brother. You make some interesting points. But I'm not sure you have actually addressed by question. I am not asking if a Christian will WANT to rebel in heaven. I am asking if he will have the ABILITY to rebel...at least theoretically.

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Honestly, it's all too hypothetical for me...by the way...how many angels are there really on the head of a pin.
What we will have... is the ability to act spontaneously, with love, without demand, without schedule...and yes free will...and... Do I believe there will be even a hint of REBELLION?...never...forever.

As for God's omniscience, are you suggesting that God will not permit people into heaven if they still have the capacity to rebel? If this is your argument, I am truly surprised, since that's the classic Calvinist position and you are admittedly not a Calvinist.

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There is nothing Calvinistic about believing in omniscience (foreknowledge). Furthermore, this is questioning that is not realistic...and is leading down the little red lane to where you want to go...Everything has to be done by God...your argument...not so.
If all people have been given grace to believe, yet only some actually come to saving faith in Christ, what is it that brings the redeemed to repentance and faith?
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To counter that. If only those that have been imbued with saving faith, are to be redeemed, then why preach...and why are there...literally hundreds, upon hundreds of exhortations for man to repent...even after believing.
Believing ALL IS GOD ONLY...sounds glorifying...but it leads down the road to a devil...that HE made sin...a world...that HE made fall...and so on...and so on...and that is Hyper-Calvinism...and I want no part of it. It is heresy.
There has to be a two part action. Him...us. Just like a child learning to speak, to walk, to run, etc. I will not go overboard and NOT BELIEVE GOD, is not interested in the salvation of ALL men.(to restate that double-negative. He is interested in the Salvation of ALL men.)That's enough for me.
One last statement. The scriptures are full of occurrences where the LORD "repented" of an evil that He was going to do...so God does change His mind, when WE also repent.

Berean1 said:

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Honestly, it's all too hypothetical for me...by the way...how many angels are there really on the head of a pin.
What we will have... is the ability to act spontaneously, with love, without demand, without schedule...and yes free will...and do I believe, there will be even a hint of it...never...forever.

There is nothing Calvinistic about believing in omniscience (foreknowledge). Furthermore, this is questioning that is not realistic...and is leading down the little red lane to where you want to go...Everything has to be done by God...your argument...not so.
If all people have been given grace to believe, yet only some actually come to saving faith in Christ, what is it that brings the redeemed to repentance and faith?

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To counter that. If only those that have been imbued with saving faith, are to be redeemed, then why preach...and why are there...literally hundreds, upon hundreds of exhortations for man to repent...even after believing.
Believing ALL IS GOD ONLY...sounds glorifying...but it leads down the road to a devil...that HE made sin...a world...that HE made fall...and so on...and so on...and that is Hyper-Calvinism...and I want no part of it. It is heresy.
There has to be a two part action. Him...us. Just like a child learning to speak, to walk, to run, etc. I will not go overboard and NOT BELIEVE GOD, is not interested in the salvation of ALL men.(to restate that double-negative. He is interested in the Salvation of ALL men.)That's enough for me.[/quote]

So, from reading this post, it seems to me that you believe that men/women, are born with "faith".

That is what "enables" their "free will" to decide to accept and believe.

Is this correct?

God Bless

Till all are one.

The reason it is a glory to Sovereign God that we have a free will, is that God could have created creatures that acted like robots to give glory to Him. If any of you have someone that is in love with you...how would you feel if you really found out it was just a computer program, that said I love you, every time it was prompted. God wanted no such design either.
The glory of the the kingdom to come, is that myriad upon myriads of angels and sons of God...will give glory to God...of their own FREE WILL.
GOD created man with FREE WILL. Man did not create man with FREE WILL. GOD actually did something totally amazing...HE created free will creatures with the ability to give glory to Him...or refuse. Which is more glorious...a forced robot...or a free will child of GOD.

Berean1 said:

The reason it is a glory to Sovereign God that we have a free will, is that God could have created creatures that acted like robots to give glory to Him.

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Did you think of that or are you using the same argument that nearly 100% of the Catholic faith and nearly all of those of the Arminian faith use in saying that any other way other than free will would create a civilization of robots?

If any of you have someone that is in love with you...how would you feel if you really found out it was just a computer program, that said I love you, every time it was prompted. God wanted no such design either.

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Again, see the above question.

