The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

mark kennedy · Sep 15, 2016

razzelflabben said:
I think the point is that in the passage in question they will not have rest day or night...for those who claim that there will be partial consciousness or something like that (in enough pain at the moment I forget the term) this passage would seem to disagree. What is intended by rest we do not know apart from they have none. If we equate rest to the Sabbath, it would be to rest from their labor, or quest for gain, which doesn't seem to fit any of the passages we are talking about.

Interesting...thanks

Jason0047 said:
As for entering into the Lord's rest in relation to the wicked being destroyed: Well, the type of rest here is speaking figuratively and not literally. Believers will not be literally sleeping the whole time in Abraham's bosom (Which is obvious because of Luke 16:19-31). The comparison is only made so as to illustrate how we will be comforted in abiding in Christ for all time. Entering into God's rest was not meant to be taken as wooden literalism. The wicked will be destroyed.

The rest of the Sabbath is found only with God, they are eternally separated, there is no rest for the wicked. Even when they are not working, even when they are not moving, even when they are not thinking, there is no rest. I'm not saying I have this nailed down, just saying it's how I'm looking at the phrasing.

razzelflabben · Sep 15, 2016

mark kennedy said:
The rest of the Sabbath is found only with God, they are eternally separated, there is no rest for the wicked. Even when they are not working, even when they are not moving, even when they are not thinking, there is no rest. I'm not saying I have this nailed down, just saying it's how I'm looking at the phrasing.

amen...kind of like, eternally separated from God

Bible Highlighter · Sep 15, 2016

mark kennedy said:
The martyrs beneath the alter are the victims of the Antichrist's initial rampage.

All evil will be eradicated sometime before the start of the new heavens and new earth as mentioned in Revelation. The actual Day of the Lord is the actual return, it happens at the end of the Tribulation:

He is clothed in a robe dipped blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule" them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. (Rev. 19:13-16)

That sword, the word used for sword there isn't the standard issue double edge sword all Roman soldiers had. It was double edge but like four feet long, it was used with great effect against advancing infantry. The enemies of Rome were terrified of it. It was called the rhomphaia (G4501 ῥομφαία)

I'm pretty much convinced that the new heavens and the new earth isn't the entire universe. It looks like the six day creation done a second time, this time it's permanent and perfect.

Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. (Rom. 12:19)

First century Christians did not take revenge, in fact, they believed that their persecutors we victims of a delusion. Those who slaughter this group are not given that consideration, they are children of perdition slaughtering out of a lust for bloody violence. God's response is interesting:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Rev. 6:10-11)

Fellow servants? I have always wonder who are the tribulation saints, it seems to me, they are those who reject the Antichrist and turn to God. They have their testimony, they witness to God's sovereign power just as the prophets and apostles did before them.

The way I organize the Revelation is seven seals, seven trumpets and seven vials of wrath. This approach divides them into three groups of seven chapters.

Seals

1) The Revelation of the Son of Man
2) 7 Letters to the 7 Churches
3) 7 Letters continued
4) 7 Lamps of fire (Menorah)
5) 7 Seals to be opened by the Lamb
6) 7 Seals opened, S-1 (seal one) thru S-5
7) The 144,000 sealed, the world hides from the Lamb
Trumpets

8) S-7 Silence, Trumpets sounded (T-1 thru T4)
9) T-5 Locusts, T-6 Euphrates
10) The Angel and the Little Book
11) The Two Witnesses clothed in sackcloth
12) The Woman, Child, Dragon
13) The Beast of the Land and the Beast of the Sea
14) 3 Angels proclaim: 144,000, Gospel, Wrath on 666
Vials of Wrath

15) 7 Angels given the 7 Vials of Wrath
16) Vials of Wrath: V-1 thru V-7
17) Babylon and the Beast with 7 heads
18) The wine of the wrath of her fall
19) The wedding feast of the Lamb
20) The Dragon bound 1,000 years
21) The New Jerusalem
Eternal State

22) The Healing of the Nations

The chronology is pretty easy to discern. The tribulation starts with the opening of the first seal so we know when that happens. The drama of the Two Witnesses unfolds about the middle, we know that because it says they witness for 3 1/2 years and the seventh trumpet sounds at the end of their witness. The vials come right at the end, they survive the vials and are gathering for the final battle they think they are going to win, it's over in an instant. Scene of the Beast rising out of a sea of humanity with Babylon sitting on it's back drinking the blood of the saints is between the last trumpet and the first vial, a space of 2 to 3 years. They spend that time having these big assemblies and hunting down anyone who will not take the mark.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev. 20:10)

I have differed to the simplicity of the language, John's writings are the simplest in the New Testament. However the antecedent of day and night, forever and ever is clearly tormented.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I will give you my Chronology of the End Times (using Scripture) in another thread.
This will address the period of time known as the "Day of the Lord."

