The Doctrine of "Universalism" (Christian Universalism or Otherwise) True or False? (2)

[SpiritDriven]

I hate to tell you this, that's a flimsy, weak argument right there for several reasons.

Did you hear about what else they weren't being taught? Or is this what you dug out from a longer list?

1) MORALITY ISN'T SALVATION.
2) DEFINE MORALITY if they lack faith in Christ??
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
3) ATHEISTS ARE OFTEN MORAL
4) NO ONE IS GOOD
5) THE PHARISEES WERE MORAL

You're also speculating that they're moral BECUZ OF THIS DOCTRINE not being taught! AND that we don't have higher morals BECUZ OF THIS TEACHING...
Have you actually read studies on why the family is falling apart in Western culture?
It's not the hell doctrine - there are social & economic issues, as well as a DECLINE IN THE INTEREST OF RELIGION altogether.

BINGO Nadine....people are not intrested in God because they are tired of hearing how a God of Love... shuts up men in disobedience... and then puts them on a conveyer belt to a furnace.

They turn away from God and the self righteouse hypocrites who alledgedly represent him.

That is how much damage the Doctrines of Demons have done...

Worse, the majority of people in America don't think they're GOING to hell if they sin becuz they don't think they even sin much... there goes that whole theory.

I'm truly amazed at the lengths you're going to to preach this doctrine with such unfounded, unsupported information - maybe a better word is dismayed.

Dismayed ? you should be horrified at murder of un born children being legal

 

[Rajni]

Yes, it appears that they don't sit down and really read the scriptures and study them, many of them are unchurched and winging it.

[FONT=&quot]Having once been Roman Catholic, I can understand this viewpoint.

It all depends on which persuasion of Christianity one talks to. Roman Catholics would label just about every one of us in this discussion unchurched and winging it for the simple reason that we aren't submitting to Papal authority. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I used to be one of those Catholics, that's why I bring it up so much, lol -- I even once told my husband, who was already a born-again Christian back when we were engaged, that he was going to hell because he had left the Catholic Church...[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Now ... Would any of us here be impressed by a Catholic making such a claim about us? No. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As Lord Byron once wrote, "Christians have burnt each other, quite persuaded that all the apostles would have done as they did."
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So if this claim, were it hurled at one from Catholicism (which claims to be the one and only true church out there in the first place) wouldn't leave one quaking in one's boots, why would it do so coming from any other branch of churchianity?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Being "churched" isn't what guides us into all truth anyway. Scripture indicates that it's the Holy Spirit which does this.

As the saying goes, being in a church no more makes one a Christian than being in a garage makes one a car. The assumption that church-membership is superior in improving one's spiritual fitness, to the exclusion of all other means, is as unfounded as the assumption that gym-membership is superior in improving one's physical fitness, to the exclusion of all other means. There are many physically fit people out there who don't go to a gym, and there are many spiritually fit people out there who don't go to a church. [/FONT]

The Lord is my Shepherd, therefore no other shepherd need apply for the job.

 

[Phinehas2]

I find it quiet amazing SpiritDriven should post this

No one speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it.

to Nadiine when she has quoted what seems like half the Bible to him.

 

[Nadiine]

[FONT=&quot]Having once been Roman Catholic, I can understand this viewpoint. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It all depends on which persuasion of Christianity one talks to. Roman Catholics would label just about every one of us in this discussion unchurched and winging it for the simple reason that we aren't submitting to Papal authority. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I used to be one of those Catholics, that's why I bring it up so much, lol -- I even once told my husband, who was already a born-again Christian back when we were engaged, that he was going to hell because he had left the Catholic Church...[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Now ... Would any of us here be impressed by a Catholic making such a claim about us? No. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As Lord Byron once wrote, "Christians have burnt each other, quite persuaded that all the apostles would have done as they did." [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So if this claim, were it hurled at one from Catholicism (which claims to be the one and only true church out there in the first place) wouldn't leave one quaking in one's boots, why would it do so coming from any other branch of churchianity?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Being "churched" isn't what guides us into all truth anyway. Scripture indicates that it's the Holy Spirit which does this. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As the saying goes, being in a church no more makes one a Christian than being in a garage makes one a car. The assumption that church-membership is superior in improving one's spiritual fitness, to the exclusion of all other means, is as unfounded as the assumption that gym-membership is superior in improving one's physical fitness, to the exclusion of all other means. There are many physically fit people out there who don't go to a gym, and there are many spiritually fit people out there who don't go to a church. [/FONT]

The Lord is my Shepherd, therefore no other shepherd need apply for the job.

