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The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

mmksparbud

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Well, that is the problem, isn't it? I can't!! It isn't fair, it isn't justice!

Now, just for fun--why not pretend that God is good and loving and merciful---
but He hates sin, and punishes sinners---how do you reconcile a loving God, punishing the nonbelievers for a period of time according to the sins they have done, and then they cease to exist so that sin is destroyed with them? I can wrap my head around that and say---that sounds fair.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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First, I think both ECT and annihilationism are supremely misguided, both philosophically and theologically. However, I see nothing that needs reconciling in this thought experiment. God is good, not because of what God does, but because God is God. Therefore, God condemning the whole of humanity, both believers and non-believers, to an eternal existence of divinely-inflicted torture does not alter the immutable fact of God's goodness.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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Well, that is the problem, isn't it? I can't!! It isn't fair, it isn't justice!

How so? Such a statement suggests that a standard exists external to both God and God's actions regarding the universe by which the actions of God will be judged. However, such is not the case. God is not "just" because God does "X" and "Y", but not "Z", as if God's actions have to align with a standard of justice external to God whereby an obligation to behave in a particular way can be imposed upon God. Such is an absurd notion.

No, God is just because God is God. God cannot be other than just, as justice proceeds in being intelligible on the basis of that which God does, not in how God's actions align with another standard of behavior.
 
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mmksparbud

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Exactly---and that is why God will not be tormenting anyone forever. His character will not allow it.
 
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expos4ever

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So if there is no punishment for rejecting God, why the need to turn away from sin and to him?
I trust you realize how odd this question will appear to at least some readers. More specifically, to ask this question seems to disclose that you ascribe to the principle that the only motive for human beings to do good is the avoidance of punishment.
 
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razzelflabben

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I guess I tend to take these things at face value unless there is obvious reason to believe otherwise.
In scripture there are multiple layers of truths. For example, previously we were talking about parables, we also see analogies, poems, songs, history, etc. One of the things that is often overlooked is that of symbolism. Now, that does not mean everything is symbolic, please don't get me wrong here. what it does mean is that where we know that hell is eternal and torment we do not know exactly what that torment is. If someone tried to separate me right now (as in this stage of my walk with God) from my Lord and King I am not sure at all that it would not physically bring about my fleshly death. I am that dependent on God. Every breath I take is not only because He gave it but because I give it back to Him. I am not my own.

When I think about hell, I wonder what eternity without God would be like. Honestly I can't even imagine it. God is so much around us and in us and for us and about us and in Love with us that everything good would be gone if God were removed from the picture. Life as we know it would cease to exist. Period. Scripture says that every good gift and every perfect gift is from God. Even the air we breath. Imagine that for a moment, no air to breath, no comfort, no food, no self healing of wounds, no family to comfort us, no chocolate , nothing good...no forgiveness, no grace, no mercy, that is hell, it is eternal separation from God. I do NOT know if the pain of hell is flesh burning as we know it today but I do know that it is separation from God and that includes all the good things He has given to us that we take for granted. That is a horror that as far as I am concerned is far worse than flesh burning.

By the same token, heaven is in the presence of God, it is to have all the good that He has for us, even good that we cannot fathom in the flesh. it is not just the good, but it is the complete absence of evil of all kinds. No pain, no struggles, no one hurting us. It is fresh air with lungs that can drink it in (I have asthma so a big deal for me) It is food so delicious that we can't even imagine, flowers with colors so vibrant our eyes can't take it all in. Jewels and light, oh the light that will fill the place. All the good and none of the bad.

Our minds cannot imagine either extreme because this is all we know, but I do not think it is far fetched at all to say that hell with or without literal flesh burning will be a horrible place that we would do well to want to avoid and the only way to avoid it is Christ.
 
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razzelflabben

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Well, that is the problem, isn't it? I can't!! It isn't fair, it isn't justice!
it can be....you are avoiding the experiment to say it isn't fair, it isn't justice...let yourself go for a moment and think it through. my problem with that thought experiment is that 1. it isn't consistent with scripture, and 2. it doesn't ask me to do anything, but rather tells me what to think which isn't a thought experiment at all.

so how about you try the thought experiment...and then actually provide one for me to do, I have no fear in exploring options.
 
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food4thought

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Then explain to me how one can be conscious AND dead.
You'll run into problems with Scripture describing death.

Again, look at the case of Adam. He died, per God's warning, THE DAY he ate of the fruit, yet he lived physically for hundreds of years afterward. You are confusing physical death with spiritual death.

We die physically, with Christ, our Spirit immediately goes to be with God, awaiting the resurrection (see Revelation 6:9 for an example of this state). To die without Christ, one goes to hades (story of Lazarus) and awaits the white throne judgment (again, conscious, but WITHOUT eternal life). At the white throne judgment, they are cast away from God into the lake of fire (which I view as non-literal) where the beast and the false prophet still are (1000 years later), separated from fellowship with God, the 2nd death.