....

Der Alte · Sep 15, 2016

Jason0047 said:
The richman cried out because Abraham was on the other side of the great gulf and he obviously wanted to gain his attention and be heard. It does not say he cried out in pain or that he was screaming or anything. You have to add that to the text (Which is not there).
Also, in verse 24, the rich-man says, for I am tormented in this flame" (Luke 16:24).

I have added nothing "I am tormented in this flame" certainly seems to refer to pain.

Is it a coincidence that the first appearance of the English word "this" in the Bible is used such a way as a reference to somebody in front of them?
"And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man" (Genesis 2:23).
Obviously Adam was not talking about his own flesh and bones alone but he was referring to Eve who was in front of him. In other words, the first appearance of the word "this" in the Bible was used in such a way that refers to something or someone in front of the individual speaking. This is rather interesting. For it is just as possible that the rich-man could have been referring to a flame that was in front of him. "This" flame (that was in front of him) would have logically been in the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham. For hell is described as an island in Scripture.

A Hebrew word spoken in the 3rd-4th millennium BC is not the accepted way of determining the meaning of a Greek word in the first century. Was Adam "in" the bones when he said that? "In this flame" does not mean "behind this flame." The native Greek speaking early church fathers understood that the rich man was being literally tormented in flames. Where is hell described as an island?

Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1 Chaper 11
Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.] Part First
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary?
The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue.

Finite imperfect reasoning? I do not see anywhere in Scripture whereby God's people had any trouble trying to explain God's good ways or fair justice. Surely the issue of debate would have been brought up at some point in the Scriptures of the New Testament, but we do not see anything about it. That is because most believers or followers of Christ perfectly understood that there was no Eternal Torment back then. They did not have to explain the obvious injustice behind such a concept or belief.

Please show me from scripture where "most believers or followers of Christ perfectly understood that there was no Eternal Torment back then." The teaching of Jesus and John in Revelation shows a concept of eternal punishment.

God is not the author of confusion. His good ways and fair judgments can be explained.
Yes. Jesus said fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both the body and the soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 10:28). If the destruction of the body is referring to the end of one's physical body, then it is logical to assume that the body and soul in the following words is referring to a complete destruction, as well.

That you disagree with the interpretation of others does not make it confusion.

Parables or real world examples (physical truth) are about illustrating spiritual truth. For example: The Cannaanite woman was able to expound upon Jesus's parable with a parable of her own (that complimented Jesus's parable). Did Jesus criticize her? No. He commended her for her great faith in making a real world example or physical truth, which lines up with spiritual truth. She said even the dogs eat the crumbs from the table. This is a physical truth. Yet, it illustrates also a spiritual reality or truth, as well. The fact, that ECT cannot be made into a real world parable should give you pause. Anyways, paying up to the last penny is talking about fair justice. We know God is fair in what He does.

This ramble does not address my question. It is true that it is virtually impossible to use any real world event to portray anything about eternity. But Jesus used parables to explain ECT.

Matthew 13:40-42
(40) As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.
(41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,
(42) and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. [See also Matthew 13:50, Matthew 24:51, Matthew 22:11-13, Luke 12:28.

But what type of everlasting punishment is being referred to in Matthew 25:46?
2 Thessalonians 1:9 gives us the answer. For it says,
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." (2 Thessalonians 1:9).
Everlasting destruction. That is the everlasting punishment that is being referred to here. Destruction. When I destroy something it meets destruction. It is ruined, and made into something that it wasn't before.

Something or someone that has been destroyed, i.e. no longer exists, cannot be “from the presence of the Lord” or anything else. The word translated “destroyed” in this verse is “apolummi”. It occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings. Note the last in the list the prodigal son, in Luke 15;24, was ἀπόλλυμι/apolummi but was found. Apolummi is translated lost in that verse.

(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

Bible Highlighter · Sep 15, 2016

mark kennedy said:
The rest of the Sabbath is found only with God, they are eternally separated, there is no rest for the wicked. Even when they are not working, even when they are not moving, even when they are not thinking, there is no rest. I'm not saying I have this nailed down, just saying it's how I'm looking at the phrasing.

The rest is knowing GOD and His love and peace by us doing what He commands of us. The rest is figurative. The wicked do not have this figurative rest because they do not know God. The wicked will be destroyed and erased from existence with most of them never knowing what this rest is like.

...

jeager016 · Sep 15, 2016

razzelflabben said:
amen...kind of like, eternally separated from God

That's the way I see it also and have read that in many publications.
Hell is forever separated from God.
Awful.

razzelflabben · Sep 15, 2016

jeager016 said:
That's the way I see it also and have read that in many publications.
Hell is forever separated from God.
Awful.

that is a hell I cannot even fathom at this point in my life and understanding.

mark kennedy · Sep 15, 2016

Jason0047 said:
I will give you my Chronology of the End Times (using Scripture) in another thread.
This will address the period of time known as the "Day of the Lord."