Well, then I guess Peter wasn't called to "feed Jesus' sheep" then either?

God appoints and ordains teachers & evangelists to us that He has gifted to teach & lead His flock (in His physical absence). (eph. 4:11)

This is part of the problem today, people are independantly self taught, and going their own ways in the postmodern society we're in... I personally find it's a form of rebellion (but that's for another topic).

Being churched is very important - Christ initiated & established it thru Paul in starting small home-based churches that grew in number.
He called the Temple His father's "house of prayer" & was zealous for it's integrity.

There's no "assumption" made by us that membership makes someone "superior" (which is a straw man here), there are decent reasons for memberships, but many churches don't even have membership.
My non denom. church offers a membership, but I haven't joined and don't feel any need to as of yet and they don't push it as an issue; it's just made available.


What should make people 'quake in their boots', IS GOD'S TRUTH IN SCRIPTURE which is spelled right out for us repeatedly (and by Jesus).

Luke 12:5
4"I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!


Mark 9:43
" If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

Matthew 23:33
"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?


Matthew 5:22
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ' You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

 

[Zecryphon]

If anyone wants to see eisegesis of Jonah, I recommend they start by looking at post #316.





Either you came up with a weird eisegesis about what Jonah says the king of Nineveh did, or you were just being dishonest. Why should I trust that your interpretation is better than mine?

I said the people repented on their own and word of that repentance spread to the king and the king then issued a decree. What is unclear to you?

 

[Joykins]

Did you read just before that? Do you not know that the Church is there before the Tribulation?

Where is the verse that says that?

At any rate, the martyrs of the Tribulation are the rulers, not the Church in general.

 

[Nadiine]

I find it quiet amazing SpiritDriven should post this
to Nadiine when she has quoted what seems like half the Bible to him.

Ya I know... and I told spirit several times that I'm not rejecting the verses given to me - I'm rejecting the SPIN cast onto them to make them say what they don't & manipulate them into another doctrine they don't fit into.

Not to mention the continual refusal to answer my questions. I'd easily drop the questions, but spirit keeps using the same argument (by using new verses similar to Rom. 9) of God's will.... if he's going to keep touting the same argument by switching to different verses, I'll keep asking the same questions.

I already AGREE with all the verses ! I'm simply saying God has more than one type of will that He operates by. And humans have it as well.

And again, all that does is lend credence to Calvanists!.. Calvanists agree God chooses people who will be saved (JUST NOT ALL PEOPLE).
It still doesn't support universalism.

 

[Nadiine]

Dismayed ? you should be horrified at murder of un born children being legal

You assume I'm NOT horrified?

But if GOD wills it, why should we be horrified? God wants that to happen, don't YOU want what HE wills???


And if God wills something HORRIFIC, (like abortion), then why is it impossible that God can will to allow the unrepentant not to be saved??

I'm confused.

 

[CaDan]

Hugz Break!

 

[Joykins]

I said the people repented on their own and word of that repentance spread to the king and the king then issued a decree. What is unclear to you?

I guess it is because the passage can also be interpreted that the people repented because the king issued the decree?

5So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

6For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: 8But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.

Young's literal:

5And the men of Nineveh believe in God, and proclaim a fast, and put on sackcloth, from their greatest even unto their least,
6seeing the word doth come unto the king of Nineveh, and he riseth from his throne, and removeth his honourable robe from off him, and spreadeth out sackcloth, and sitteth on the ashes, 7and he crieth and saith in Nineveh by a decree of the king and his great ones, saying, `Man and beast, herd and flock -- let them not taste anything, let them not feed, even water let them not drink;

 

[shepsgirl]

I guess it is because the passage can also be interpreted that the people repented because the king issued the decree?