I could describe for you how I view the eternal existence of the wicked dead, but it takes some explaining and I don't want to do so unless you (or someone else) wants to read it. Needless to say, I do not believe in "Psychopath God" who has the need to burn people forever, but I do believe in eternal conscious "torment"... it is the greek meaning of that word that leads to understanding.

Again, I don't WANT to believe in ECT, I just feel compelled to by my understanding of Scripture.
 
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mmksparbud

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It is absolutely with scripture and certainly consistent with the character of God. You just won't accept the scriptures that have been presented, nor the idea of God's character being too just to do such a thing. Pretend you're a judge--and that 14 year old that stole $5.00 is before you--he will not surrender to God, but hasn't done anything else---Now, if that was your son--if you could punish him with horrible tortures for eternity, hear him scream, and cry (weeping and gnashing of teeth)---or, let's go real gentle---you throw him into a dark cell--and you never contact him again and you leave him all alone, forever---if you can do that----it shows the kind of character, the kind of justice, the kind of mercy and love you have for you child. Which isn't much.
 
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Butch5

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Jason, Actually there is evidence that the parable of "Lazarus and the Rich Man" is an allegory. The main evidence is that they are dead. Dead people cannot talk, taste, feel, etc. They are dead.
 
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Hillsage

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No 'closer' than you seem comfortable to respond BACK with, so maybe we're both walking the edge equally. Sorry, never meant to be rude and the smiley face was supposed to help establish that. But, as a chiropractor and a student of scripture, both were meant to promote sincere study and questions which align with GOD. I certainly don't depend Wikipedia as a final source for deeper spiritual things. Let me just start with a better translation which all who are 'non ETERNAL Hell believers' seem familiar with (not that it's the only one);

Youngs Literal Translation
ROM 2:7 to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility - life age-during;

There is a difference between the mortal life of 'corruptible' flesh, and the 'life' of God which is available for the age one is living in. Even the apostles understood such a possibility of immortality concerning John;

YLT JOH 21:22 Jesus saith to him, 'If him I will to remain till I come, what - to thee? be thou following me.' This word, therefore, went forth to the brethren that that disciple doth not die,
 
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Doesn't Revelation tell us that people who take the mark of the beast will have no rest day or night?

Yes, they will indeed have "no rest," but when will this happen? It will be during the tribulation period while on this earth. It is important to note that in the previous verse, John wrote in the Greek future tense and refers to the Great White Throne Judgment where the lost will be tormented "in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb" on Judgment Day. This is a future event for John. The Greek tense is in the future.In this verse, John changes tenses. It is in the Greek present tense. This cannot be stressed enough. In his literal translation of the scriptures, Robert Young, compiler of the Analytical Concordance that bears his name, translates it into a perfect English translation-as John wrote it:

"And they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image." (Young's Literal Translation–Revelation 14:11)


The apostle John writes this word "proskuneo" (worship/bowing) in the Greek present tense. The present tense is the tense he chooses to use to describe the rest of the events of Revelation that occur on the earth. So this must be while on earth since it is in the same Greek tense. Look at verse 9 in which the unsaved "worship" (also in the Greek present tense) the beast "and receive his mark." This is very important because it clearly occurs while on this earth. So, if the receiving of this mark (whatever it may be) is on this earth, then the worshipping in 14:11 must also be on this earth. Hence, the "no rest day or night" must occur on this earth as well.

The "no resting day or night" occurs while they are "bowing" and "worshipping" (present tense) the beast. This occurs during the time on earth when the book of Revelation events are being unfolded. These are people who are forced to receive the mark of the beast (Revelation 13:16). John also tells us that painful sores break out on their body, "And there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image." (Revelation 16:2) This is while they are on the earth.

Additionally–the very next verse states "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12). Why is this important? Because "keeping" is in the very same tense! John's statement of those "who keep (present tense) the commandments" must be at the same time as those who have "no rest" and are "worshipping (present tense) the beast." Therefore–this is conclusive proof that these both occur on the earth. Need more proof? Well, the same Greek word and tense of "worship" (of God this time) is also used in Revelation 11:1 where it is absolutely clear that the "worship" is going on in the present tense upon this earth. Let me repeat–Revelation 11:1, 14:11, 16:2, all have the same Greek tense! You have to make them all be acts of "worship" while upon this earth.

Therefore, how can anyone "rest day or night" when they have painful such sores on their body and are forced to worship the beast? (Revelation 14:11 & 16:2). And John specifically tells us when this worshipping shall occur-it is when they "dwell upon the earth." "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him..." (Revelation 13:8) So the worshipping and the no resting both occur while upon this earth.

But what about the words "forever" in Revelation 14:11?

Should the English words "for ever" (or "forever") be read literally meaning an endless state?

Well, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you. What I am I talking about? Well, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.

In other words,, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”

Side Note:

While I believe the wicked will be destroyed or annihilated in the Lake of Fire, I believe the unbelieving wicked will be in a literal place called hell (but it is not a torture chamber of flames); And the unprofitable servant will be in outerdarkness until they are judged and cast into the Lake of Fire (along with the unbelieving wicked), as well.