....

That's what I was thinking, a chronology of the tribulation and the day of the Lord is a topic in itself.

jeager016 · Sep 15, 2016

razzelflabben said:
that is a hell I cannot even fathom at this point in my life and understanding.

Yes and I can't either.
Ergo why it's called Hell.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 15, 2016

Der Alter said:
I have added nothing "I am tormented in this flame" certainly seems to refer to pain.

Yes, it does. The rich-man is tormented by the HEAT of the flame that is in front of him (within the great gulf between him and Abraham).
I mean, stop and think for a moment. Have you ever been burned by fire before? Sure is painful. Isn't it? Now, I want you to imagine being in the shoes of a person that was engulfed in flames and then imagine somebody coming up to you and trying to carry on a normal conversation with you while you are lit up like the human torch. Do you think you could talk all calm and cool during all that? I don't think so.

Der Altar said:
A Hebrew word spoken in the 3rd-4th millennium BC is not the accepted way of determining the meaning of a Greek word in the first century. Was Adam "in" the bones when he said that? "In this flame" does not mean "behind this flame." The native Greek speaking early church fathers understood that the rich man was being literally tormented in flames.

Hstory is written by men (that cannot be trusted).
God's Word is written by God (Which can be trusted).
So the key here is to compare Scripture with Scripture.
Not sure if you ever heard of the Law of First Mention in the Bible, but again, the first appearance of the English word "this" is used in such a way to refer to somebody in front of the individual speaking. Granted, not every appearance of the word "this" is used in this way but it does set a pattern thru out Scripture (especially with other words I have studied).

Der Altar said:
Where is hell described as an island?

Hell (hades) is sort of like an island sitting atop of the Lake of Fire. For the Earth's core is like a big fiery hot ball. The great gulf is an opening or crack in Hell's surface letting some of the flame from below (in the Lake of Fire) to show. This was the flame (in the great gulf) that was in front of the rich-man whereby he was being tormented by the heat of such a flame.

Deuteronomy 32:22
"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, [i.e. the Lake of Fire] and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.[i.e. hell]"

The lowest Hell is the Lake of Fire. For the English word Hell can be translated as Gehenna in the Greek within the New Testament, which means Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:14 says hell or hades is cast into the Lake of Fire. So what will happen is that island known as hell will either fall down into the Lake of Fire or the Lake of Fire will overflow the island of hell.

Isaiah 34:14
"The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, [i.e. hell] and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest."

The wild beasts, the satyr, and the screech owl in this passage are demons. The wild beasts of the island are those demons on the island of Hell.

Der Altar said:
Please show me from scripture where "most believers or followers of Christ perfectly understood that there was no Eternal Torment back then." The teaching of Jesus and John in Revelation shows a concept of eternal punishment.

"Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body..." (Matthew 10:28)

"There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy…" (James 4:12)

"...who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Timothy 1:10)

Philippians 3:19 - Whose end is destruction.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.
Hebrews 10:39 - We are not of them who draw back unto perdition (Greek: "destruction").

Here is a list of verses compiled by another another proponent of Conditional Immortality.

