What about the seven churches in Revelations? Who is addressed in the first 3 chapters of Revelations? The body of Christ or the church mentioned in Matt 16:18?
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The difference is works!!!!
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What about the seven churches in Revelations? Who is addressed in the first 3 chapters of Revelations? The body of Christ or the church mentioned in Matt 16:18?
The churches in Revelation refers to the believing Remanant. The body of christ would've been gone up to meet him already.
I thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come
I thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come
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eph3Nine: Would you concur with that statement?
rightlydividingtheword: Are you saying that the seven churches discussed did not exist during Johns time but that John was writing to churches that will exist after the rapture during the tribulation period?
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eph3Nine
Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!
rightlydividingtheword said:
Thats correct! The church which is His BODY has already gone to be with the Lord in the air. Hebrews thru Revelation is God dealing AGAIN with the Nation Israel. Under the program that Israel signed up for in Leviticus 26, FOUR of the five courses of curses have already historically taken place. There remains ONE course of curses for Israel to endure, the time of Jacobs Trouble, the seven years of the GREAT TRIBULATION.
Gen thru Acts = God dealing with the nation ISRAEL/Kingdom program/earthly/times PAST of Eph 2.
Romans thru Philemon= God dealing with the Church which is His BODY/Mystery program (Romans 16:25)/heavenly/BUT NOW of Eph 2
Hebrews thru Revelation = God RESUMES his interrupted program with Israel/Kingdom program again/earthly/AGES to COME of Eph 2:7
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Romans 11:5-8 (NASB95)
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to Gods gracious choice.
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
8 just as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, Eyes to see not and ears to hear not, Down to this very day.
Romans 11:25-26 (NASB95)
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mysteryso that you will not be wise in your own estimationthat a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.
Is it correct to refer to the seven churches as the remnant?
Paul seems to refer to the remnant as the believing Jews who were living during his time, does he not?
As the church are we not raptured delivered from the wrath to come (I Thess 1:10) right after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (11:25)?
In verse 26 doesnt it say that at that time all of Israel (with the exception of those who are purged Ez 20:38) will be saved?
If the seven churches of Revelations chapters 2 and 3 represent Israel in the future, doesnt it refer to the vast majority of Israel and not just a remnant?
Revelation 1:4 (NASB95)
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
Could you explain who these seven churches are? Am I indeed understanding you correctly, are you saying that these seven churches are future and Johns writing has not yet been delivered to its primary intended audience?
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to Gods gracious choice.
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
8 just as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, Eyes to see not and ears to hear not, Down to this very day.
Romans 11:25-26 (NASB95)
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mysteryso that you will not be wise in your own estimationthat a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.
Is it correct to refer to the seven churches as the remnant?
Paul seems to refer to the remnant as the believing Jews who were living during his time, does he not?
As the church are we not raptured delivered from the wrath to come (I Thess 1:10) right after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (11:25)?
In verse 26 doesnt it say that at that time all of Israel (with the exception of those who are purged Ez 20:38) will be saved?
If the seven churches of Revelations chapters 2 and 3 represent Israel in the future, doesnt it refer to the vast majority of Israel and not just a remnant?
Revelation 1:4 (NASB95)
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
Could you explain who these seven churches are? Am I indeed understanding you correctly, are you saying that these seven churches are future and Johns writing has not yet been delivered to its primary intended audience?
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eph3Nine
Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!
Keep in mind..Romans 9 = Israel times PAST
Romans 10=Israel BUT NOW
Romans 11=Israel Ages TO COME
First you must acknowledge that in Eph 2:11, 12, 13 and verse 7, God gives us the way His word is divided.
Times PAST, BUT NOW, and AGES to COME.
Times PAST and AGES to COME have to do with Israel. They are separated by Gods INTERUPTION to that program by the "MYSTERY", which is the information given to Paul, OUR apostle, for the Body of Christ. Pauls MYSTERY revelations are the "But NOW" ....the age of the Dispensation of the GRACE of God that we currently enjoy.
Please, put aside what you have been taught at seminary, Bible College, in your church denominations party line....and simply READ what the Word SAYS.
If we DON'T distinguish between Gods interrupted program with Israel and the MYSTERY program that signaled the beginning of Christianity, then we will forever be quagmired in the confusion having to do with SATANS plan of evil.
Romans 10=Israel BUT NOW
Romans 11=Israel Ages TO COME
First you must acknowledge that in Eph 2:11, 12, 13 and verse 7, God gives us the way His word is divided.
Times PAST, BUT NOW, and AGES to COME.
Times PAST and AGES to COME have to do with Israel. They are separated by Gods INTERUPTION to that program by the "MYSTERY", which is the information given to Paul, OUR apostle, for the Body of Christ. Pauls MYSTERY revelations are the "But NOW" ....the age of the Dispensation of the GRACE of God that we currently enjoy.
Please, put aside what you have been taught at seminary, Bible College, in your church denominations party line....and simply READ what the Word SAYS.