Sources Used:
http://www.jewishnotgreek.com
http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php

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Jason, Actually there is evidence that the parable of "Lazarus and the Rich Man" is an allegory. The main evidence is that they are dead. Dead people cannot talk, taste, feel, etc. They are dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 is talking about the physical bodies and not the disembodied souls who are spirits existing in a spirit realm. For the spirit returns to God (Ecclesiastes 12:7). For angels do not have physical bodies in the same way that humans do and yet they can speak to us and they can see us. As a matter of fact, angels (who are spirits) can even protect us physically (Psalms 91:11) (Luke 4:10).


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food4thought

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Where is aionia used as a limited period of time?
 
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Butch5

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That's all man is. He is a physical being, not a spiritual being. The "spirit" that returns to God is the breath (spirit) of life that He gives to man. Gen 2:7 tells us how God created man. He created man from the elements of the earth and then breathed into him the breath or spirit of life and the man "became" a living soul. This shows us that a soul consists of two things, the man, a flesh being, and the breath or spirit of life. When a man dies that breath or spirit of life returns to God and the man, the physical flesh, returns to dust just as God said it would.

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)

God told Adam, dust you are. He didn't tell Adam he was a spirit, He said he is dust. Thus neither Lazarus nor the rich man could communicate, feel, sense, etc, while in Hades, which is the grave. Notice also where Lazarus and the rich man are, they are in the grave. Where did God tell Adam he would return to? The dust. So, the dead return to the dust of the earth and Lazarus and the rich man in the parable are in the dust of the earth.
 
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razzelflabben

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huh? I asked you for a thought experiment, not something you are telling me to believe...it isn't that hard to produce a thought experiment especially without all the false accusations you start out with here.

It is obvious from your posts that hell angers you to the point that you are almost venomous with anyone who challenges your preconceived notions about it, but I am not asking you to change your preconceived notions, I am asking you to think things through for a moment and see what other possibles exist than the one you have convinced yourself of.

As I said, I have no fear in exploring other ideas and notions and beliefs. If you present a thought experiment I will be more than happy to participate even though you refuse to do the one I present. The problem is that you present nothing for us to examine, all you are doing is giving a scenario and telling us how to feel about it. That explores nothing but your own unwillingness to think about things differently then you have convinced yourself to think.

Let me see if I can fix your bias into a thought experiment....we assume in the experiment that God is a good Father who wants what is best for His children. One day His child stands before Him and is guilty of stealing $5.00 what would that Father do?

My answer, the Father would correct the child so that he did not repeat the behavior that might lead him to a life of crime and end him up in jail. Maybe even guilty of armed robbery in which the son accidentally shot someone and killed them.

Now look at Proverbs 23:14... Punish them with the rod and save them from death.
According to this passage, God's punishment, that is corrections are for the purpose of keeping us out of hell (second death) Like in the thought experiment, God isn't about punishing us with hell but about keeping us out of hell, that is why He died in the first place, so that we don't have to die.

Lay another thought experiment on us if you want...that is the best I could do to fix the one you gave.
 
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Jason, I would submit that "forever" which is usually translated from "olam" or "aion" is wrongly translated and doesn't mean forever.

You can submit that all you like, my friend. But I do not believe there are any errors in the KJV. The word "forever" can be used as a colorful expression of strong emotion for the totality of an allotted time. It is a strong expression of emotion of totality. Sort of like how a man might say to his wife in love, "I am your husband forever." He is speaking in this life how he will be her wife "forever" and not for all time past death. For he knows he won't be her husband for all eternity because he knows death will separate them as husband and wife at some point.

In fact, we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15. For it says,

"For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;"
(Philemon 1:15 KJV).

This is talking about Onesimus. Here is what it says in the New Living Translation,

15 "It seems you lost Onesimus for a little while so that you could have him back forever.
16 He is no longer like a slave to you. He is more than a slave, for he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord."
(Philemon 1:15-16 NLT).

In other words, Onesimus did not return to his master for all eternity here upon this Earth. Onesimus is not still alive. He is not an immortal or anything of that nature. He was mortal and he died. So to assume that the word "forever" and it's related words always means forever does not work. Meaning, one has to re-examine what they believe the word "forever" means in relation to the Greek word "Gehenna", i.e. the Lake of Fire (Which is translated in the English as "hell").


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Hillsage

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To me it sounds unfair that "Christians" get their 'get out of eternal hell card' and then sin like hell til they die and go to heaven. You do still sin right? I know I do. And I know that, but for the grace of God, he ought to destroy those sins with you/I too. Thank God He doesn't think like us, but forgave ALL from the cross.
 
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Butch5

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Where is aionia used as a limited period of time?

Olam in the Masoretic text is often translated with aion in the Septuagint, the Greek OT and it is often used of finite periods of time. The definition of aion is an age. And age by definition is not eternal.
 
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