Gen. 2:17; 3:19; 3:22; 6:5-7; 6:13; 6:17; 9:6; 19:13; 20:7; 38:7
Exod. 4:23; 12:15; 12:19; 19:12-13; 21:12; 21:14; 21:15; 12:16; 12:17; 21:12; 21:15; 21:16; 21:17; 21:29; 22:18; 22:19; 22:20; 22:22-24; 28:35; 30:33; 30:38; 31:14-15; 32:9-14; 32:27-28; 32:33; 32:35; 33:3; 33:5; 35:2
Lev. 17:4; 17:9; 17:14; 18:29; 19:8; 20:2; 20:5; 20:9; 20:10; 20:11; 20:12; 20:13; 20:15; 20:16; 20:17; 20:18; 20:27; 22:3; 22:9; 23:29-30; 24:16; 24:17; 24:21; 26:22; 26:30; 26:38; 27:29
Num. 1:51; 3:10; 3:38; 4:15; 4:19-20; 9:13; 14:35; 15:30-31; 15:35-36; 17:10; 17:13; 18:3; 18:7; 18:22; 18:32; 19:13; 19:20; 21:6; 26:10; 26:61; 26:65; 27:3; 32:13; 35:16-21; 35:30; 35:31
Deut. 2:15; 4:3; 4:26; 7:4; 7:10; 8:19-20; 9:8; 9:14; 9:19; 9:20; 9:25-26; 10:10; 11:17; 13:5; 13:9-10; 17:5; 17:7; 17:12; 18:20; 19:12; 21:21; 22:21-22; 22:24-25; 24:7; 24:16; 28:20; 28:22; 28:24; 28:45; 28:48; 28:51; 28:61;28:63; 30:15; 30:18-19; 32:39
Josh. 1:18; 23:15-16
1 Sam. 2:25; 2:33-34; 25:37-38
2 Sam. 6:7; 12:13-14
1 Kgs 14:10; 20:42; 21:21
2 Kgs 9:8; 14:6
1 Chron. 2:3; 10:13-14; 13:10
2 Chron. 13:20; 25:4; Job 4:8-9; 27:8; 34:10-15; 36:5-12
Ps. 1:6; 2:12; 34:16; 34:21; 37:9; 37:20; 37:22; 37:28; 37:34; 37:38; 49:12; 55:23; 73:18; 73:27; 78:50; 82:6-7; 92:9
Prov. 2:22; 15:10; 19:9; 19:16; 21:28
Isa. 10:22-23; 11:4; 13:6; 14:22; 14:30; 27:1; 28:18; 28:22; 29:20; 34:3; 41:11; 47:11; 51:6; 53:8; 60:12; 65:15; 66:16; 66:24
Jer. 5:6; 11:21-22; 15:3; 21:8; 25:33; 28:16; 31:30; 44:7
Lam. 2:21; 3:43
Ezek. 3:18-20; 6:4-7; 14:13-21; 18:4; 18:13; 18:18-20; 18:24; 18:26; 18:31; 33:8-18
Hos. 8:4; 7:13; 10:15; 13:14
Obad. 1:10
Mic. 6:16
Zeph. 1:3
Mt. 3:10; 5:25-26; 7:13; 7:19; 7:26-27; 8:12-13; 10:29; 11:23; 15:4; 15:13; 16:25-26; 17:6; 18:34-35; 21:33-44; 22:7; 24:37-41
Mk 7:10; 8:35-37; 12:1-9
Lk. 3:9; 6:49; 9:24-25; 10:15; 12:20; 12:58-59; 13:1-5; 13:6-9; 14:34-35; 17:1-2; 17:23; 17:27; 19:27; 20:9-18
Jn 3:16; 3:35; 5:24; 6:50; 8:21; 8:24; 10:28; 12:25; 15:6
Acts 13:40-41
Rom. 1:32; 2:6-12; 5:12-14; 5:17-18; 6:16; 6:21; 6:23; 7:5; 8:6; 8:12-13; 9:27-29; 13:4
1 Cor. 3:16-17; 10:1-12; 10:8-12; 2:15-16; 4:3
Phil. 3:19
1 Thess. 5:3
2 Thess. 2:8-10; 6:9
Heb. 3:12-17; 10:26-31; 10:39; 12:9; 12:25-27
Jas 1:9-11; 4:14-15; 5:5; 5:19-20
1 Pet. 1:9; 1:24-25
2 Pet. 2:1-4; 2:4-10; 2:12-13; 3:7
1 Jn 2:15-17; 3:14; 5:11-13
Jude 1:5; 1:20-23
Rev. 2:7; 2:11; 2:26-28; 6:9-17; 11:19; 13:9-10; 14:18-20; 18:21; 19:21; 21:8.

The verse numbers that are in bold are key passages in support of Conditional Immortality.

Source:
http://www.rethinkinghell.com/forum...sages-threaten-the-unrepentant-with-death#973

Der Altar said:
That you disagree with the interpretation of others does not make it confusion.

The creation is orderly and logical because God is orderly and logical.
If ECT cannot be explained morally in accordance to God's creation, then it is not logical or true.

Der Altar said:
This ramble does not address my question. It is true that it is virtually impossible to use any real world event to portray anything about eternity. But Jesus used parables to explain ECT.

Matthew 13:40-42
(40) As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.
(41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,
(42) and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. [See also Matthew 13:50, Matthew 24:51, Matthew 22:11-13, Luke 12:28.

The Bible is not written in chronological order. But even if it was, the weeping and gnashing of teeth could be done a few minutes after they are cast into the fire shortly before they are destroyed or erased from existence. Jesus says fear the one who can destroy both SOUL and BODY in hell (i.e. Gehenna, i.e. the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 10:28).

Der Altar said:
Something or someone that has been destroyed, i.e. no longer exists, cannot be “from the presence of the Lord” or anything else. The word translated “destroyed” in this verse is “apolummi”. It occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings. Note the last in the list the prodigal son, in Luke 15;24, was ἀπόλλυμι/apolummi but was found. Apolummi is translated lost in that verse.

(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

It says they were destroyed away from the presence of the Lord. It's not talking about the after-math.

