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I really hate when I have to try to defend someone elses position....Well, unfortunately, the only scripture I can give you is (Revelation 21:1) And, tell you that as I commune with Jesus, he is speaking things to me, to the Holy Spirit in me that is telling me these things which I believe are these thing spoken of in (John 21:25) and in (Revelation 22:10) (Daniel 12:9)...
see above...Unfortunately the Bible doesn't say more on this than that, Just like it doesn't go into detail about the "deep things of Satan" it also doesn't tell us the "deep details about Hell" either...
Now, if you, and the reason I asked you, could present scripture to refute or is contrary to what I said, then, great, I'm wrong, I can abandon the line of reasoning and move on to something else, however, if you can't, then, I think I'm gonna "roll with it" for now, unless I learn otherwise in the future...
God Bless!
Then you still don't understand.
Limitless punishment is by definition utterly disproportionate to limited sinning.
actually, you just argued that the sentence structure just confirmed that man is three parts...otherwise it would not be written as it is.Neither of those passages say that those are parts of man. That is being imposed on the text. If Paul has said, I pray your soul, body, and clothing, would be kept from destruction, would you argue that your clothing is part of man? I don't think you would make that argument. This shows that the sentence structure doesn't require that these are a part of man.
so, you really believe that God doesn't know the science of the world He created? I beg to differ with you on this topic. I think God absolutely knows the science of the world He created and if scripture is God breathed as I believe it is, then God will work with a correct understanding of science not a warped or missing one.The Scriptures weren't written to people who had modern science. God gave them to people and expected them to understand what He was saying. So, trying to compare modern science to something written thousands of years ago is comparing apples and oranges.
I still haven't heard an explanation for how something that is the same can be divided and separated from one another.There is no implication and I didn't give an interpretation. I stated just what the passage says. On the contrary, you gave the interpretation that it's talking about thinking with your soul. That is contrary to Scripture.
Now, I am answering solely for myself here even though this is directed at another poster. If, the argument for body, soul, and spirit is coming from Gen. as you assert here, why were the reasons and evidence provided from different passages? Gen. supports the other view, but that wasn't the evidence provided. So where is the comprehension in what is being said about the topic?
Firstly the "us" there is a Majestic Plural. However, just because God is spirit that doesn't necessitate that that is what God meant. God also is love. Is man love? It's doubtful when you look at all of the killing he does. Again, the point is that the idea is being imposed on the text. God said, 'let us make man in our image." It's then inferred that because God is spirit it must mean that man is spirit. No, doesn't have to mean that just because God is spirit that He means that man is spirit. That is an assumption. God didn't expound on what He meant when He said 'let us make man in our image".
it is convenient that you refuse to address how to reconcile the passages I presented against your opinions then make accusations like this....convenient but false.The problem is the presuppositions we bring to the text. The passages you're posting don't say that there are three parts to man. You already believe that so when you see those passages you believe that that's what they are saying. Look for a single passage of Scripture that says there are three parts to man or that man is a spirit. You won't find any such thing in the Scriptures. You'll find passages that say your spirit or the spirit in man, but that doesn't necessitate that the spirit is the man. We know that there is a spirit in man because we saw that in Gen 2:7 it is God's. The words your and you are different. You denotes who you are, your denotes what is in your possession or is associated with you. So, when we see in Scripture "your spirit" we know that it is spirit that we are in possession of or associated with. Again, that is God's breath or spirit of life that He gives to every living thing.
three things 1. I find it interesting that you say "after looking at some good studies on this..." these are man's words not scripture. Some such studies are good, some not so much.I find it interesting that I am 68 years old and did not realize there were Christian groups who do not believe that Hell is eternal but is rather an "unquenchable fire" that totally annihilates the unbeliever. First of all, I know that JW's have their own view on Hell and I'm not a JW! I have concluded however after looking at some good studies on this that Hell is not eternal torment and that the very few verses that "sound like" Hell is eternal are either parables of Jesus or a picture of being lost (such as in Revelation). I won't even attempt to list all the scriptures and words associated with Hell but it has always been very hard for me to believe that God would find it necessary to punish souls for eternity simply because they chose not to receive eternal life. In my prayers I have many times brought this up to God and asked why it would be necessary for unbelievers to suffer for eternity. Now, I am convinced that somewhere along the line, not long after the early church, that the idea of an eternal Hell was introduced as a way of frightening people into becoming a part of the church. In the studies of the various words used for "Hell" it becomes apparent to me that 90%+ of the Bible is clearly talking about the grave and unconsciousness. Why would 90%+ of the Bible use a word that is not about eternal torment and then suddenly Jesus changes the meaning of the word? The answer is that Jesus did NOT change the meaning, he was simply speaking in parables in order to hide the true meaning from the Pharisees or whoever else had their own beliefs about death, eternity, and Hell.