Young's literal:

You think God didn't know whether their repentence was heartfelt or just an order from the king? The old testament has many verses that show God's anger at people when they worship, fast, and repent in ways that aren't sincere.

 

[Tavita]

You think God didn't know whether their repentence was heartfelt or just an order from the king? The old testament has many verses that show God's anger at people when they worship, fast, and repent in ways that aren't sincere.

It sort of goes along with the concept of God showing the Pastor first before passing it along to the congregation. When I was in a particular denomination, we were always taught that when God wants to do something in the midst of the congregation He will show His leaders first. It's more or less the same concept.

 

[Joykins]

You think God didn't know whether their repentence was heartfelt or just an order from the king? The old testament has many verses that show God's anger at people when they worship, fast, and repent in ways that aren't sincere.

No, I just think it's unclear which came first and which was the original impetus.

 

[Tavita]

Actually another statement could be given about them according to some

1 Timothy 4:1
[ Apostasy ] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

or

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

Merely your opinion.

 

[Rajni]

And if God wills something HORRIFIC, (like abortion), then why is it impossible that God can will to allow the unrepentant not to be saved??

The difference I see is that the one horror is temporary and the other just goes on and on and on ...

It reminds me of Isaiah 45:7 (which I think could support either side of this debate) where God says,

"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."
The King James Version uses an even stronger word in this verse for "distaster": "evil".

According to my Strong's, the original word is "ra`":

"from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):
KJV-- adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st), wretchedness, wrong. [Incl. feminine ra` ah; as adjective or noun.]."
​

Just like a painting that's still a work in progress, every brush-stroke that makes up this thing called life is from God Himself, and only in the end when we can all step back and take a look at the finished Masterpiece from a proper distance will we see just what He was trying to accomplish.

 

[Tavita]

Jesus understood the subject of his parables and also his audience.

Matthew 13:10-17
10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" 11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.' 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

It doesn't always mean that unbelievers can never understand His parables. However, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus was directed towards the Pharisee's, the religious leaders of the day.

 

[Nadiine]

It sort of goes along with the concept of God showing the Pastor first before passing it along to the congregation. When I was in a particular denomination, we were always taught that when God wants to do something in the midst of the congregation He will show His leaders first. It's more or less the same concept.

That makes some sense... it reminds me of the concept we see in the NT when it speaks about Gentiles first accepting Christ and then their whole households.

Nothing I've put to study, but it might be interesting to check into.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I was reading about James Dobson not long ago.... he is one of these preachers that wants to save the world from everlasting burning in hell.

He was gonna change the world until they got their detailed research back....

Apparently in the 3rd world countries and other countries where the doctrine of Eternal Torment is not taught...they had the highest moral and family values.

It was in Western Society where the Doctrine of Eternal torment was most heavily taught, that is sinking into Moral decay...legislating to allow abortion, prostitution, homosexuality.

That is what happens to societies where Doctrines of Demons are taught...like Eternal Torment and Free Will.

That is silly. Prove it! There are far more serious implications than that!

I suppose the higher colorectal cancer here is because of the same doctrines?

 

[Floatingaxe]

I am not the source of all Good and Evil Nadine...perhaps you should take your complaint to him...

Sidestepping.

 

[Rajni]

My non denom. church offers a membership, but I haven't joined and don't feel any need to as of yet and they don't push it as an issue; it's just made available.

That's cool. I think as a Christian you are already a member of the church in every way that matters (at least, that's the way I've always viewed the membership thing).

Please know that my particular take on all that (which, you're right, is for another thread) is heavily based on what I've had the dubious honor of experiencing in churches I've been to in the past. Am I carrying some baggage from it? Heck, yeah -- No doubt about that at all!

What's killing me right now is that there's a site just down the street from where I live where a church is going to be built. Right down the street. We could walk to church! Does that rock or what?

At first, I was thrilled when I saw the sign announcing construction of it. And then it occurred to me, "Ah-ah-ah, you're not doing church anymore, remember?"

Drat! Still, the proximity of it could be a sign from above ... If this is a hint from God, I should take it as such lest He find it necessary to drop the next church building smack dab into my backyard to get my attention, LOL!

Life's a trip!