...

mmksparbud · Sep 15, 2016

razzelflabben said:
I was all ready to hit the like button until this last part here...as per the discussions on this thread, the question in Matthew 10:28 was not soul but what destruction means. IOW's you are twisting the discussion to make a point which is invalid.

Oh, baloney---for crying out loud, He just said don't worry about those who can Kill your body--but not your soul---the heart belongs to God, the martyrs loose their lives, but they are still the Lords. To think He then changes the meaning of what He is saying to beware of those who can not only kill the body but also those who can also destroy (but not actually kill the soul) makes absolutely no sense and it is definitely twisting things around to avoid facing the obvious.

razzelflabben said:
your right, you haven't been shown one verse that says we have an immortal soul, you have been shown many...whether you have seen them or not is up to you and your willingness to see. Here is the point...both sides should be able to admit that there are scriptures to defend both positions, to deny this is a falsehood. The question is not if the passages exist or not, they do and all of us who are honest about the topic will confess this, the question is what position reconciles all of the passages into one understanding, for therein is the intent of God in telling us about hell and the soul/spirit of man.

No you have not shown one single verse that says we have an immortal soul. You twisted things to make it seem it has to be that, but not one verse says we have an immortal soul.
You have presented verses that say hell is forever--not that souls live forever. You are then saying, the soul is immortal for it can not die in hell. The point is that there are way too many passages that say the opposite and that death and destruction do come to the soul, including Mat. 10:28 but in your effort to deny it, you have to come up with God can not kill the soul so it burns forever----phooey. God can do whatever He wants. To quote Cosby "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out!"---That God can not do something is crazy-yes, God can keep you alive forever, if He wants, the question then becomes, is He going to keep you alive forever so you can be tormented with fire and brimstone?
Yes, the burning bush was fire, the furnace with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego was 7 times hotter--and there was a fire over the heads of the disciples--all of those had God in them---there was no smoke (those little Jewish boys didn't even smell of smoke) because nothing was being burned---except in the furnace, there were logs burning to get the flames. Where God is, nothing can harm you. We can stand on the surface of the sun and feel no heat---because God chooses to protect you from harm. What you are saying is God chooses to protect you from death, but not from harm, so you feel the pain, but can not die. Bottom line---God is doing this. This is not the character of God. He is certainly able to do so, but His character would not allow Him to do that. You want to argue over punishment or consequences--go right ahead, matters nothing. Hell is the punishment meted out-it is the consequence of choosing not to follow God. And the fire that comes down that destroys the sinners coming against the city clearly states it comes down from God. He is not going to protect them from the effects of His fire. He sends it out for the purpose of cleansing the earth from sin and it will do what He intends it to do and do it in a manner that is consistent with His character--and that character is not one of inflicting endless punishment---According to their works, that is what His justice demands and that is what He will do. Then it will be over and done with and the only reminder of sin, will be the scars that Jesus carries---it is the realization of the love of God and His Son that keeps sin from ever raising it's ugly head aging, not the ever present hell with billions of people and fallen angels burning forever. It is not obedience out of fear that God wants (He could have just wiped out Lucifer and his followers for that) it is obedience out of love and that is what He will get.

razzelflabben · Sep 15, 2016

mmksparbud said:
Oh, baloney---for crying out loud, He just said don't worry about those who can Kill your body--but not your soul---the heart belongs to God, the martyrs loose their lives, but they are still the Lords. To think He then changes the meaning of what He is saying to beware of those who can not only kill the body but also those who can also destroy (but not actually kill the soul) makes absolutely no sense and it is definitely twisting things around to avoid facing the obvious.

I have absolutely no idea what this rant is about. You have repeatedly been shown that in scripture there are two deaths, not just one but you still can't grasp that simple concept and the really sad part of that is that that simple understanding alone would not challenge your beliefs, it's only later that your beliefs are really challenged.

No you have not shown one single verse that says we have an immortal soul. You twisted things to make it seem it has to be that, but not one verse says we have an immortal soul.

well that is an out and out lie, but then again...moving on.

You have presented verses that say hell is forever--not that souls live forever. You are then saying, the soul is immortal for it can not die in hell. The point is that there are way too many passages that say the opposite and that death and destruction do come to the soul, including Mat. 10:28 but in your effort to deny it, you have to come up with God can not kill the soul so it burns forever----phooey. God can do whatever He wants. To quote Cosby "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out!"---That God can not do something is crazy-yes, God can keep you alive forever, if He wants, the question then becomes, is He going to keep you alive forever so you can be tormented with fire and brimstone?

keep telling yourself that till you actually believe it...I'm done being lied about and otherwise insulted by volatile posts like this one.