wait...I have done this and no one challenges it, not even you...so let's try again...One of the biggest problems with ECT (Eternal Concious Torment) is that nobody can explain the morality or goodness behind it. They just essentially say, "GOD and His Word is the reason" and that is it. But God's Word is interpreted in many ways. The true understanding of God's Word should line up with what is truly loving and good (in regards to fair justice). Most ECT Proponents say we cannot know His Judgment (when it comes to ECT).
But Proverbs says,
"Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path."
(Proverbs 2:9).
...
this is the very kind of non sense that causes more harm than good when we get our teaching of hell fire out of whack with the way Christ taught hell fire. IOW's the problem here isn't so much about hell fire belief but how it is not consistent with the way scripture teaches and uses hell to teach us about God.We used to receive regular visits from this lady who tried to intimidate my parents into church attendance via shouting threats of hell. What really impressed me was the furious anger displayed as she spoke about us being roasted alive forever unless we attended services. For some reason my child mind just couldn't reconcile that display as representative of a loving God.
and yet you have not challenged my claims of consequence either...What is really strange about hellifirists is that they totally ignore the innate immoral nature of the punishment itself and glibly attempt to justify it based on power and creatorship two premises which are seriously are flawed.
which leaves the question what debt is owed?Matthew 18:34
"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him."
First, the verse says "tormentors" and not "torturers" in the KJV (Which I believe is God's final Word of authority).
Second, the tormentors did not torment this person for all eternity. The second half of this verse says that they would be tormented until he paid all that was due.
...
Jason0047 said:One of the biggest problems with ECT (Eternal Concious Torment) is that nobody can explain the morality or goodness behind it. They just essentially say, "GOD and His Word is the reason" and that is it. But God's Word is interpreted in many ways. The true understanding of God's Word should line up with what is truly loving and good (in regards to fair justice). Most ECT Proponents say we cannot know His Judgment (when it comes to ECT).
But Proverbs says,
"Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path."
(Proverbs 2:9).
That is like saying God should love the fallen
angels. They made their choice. Now God will
judge them without mercy.
which leaves the question what debt is owed?
I asked this question previously and got no answer, who decides the length of time that is owed? How do we know how long we will suffer? Where is the guidelines for what is and is not punishable for eternity?
maybe, just maybe because that is NOT what God is saying to us...just a thought, I mean if this isn't what God is saying why would someone else saying it be okay? I don't know... you can explain
(See post #891) For the very obvious reason that God isn't anyone's boyfriend. I take it you are oblivious to the enormous category error you've just made here? You wouldn't have posted this silly graphic if you were.
Oh, and while I believe quite thoroughly in ECT, I don't think the punishment is "beautiful." What is beautiful is, though, is God's perfect justice meted out upon human depravity.
Selah.
Do I like the idea that the wicked will be tormented for ever and ever, and we seem to have to watch this at times? No.
The church is his bride and will,be treated and rewarded as such. The wicked, who have rejected the sacrifice of Jesus will be punished for the atrocity.That is totally contradictory. You said the punishment is not beautiful but God's perfect justice being meted out on depraved humans is beautiful? That is saying the same thing. Oh, and how exactly is it beautiful to torture people alive for all eternity? Can you honestly say it is beautiful to hear the screams from the old lady down the street in hell? God's Word says, "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? " (Ezekiel 18:23).
The key word here is... "die."
Not eternal torture in flames.
As for God being our spouse or loved one: Well, Scripture says the church (i.e. God's people) is His bride.
...
The church is his bride and will,be treated and rewarded as such. The wicked, who have rejected the sacrifice of Jesus will be punished for the atrocity.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
inherit the kingdom/the new earth is coming
Those still alive must get divided up - as to the nations.
wheat/tares...chaff
sheep/goats
wise virgins/foolish virgins
Time for there to no longer be any wicked people left on
the earth or to die the first death.
1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
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