The Doctrine of Creation: A Critique of Credobaptism.

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Both Credos and Paedos agree that infants are created in the image of God. Small children have a soul and are spiritual creatures. God gives each of us a spirit by which we can commune with God as God is spirit. The spiritual nature is what distinguishes humans from animals.

When credos say they don’t baptize infants because they can not or do not have faith, what are they actually saying?

They are saying infants are incomplete creatures of God, and don’t become complete creatures of God until the Age of Accountability….at that at point the can have saving faith. This is clear….all of humanity does not have the ability to have saving faith until the Age of Accountability.

This belief is intensified by the credos treatment of the severely mentally ill. They will forever be incomplete creatures of God. Sort of a second class person, never fully belonging to the human race. This assumption is highly offensive to families with SMI children or adults.

The assumption here is God is NOT available to an infant or the severely mentally ill…. but only to adults with a fully functioning mental capability. But does God really have a self imposed restriction on Himself,...that even He can’t communicate and bring to faith anyone before the Age of Accountability?

Examples of John the Baptist and Jeremiah, who were regenerated in the womb and filled with the Holy Spirit demonstrate that God bypassed the human intellect and brought them to saving faith.

Also, it seems to me credos believe infants are not so dissimilar to the animals because animals are living creatures but they cannot and do not have saving faith either.

Paedos believe infants are fully human with nothing more needed for them to be human.

Paedos believe there is no moment in life, when a person is more human than another.

Credos believe you are more human after the Age of Accountability, because you then can have the ability to have saving faith and fully joined to humanity.

 

[renniks]

Silly me. I thought that the issue was that the Bible never said to baptize people who haven't declared their faith.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Infant baptism is really a consecration ritual. Water baptism (symbolic death and resurrection) is a public statement of repentance. The conferring of the Holy Spirit by the 'laying on of hands' follows. Babies have no need to do this.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Infant baptism is really a consecration ritual. Water baptism (symbolic death and resurrection) is a public statement of repentance. The conferring of the Holy Spirit by the 'laying on of hands' follows. Babies have no need to do this.

Where does the Scripture specifically state baptism is SYMBOLIC of anything? No where in Scripture states baptism is symbolic. The greek word for symbol is "symbolia" and it is NOT found in the NT nor the LXX.

With the caveat of the NIV translation of I Peter 3:18 "symbol" for "antitype" which is a bad translation....no where does Scripture state baptism is symbolic.

Stating baptism is symbolic of something in the NT is an INNOVATION and not apart of Sola Scriptura. Saying baptism is symbolic is just American Christianity speak....not the words of Scripture

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Both Credos and Paedos agree that infants are created in the image of God. Small children have a soul and are spiritual creatures. God gives each of us a spirit by which we can commune with God as God is spirit. The spiritual nature is what distinguishes humans from animals.

When credos say they don’t baptize infants because they can not or do not have faith, what are they actually saying?

They are saying infants are incomplete creatures of God, and don’t become complete creatures of God until the Age of Accountability….at that at point the can have saving faith. This is clear….all of humanity does not have the ability to have saving faith until the Age of Accountability.

This belief is intensified by the credos treatment of the severely mentally ill. They will forever be incomplete creatures of God. Sort of a second class person, never fully belonging to the human race. This assumption is highly offensive to families with SMI children or adults.

The assumption here is God is NOT available to an infant or the severely mentally ill…. but only to adults with a fully functioning mental capability. But does God really have a self imposed restriction on Himself,...that even He can’t communicate and bring to faith anyone before the Age of Accountability?

Examples of John the Baptist and Jeremiah, who were regenerated in the womb and filled with the Holy Spirit demonstrate that God bypassed the human intellect and brought them to saving faith.

Also, it seems to me credos believe infants are not so dissimilar to the animals because animals are living creatures but they cannot and do not have saving faith either.

Paedos believe infants are fully human with nothing more needed for them to be human.

Paedos believe there is no moment in life, when a person is more human than another.

Credos believe you are more human after the Age of Accountability, because you then can have the ability to have saving faith and fully joined to humanity.

What really matters is Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”

 

[concretecamper]

What really matters is Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”

Jesus says both water and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Jesus says both water and the Holy Spirit.

When would the baptism of the Holy Spirit happen?

 

[The Liturgist]

Now, I actually really love three credobaptist denominations, the SBC, the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ, and the Christian and Missionary Alliance, but I do believe it is much better to baptize infants based on the instruction of our Lord “suffer the little ones to come to me” and the multiple instances of entire households being baptized in the New Testament.

 

[The Liturgist]

By the way @Ain't Zwinglian I would love to have a conversation with you about our shared theological values and about sacramental theology in Traditional Theology, if you are up for it. It is an extremely friendly forum on ChristianForums, specifically for discussion of traditional theological positions, like your views on Baptism and your rejection of Zwinglianism, and related topics like Liturgics, the role of Tradition, Patristics, and so on. We have Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, and even a Calvinist.

 

[concretecamper]

When would the baptism of the Holy Spirit happen?

and your answer is?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

and your answer is?

BELIEF.
And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

 

[concretecamper]

BELIEF.
And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

we receive the Grace of Baptism not as a reward for belief. We receive the Grace of Baptism entirely due to Him. And to repeat what Jesus said, we need to be Baptized with WATER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

we receive the Grace of Baptism not as a reward for belief. We receive the Grace of Baptism entirely due to Him. And to repeat what Jesus said, we need to be Baptized with WATER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Ok, however I do not adhere to Augustine in this case.
Be blessed.

 

[concretecamper]

Ok, however I do not adhere to Augustine in this case.
Be blessed.

or the words of Jesus.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

or the words of Jesus.

I'm guessing you are not referring to after His ascension when He sent His Holy Spirit to His Disciples. Before this it was only water as John the Baptist said.
Blessings

 

[concretecamper]

I'm guessing you are not referring to after His ascension when He sent His Holy Spirit to His Disciples.

Pentecost?

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

One HUGE difference between paedos and credos is: Paedos believe saving faith is the outcome of baptism, whereas the Credos say baptism is the outcome of a person's faith.

OR

Those who hold the Credo view, baptize because the person believes. Those who hold the Paedo view, baptize in order that the person would believe.

 

[concretecamper]

One HUGE difference between paedos and credos is: Paedos believe saving faith is the outcome of baptism, whereas the Credos say baptism is the outcome of a person's faith.

OR

Those who hold the Credo view, baptize because the person believes. Those who hold the Paedo view, baptize in order that the person would believe.

according to the Gospel, neither of these views are correct

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

according to the Gospel, neither of these views are correct

I see that you come from a Catholic background. But even Catholic believe that baptism is a means of grace. As do Lutherans, Reformed, Anglican, and Methodists. The means of grace are the instruments by which God's grace comes to us. Therefore, baptism is seen as God's work not mans. I am saved by God's work not man's.
Baptism is seen an act of divine grace, rather than seen as an expression of human choice. VAST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CREDOS AND PAEDOS.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I see that you come from a Catholic background. But even Catholic believe that baptism is a means of grace. As do Lutherans, Reformed, Anglican, and Methodists. The means of grace are the instruments by which God's grace comes to us. Therefore, baptism is seen as God's work not mans. I am saved by God's work not man's.
Baptism is seen an act of divine grace, rather than seen as an expression of human choice. VAST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CREDOS AND PAEDOS.

And then, to throw a wrench in the works, there is sacerdotalism in which grace is tertiary, at best.