Yes, the burning bush was fire, the furnace with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego was 7 times hotter--and there was a fire over the heads of the disciples--all of those had God in them---there was no smoke (those little Jewish boys didn't even smell of smoke) because nothing was being burned---except in the furnace, there were logs burning to get the flames. Where God is, nothing can harm you. We can stand on the surface of the sun and feel no heat---because God chooses to protect you from harm. What you are saying is God chooses to protect you from death, but not from harm, so you feel the pain, but can not die.

that isn't even close to what I said but if you read what I said for comprehension, you would know that.

Bottom line---God is doing this. This is not the character of God.

the character of God is love, mercy, grace, and truth and the version of hell that I understand from scripture is consistent with His character.

He is certainly able to do so, but His character would not allow Him to do that. You want to argue over punishment or consequences--go right ahead, matters nothing. Hell is the punishment meted out-it is the consequence of choosing not to follow God. And the fire that comes down that destroys the sinners coming against the city clearly states it comes down from God. He is not going to protect them from the effects of His fire. He sends it out for the purpose of cleansing the earth from sin and it will do what He intends it to do and do it in a manner that is consistent with His character--and that character is not one of inflicting endless punishment--

and again with the whole punishment angle, you really do need to let go of that when you are arguing with people who do NOT believe that hell is a punishment.

-According to their works, that is what His justice demands and that is what He will do. Then it will be over and done with and the only reminder of sin, will be the scars that Jesus carries---it is the realization of the love of God and His Son that keeps sin from ever raising it's ugly head aging, not the ever present hell with billions of people and fallen angels burning forever. It is not obedience out of fear that God wants (He could have just wiped out Lucifer and his followers for that) it is obedience out of love and that is what He will get.

Again, I don't see anything in scripture about fear of hell being a reason to believe in God...fear of God is a different matter.

mmksparbud · Sep 15, 2016

razzelflabben said:
I have absolutely no idea what this rant is about. You have repeatedly been shown that in scripture there are two deaths, not just one but you still can't grasp that simple concept and the really sad part of that is that that simple understanding alone would not challenge your beliefs, it's only later that your beliefs are really challenged.

I know that---the bible clearly states there is a 2nd death. Not a different type of eternal life.

razzelflabben said:
well that is an out and out lie, but then again...moving on.

Really--well then, just to shut me up --repost them--I am old and very forgetful.

razzelflabben said:
keep telling yourself that till you actually believe it...I'm done being lied about and otherwise insulted by volatile posts like this one.

Lied about, insulted, volatile???---

razzelflabben said:
the character of God is love, mercy, grace, and truth and the version of hell that I understand from scripture is consistent with His character.

If tormenting billions of people forever and ever with fire and brimstone is what you feel is His character of lover, mercy and truth---then you believe it. To me it is barbaric, unjust, totally beyond what is necessary and without a shred of mercy---in short---not like His character at all. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, much less their eternal torment.
Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

razzelflabben said:
and again with the whole punishment angle, you really do need to let go of that when you are arguing with people who do NOT believe that hell is a punishment.

Yes, you prefer to call it "consequences"--Jesus calls it punishment
Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Lam_3:39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
Heb_10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
1Pe_2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

You can call it whatever you want--it is being tormented with the pain of fire and brimstone FOREVER.

razzelflabben said:
Again, I don't see anything in scripture about fear of hell being a reason to believe in God...fear of God is a different matter.

Who said anhything about fear of hell being a reason to believe in God?? I sure didn't! I said if God wanted obedience to Him out of fear, He would have killed Lucifer and His followers right from the start. Fear of hell, is no reason to believe in God, for many, it is this concept that drives them away from believing in God.
I said God is not going to have sinners burning in hell forever as a way to keep sin from raising up again---I said it will be the scars of His loving sacrifice that will do that---You accuse me of a lack of comprehension and twisting your words and you come up with something I never even vaguely said.

jeager016 · Sep 15, 2016

@mmksparbud

How DARE you to speak the truth!
If believers would just free the mind, do some serious research they would understand
that everlasting torture and suffering was CREATED by the early church to scare........................................................... the hell out of people who
were ignorant, uneducated, could not read, and believed the almighty Church.
This served the financial needs of the Church also.
People would PAY money to have a departed loved one prayed out of hell or perdition.
Perdition another invention of the R.C.C.
Frankly the R.C.C. might be the anti-Christ.
No offense to Catholics.

razzelflabben · Sep 15, 2016

mmksparbud said:
I know that---the bible clearly states there is a 2nd death. Not a different type of eternal life.

there is only one eternal life that I know of...there is an eternal death and since you refuse to address anything I am saying, I'll pass on reposting all of my responses. they are after all a matter of record.