The glory of the the kingdom to come, is that myriad upon myriads of angels and sons of God...will give glory to God...of their own FREE WILL.

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Please show me this in scripture. Even Jesus said Himself that He was here not to do His will, but the Father's will.

"My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." -Jn. 4:34 (KJV)

"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me." -Jn. 6:38 (KJV)

Jesus was a man just like you and I wasn't He? And if so, Jesus had a so called "free will". Then why is it He said it was His Fathers will that He was sent to do, and not act out of His own "free will"?

GOD created man with FREE WILL. Man did not create man with FREE WILL. GOD actually did something totally amazing...HE created free will creatures with the ability to give glory to Him...or refuse. Which is more glorious...a forced robot...or a free will child of GOD.

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Let me ask you a question. Have you ever studied the topic of "free will"?

Nobody in this thread is arguing that man does not have a "free will". We are, however, arguing that man does not have the same free will that you are espousing. Yes, man does have a free will, but that will is inherantly evil because of Adam's fall and sin. Man of his own free will does not seek after God.

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." -Rom. 3:11 (KJV)

That is, unless you are telling me that Paul is wrong here.

The Bible is very clear that the heart is where all evil comes from. (cf. Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Jer. 17:9; Mt. 15:18-20) The heart is what directs the will. (cf. Jer. 13:23) Man is enslaved to sin. If the heart is wicked, the will is wicked. And it takes a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit to change that evil, wicked heart to one that does seek after God. And the scriptures teach that in the process of regeneration, a new heart is given (Psa. 51:10) When a new heart is given, the will is changed.

So, is it really a "free will" decision to come to God? not according to Psa. 65:4:

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple."

Sorry, I just see it as you do.

God Bless

Till all are one.

If the heart is wicked, the will is wicked. And it takes a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit to change that evil, wicked heart to one that does seek after God. And the scriptures teach that in the process of regeneration, a new heart is given (Psa. 51:10) When a new heart is given, the will is changed.

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I am neither Calvinist...nor arminian...but I do notice an order 1. foreknew 2. predestined 3. called 4. justified
and according to Peter...1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

So I take it that you think after a person has a changed heart that they are no longer capable of being wicked...because you are now chosen and predestined?
Am I reading too much in?
What do you do with this...
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Philippians 2:12 ¶Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (this one's a little out of context... but still related to respect for not falling)
(next the young man living with his father's wife...who was later forgiven)
1 Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
I also notice the chief apostle of election, predestination...seems to have a lot of respect for being...castaway, cut off, turns someone over to satan for the destruction of the flesh so the spirit can be saved. Looks like some "will" stuff in there.
I'll just watch for your calvinist reply?

Do calvinists believe that we have free will in heaven?

Berean1 said:

I am neither Calvinist...nor arminian...but I do notice an order 1. foreknew 2. predestined 3. called 4. justified
and according to Peter...1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

So I take it that you think after a person has a changed heart that they are no longer capable of being wicked...because you are now chosen and predestined?
Am I reading too much in?
What do you do with this...
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Philippians 2:12 ¶Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (this one's a little out of context... but still related to respect for not falling)
(next the young man living with his father's wife...who was later forgiven)
1 Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
I also notice the chief apostle of election, predestination...seems to have a lot of respect for being...castaway, cut off, turns someone over to satan for the destruction of the flesh so the spirit can be saved. Looks like some "will" stuff in there.

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Other than your order, which I believe is wrong, I might ask you, who is it that makes your will willing to do the will of God?

Read Psa. 110:3, for it teaches:

"Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power," -Psa. 110:3 (KJV)

When was God's power revealed to you?

Paul also teaches that it was when you were presented with the Gospel message:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation" -Rom. 1:16 (KJV)

I'll just watch for your calvinist reply?

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Are you trying to goad me? There was absolutely no call for such a remark.

God Bless

Till all are one.

You know what, with the remark you made in your previous post, it would serve no good for me to persue this conversation any further.

I will withdraw from this current discussion.

If anybody else would like to continue, be my guest.

But it is clear, crystal clear, that this is a big waste of time.

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Other than your order, which I believe is wrong, I might ask you, who is it that makes your will willing to do the will of God?

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Romans 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 ¶O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
He does the drawing. We still have a choice. However, it does say not all men have saving faith. I was still looking for a reply on those having once believed...that denied the faith later?(this does relate to predestination and acts of the will). I also would like to know whether Calvinists think we have a free will in heaven?