If we DON'T distinguish between Gods interrupted program with Israel and the MYSTERY program that signaled the beginning of Christianity, then we will forever be quagmired in the confusion having to do with SATANS plan of evil.
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Eph3Nine: You failed to answer my questions and instead tried to convince me of what I already believe.
I was trying to point out something similar to what you just said in your last post.
Keep in mind..Romans 9 = Israel times PAST
Romans 10=Israel BUT NOW = Romans 11:5-6 Believing Israel is at the present time a remnant It is not accurate to use this term to describe future Israel because at that time all of Israel will be saved.
Romans 11=Israel Ages TO COME = Romans 11:26-27
The distinction between Israel and the Church is unavoidable if one takes the word of God literally. We do not disagree on this point. My questions start with the assumption that this is true. In Gen 15:18, God promised Abraham all the land from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates. Israel has not as of this point in time received this land that God has promised them. As Paul points out in Romans 11:29 the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable God will indeed keep His word Israel will have the land that God has promised. This will happen during the millennial reign of Christ on the earth, but first the fullness of the Gentiles need to be completed (Romans 11:26) which will usher in the rapture of the Church and the 7 year tribulation period. 3 ½ years into this wrath of God on the wickedness of mankind the antichrist will take the throne in the earthly Jewish temple and proclaim himself to be God (2Thess 2:4) At this time Israel will realize that they have been deceived and will realize that their true messiah was the one that they crucified 2000+ years ago. At this time Israel nationally will call upon the name of the Lord and be saved (Romans 11:26). At the end of the tribulation Christ will return to set up a literal 1000 Kingdom on the earth fulfilling the promises that God made to Abraham in Gen chapter 15. Just letting you know where we do agree so you will not waste your time preaching to the choir. That being said I still have the questions that I asked earlier and am hoping that you can address them.
Is it correct to refer to the seven churches as the remnant?
Paul seems to refer to the remnant as the believing Jews who were living during his time, does he not?
As the church are we not raptured delivered from the wrath to come (I Thess 1:10) right after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (11:25)?
In verse 26 doesnt it say that at that time all of Israel (with the exception of those who are purged Ez 20:38) will be saved?
If the seven churches of Revelations chapters 2 and 3 represent Israel in the future, doesnt it refer to the vast majority of Israel and not just a remnant?
Revelation 1:4 (NASB95)
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
Could you explain who these seven churches are? Am I indeed understanding you correctly, are you saying that these seven churches are future and Johns writing has not yet been delivered to its primary intended audience?
I was trying to point out something similar to what you just said in your last post.
Keep in mind..Romans 9 = Israel times PAST
Romans 10=Israel BUT NOW = Romans 11:5-6 Believing Israel is at the present time a remnant It is not accurate to use this term to describe future Israel because at that time all of Israel will be saved.
Romans 11=Israel Ages TO COME = Romans 11:26-27
The distinction between Israel and the Church is unavoidable if one takes the word of God literally. We do not disagree on this point. My questions start with the assumption that this is true. In Gen 15:18, God promised Abraham all the land from the river of Egypt to the river Euphrates. Israel has not as of this point in time received this land that God has promised them. As Paul points out in Romans 11:29 the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable God will indeed keep His word Israel will have the land that God has promised. This will happen during the millennial reign of Christ on the earth, but first the fullness of the Gentiles need to be completed (Romans 11:26) which will usher in the rapture of the Church and the 7 year tribulation period. 3 ½ years into this wrath of God on the wickedness of mankind the antichrist will take the throne in the earthly Jewish temple and proclaim himself to be God (2Thess 2:4) At this time Israel will realize that they have been deceived and will realize that their true messiah was the one that they crucified 2000+ years ago. At this time Israel nationally will call upon the name of the Lord and be saved (Romans 11:26). At the end of the tribulation Christ will return to set up a literal 1000 Kingdom on the earth fulfilling the promises that God made to Abraham in Gen chapter 15. Just letting you know where we do agree so you will not waste your time preaching to the choir. That being said I still have the questions that I asked earlier and am hoping that you can address them.
Is it correct to refer to the seven churches as the remnant?
Paul seems to refer to the remnant as the believing Jews who were living during his time, does he not?
As the church are we not raptured delivered from the wrath to come (I Thess 1:10) right after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (11:25)?
In verse 26 doesnt it say that at that time all of Israel (with the exception of those who are purged Ez 20:38) will be saved?
If the seven churches of Revelations chapters 2 and 3 represent Israel in the future, doesnt it refer to the vast majority of Israel and not just a remnant?
Revelation 1:4 (NASB95)
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
Could you explain who these seven churches are? Am I indeed understanding you correctly, are you saying that these seven churches are future and Johns writing has not yet been delivered to its primary intended audience?
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eph3Nine
Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!
Sorry, I have a bad cold. I can usually deal with one or two questions at a time, but this , in my present fuzzy headed condition seems wAAAAAAAY TO MUCH for me to tackle. I will defer to my learned pals who will be able to answer you from a dispensational point of view quite nicely. I apologize....but hey, I just dont feel real well.
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lightninboy
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