Really--well then, just to shut me up --repost them--I am old and very forgetful.
Lied about, insulted, volatile???---
If tormenting billions of people forever and ever with fire and brimstone is what you feel is His character of lover, mercy and truth---then you believe it. To me it is barbaric, unjust, totally beyond what is necessary and without a shred of mercy---in short---not like His character at all. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, much less their eternal torment.

as I have repeatedly told you, scripture says that hell is the consequence of sin, not some punishment. So if you expect to have a dialogue with me, you need to reflect what I am saying to you in some fashion or other. In fact, I took one of the passages that supposedly supported the other versions of hell and showed in context not only that man was immortal according to the text but that hell is the consequence of sin. Now repeatedly I have asked you to show what is immoral about hell being a consequence of sin, just like the analogies I have given of stubbing a toe or losing a finger and you refuse to answer those questions so that you can come here and act like the only version of ECT is your version...no thank you...If you can't respond to me and what I said, then stop quoting me and addressing things I didn't say and don't believe.

Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

I pointed this out long ago, but that also means that they do die, that is how the verse reads. Just because God doesn't take pleasure in their death doesn't mean it doesn't happen....btw, do you know whose death He did take pleasure in? It stumps a lot of people...Look at Isaiah 53 for the answer and then tell me how out of character it is for God to be just. Cause if you are responding to me, what you are responding to is me saying that God is just and as such He is love, mercy, compassion, grace, etc.

Yes, you prefer to call it "consequences"--Jesus calls it punishment
Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Lam_3:39 Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
Heb_10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
1Pe_2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

lol we already looked up the translation of the word there and showed that to be a flawed translation...

You can call it whatever you want--it is being tormented with the pain of fire and brimstone FOREVER.

and???? as a consequence of sin there is nothing in it that is contrary to God's character and you have repeatedly testified to that by refusing to address how it is...

Who said anhything about fear of hell being a reason to believe in God?? I sure didn't! I said if God wanted obedience to Him out of fear, He would have killed Lucifer and His followers right from the start. Fear of hell, is no reason to believe in God, for many, it is this concept that drives them away from believing in God.
I said God is not going to have sinners burning in hell forever as a way to keep sin from raising up again---I said it will be the scars of His loving sacrifice that will do that---You accuse me of a lack of comprehension and twisting your words and you come up with something I never even vaguely said.

and????I said that long long ago...not sure what you point is and btw, the way you wrote that paragraph I am not sure you even know what you are trying to say. Remember when I said that "hell fire" as a reason to believe does more damage than good in my opinion? Remember when I said that we should teach hell fire in proportions equal to that of Christ? Remember when I said that hell is not taught in scripture as a "preventive measure" for sin or unbelief? Remember...ah, that is just it, you don't remember so you feel justified to twist what I said and believe into something I didn't say and don't believe so that you can attack me for your inability to write a paragraph that is coherent....that is a very righteous way to handle your opinion, don't you think?

razzelflabben · Sep 15, 2016

jeager016 said:
@mmksparbud

How DARE you to speak the truth!
If believers would just free the mind, do some serious research they would understand
that everlasting torture and suffering was CREATED by the early church to scare........................................................... the hell out of people who
were ignorant, uneducated, could not read, and believed the almighty Church.
This served the financial needs of the Church also.
People would PAY money to have a departed loved one prayed out of hell or perdition.
Perdition another invention of the R.C.C.
Frankly the R.C.C. might be the anti-Christ.
No offense to Catholics.

wow, so you haven't read this thread for comprehension either...how sad.

mark kennedy · Sep 15, 2016

razzelflabben said:
wow, so you haven't read this thread for comprehension either...how sad.

Their putting you on, the thread has been a Bible study, that post childish mockery.

Der Alte · Sep 15, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Yes, it does. The rich-man is tormented by the HEAT of the flame that is in front of him (within the great gulf between him and Abraham).

Assumption and presupposition. Not stated in the text.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

The preposition Jesus used is ἐν/en which means "in." "In this flame!" not behind, beside, near etc.

I mean, stop and think for a moment. Have you ever been burned by fire before? Sure is painful. Isn't it? Now, I want you to imagine being in the shoes of a person that was engulfed in flames and then imagine somebody coming up to you and trying to carry on a normal conversation with you while you are lit up like the human torch. Do you think you could talk all calm and cool during all that? I don't think so.

If Jesus did not mean exactly what He said, what do you think Jesus was really saying? I wonder why all of the native Greek speaking church fathers, who refer to the story of Lazarus and the rich man, considered the account to be factual?

Hstory is written by men (that cannot be trusted).
God's Word is written by God (Which can be trusted).
So the key here is to compare Scripture with Scripture.
Not sure if you ever heard of the Law of First Mention in the Bible, but again, the first appearance of the English word "this" is used in such a way to refer to somebody in front of the individual speaking. Granted, not every appearance of the word "this" is used in this way but it does set a pattern thru out Scripture (especially with other words I have studied).

And certainly not the word "this" in Luke 16:24 where Jesus specifically said the rich man cried "I am tormented in this flame."

*1 Hell (hades) is sort of like an island sitting atop of the Lake of Fire. For the Earth's core is like a big fiery hot ball. *2 The great gulf is an opening or crack in Hell's surface letting some of the flame from below (in the Lake of Fire) to show. *3 This was the flame (in the great gulf) that was in front of the rich-man whereby he was being tormented by the heat of such a flame.

*1,*2 and *3 are all supposition.

Deuteronomy 32:22
"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, [i.e. the Lake of Fire] and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.[i.e. hell]"
The lowest Hell is the Lake of Fire. For the English word Hell can be translated as Gehenna in the Greek within the New Testament, which means Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:14 says hell or hades is cast into the Lake of Fire. So what will happen is that island known as hell will either fall down into the Lake of Fire or the Lake of Fire will overflow the island of hell.

Supposition on top of supposition.

Isaiah 34:14

Click to expand...

"The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, [i.e. hell] and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest."
The wild beasts, the satyr, and the screech owl in this passage are demons. The wild beasts of the island are those demons on the island of Hell.

225 BC LXX Isa 34:14 And devils shall meet with satyrs, and they shall cry one to the other: there shall satyrs rest, having found for themselves a place of rest.
1917 JPS Isa 34:14 And the wild-cats shall meet with the jackals, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; yea, the night-monster shall repose there, and shall find her a place of rest.

"Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body..." (Matthew 10:28)
"There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy…" (James 4:12)
"...who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Timothy 1:10)

Philippians 3:19 - Whose end is destruction.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.
Hebrews 10:39 - We are not of them who draw back unto perdition (Greek: "destruction").

Matt 10:28 and Jam 4:19, where is the verse which says that a/any soul has been or will be destroyed?
2 Thess 1:9 out-of-context, "apolummi from the presence of God." That which has been destroyed, i.e. no longer exists cannot be "from the presence of God" or anything else.
Heb 10:39 We are not of them who draw back unto perdition [ἀπώλεια/apoleia]. Here are a few verses where ἀπώλεια/apoleia does not mean "destruction."

Mat 26:8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?[ἀπώλεια/apoleia]
Mar 14:4 And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste [ἀπώλεια/apoleia] of the ointment made?
Act 25:16 To whom I answered, It is not the manner of the Romans to deliver any man to die, [ἀπώλεια/apoleia] before that he which is accused have the accusers face to face, and have licence to answer for himself concerning the crime laid against him.
2 Pet 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious [ἀπώλεια/apoleia] ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Here is a list of verses compiled by another another proponent of Conditional Immortality. * * *

I don't do long copy/pastes of prewritten arguments and long lists of scripture references

The creation is orderly and logical because God is orderly and logical.
If ECT cannot be explained morally in accordance to God's creation, then it is not logical or true.

Your opinion of what is "morally in accordance to God's creation, then it is not logical or true." and "not logical or true."

The Bible is not written in chronological order. But even if it was, the weeping and gnashing of teeth could be done a few minutes after they are cast into the fire shortly before they are destroyed or erased from existence. Jesus says fear the one who

can destroy both SOUL and BODY in hell (i.e. Gehenna, i.e. the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 10:28).

When does the scripture I quoted say the wailing and gnashing of teeth stops and those cast into the furnace or outer darkness are destroyed? I wonder why Jesus omitted those important points?

It says they were destroyed away from the presence of the Lord. It's not talking about the after-math.

...

Interjecting your own assumptions/presuppositions into the text. The verse says "punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" not "destroyed away from the presence"

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Der Alte · Sep 15, 2016

jeager016 said:
@mmksparbud
How DARE you to speak the truth!; )
If believers would just free the mind, do some serious research they would understand
that everlasting torture and suffering was CREATED by the early church to scare........................................................... the hell out of people who were ignorant, uneducated, could not read, and believed the almighty Church.

I suggest you read real history rather than the anti-RCC propaganda you have been reading.
Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10. The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
<•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•>
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm[/indent]
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/

This served the financial needs of the Church also.
People would PAY money to have a departed loved one prayed out of hell or perdition.
Perdition another invention of the R.C.C.
Frankly the R.C.C. might be the anti-Christ.
No offense to Catholics.

Anti-RCC rhetoric with no basis in fact.

Achilles6129 · Sep 15, 2016

LionDog1 said:
Why do you use the word "eternal TORTURE?" [There are no concordance results for eternal "torture" in the KJV.]

It's the same as the word "torment."

The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

Natura non facit saltum

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Natura non facit saltum

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Natura non facit saltum

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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