The difference is works!!!!

[rightlydividingtheword]

PAul preached that works is no longer required for salvation,but that we should maintain good works not out of debt or fear of penalty but out of love for what cgrist has done for us.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men
ACTS 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. "that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord".

According to Peter you will not be saved until the end either when jesus comes back, or your physical death.
That means you have to endure till the end(whatever comes first whether death or jesus return to deliver Israel) "when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord".

This is all in line with prophecy, let's look at the prophet Daniel

DANIEL 12:1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book".

That "times of refreshing" is speaking about Jesus triumphant return to save Isreal from their enemies THAT'S WHY iSRAEL HAD TO ENDURE TILL THE END BY WORKS

In acts 10 Peter is talking about works

ACTS 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him"Worketh righteousness is accepted by christ" means by works

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Is paul saying the samething?
NO!

If you was to say yes it tells me you don't know what grace is.

Grace: unmerited favor, a gift you didn't have to work for it.

ROMANS 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. This says it's either grace(unmerited favor) or by works


EPHESIANS 2:8,9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt " not reckoned of grace, but of debt"

The word reckoned means to "attribute"

Romans 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth (make righteous)the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This is what god's grace does for us it imputes righteousness to us, our faith with the absense of works justifies us or make us in right standing with god(in this age of grace)

Romans 4:6
4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

God imputes righteousness without works!!!!

Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debtif you try to work for it you attribute debt

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Your owed death.
You can't pay this death through your works.
Let me show you how

James 2:10
2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all

Some of you are saying "that's the law of moses"Let me address this matter.What is the law?
It's 613 laws that covered virtually everything imagined such as adultery, lying, murder, even your own conscience God says became a law to you.

Romans 2:14-15
2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Galations 3:1-3
3:1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
3:2
This only would I learn of you,Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3:3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Paul says did you recieve the spirit"the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

Did you recieve the holy ghost by acts 2:38 or Ephesians 1:12,13

did you recieve it by ACTS 2:38


ACTS 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

or did you recieve it by ephesians 1:13?



EPHESIANS 1:13,

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Did you recieve by works or by grace(god's unmerited favor, no work s involved)?"after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise"

Acts 10:43
10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
10:44
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

They recieved the spirit by hearing the word

Ephesians 3:2

This only would I learn of you,Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
"or by the hearing of faith"

Let's recap peter says in acts 10

ACTS 10:35
"But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him"

HE also says in Matthew 10

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.



So you had to work righteousness(works) and you had to endure to the end(works)

Paul says just believing is necessary for achieving and maintaining salvation.
Peter as well as the twelve preach salvation is achieved and maintained through works

Romans 11:6

11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

 

[eph3Nine]

Amen....Paul says that salvation is no more by works....wow...I would say thats a BIG CHANGE!!!!

 

[GLJCA]

PAul preached that works is no longer required for salvation,but that we should maintain good works not out of debt or fear of penalty but out of love for what cgrist has done for us.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men
ACTS 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. "that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord".

According to Peter you will not be saved until the end either when jesus comes back, or your physical death.
That means you have to endure till the end(whatever comes first whether death or jesus return to deliver Israel) "when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord".

This is all in line with prophecy, let's look at the prophet Daniel

DANIEL 12:1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book".

That "times of refreshing" is speaking about Jesus triumphant return to save Isreal from their enemies THAT'S WHY iSRAEL HAD TO ENDURE TILL THE END BY WORKS

In acts 10 Peter is talking about works

ACTS 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him"Worketh righteousness is accepted by christ" means by works

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Is paul saying the samething?
NO!

If you was to say yes it tells me you don't know what grace is.

Grace: unmerited favor, a gift you didn't have to work for it.

ROMANS 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. This says it's either grace(unmerited favor) or by works


EPHESIANS 2:8,9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt " not reckoned of grace, but of debt"

The word reckoned means to "attribute"

Romans 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth (make righteous)the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This is what god's grace does for us it imputes righteousness to us, our faith with the absense of works justifies us or make us in right standing with god(in this age of grace)

Romans 4:6
4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

God imputes righteousness without works!!!!

Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debtif you try to work for it you attribute debt

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Your owed death.
You can't pay this death through your works.
Let me show you how

James 2:10
2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all

Some of you are saying "that's the law of moses"Let me address this matter.What is the law?
It's 613 laws that covered virtually everything imagined such as adultery, lying, murder, even your own conscience God says became a law to you.

Romans 2:14-15
2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Galations 3:1-3
3:1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
3:2
This only would I learn of you,Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3:3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Paul says did you recieve the spirit"the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

Did you recieve the holy ghost by acts 2:38 or Ephesians 1:12,13

did you recieve it by ACTS 2:38


ACTS 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

or did you recieve it by ephesians 1:13?



EPHESIANS 1:13,

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Did you recieve by works or by grace(god's unmerited favor, no work s involved)?"after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise"

Acts 10:43
10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
10:44
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

They recieved the spirit by hearing the word

Ephesians 3:2

This only would I learn of you,Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
"or by the hearing of faith"

Let's recap peter says in acts 10

ACTS 10:35
"But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him"

HE also says in Matthew 10

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.



So you had to work righteousness(works) and you had to endure to the end(works)

Paul says just believing is necessary for achieving and maintaining salvation.
Peter as well as the twelve preach salvation is achieved and maintained through works

Romans 11:6

11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

You guys just pick and choose the scriptures that you want to believe and the ones that you don't want to believe you just ignore.

Here is what Paul preached to the people in Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch.
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

What do you do with what Paul told the Corinthians in 1Cor 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Or what he told the Colossians.
Col 1:21-23 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

How about what he said to the Romans?
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Anyone can develop a belief and then go to the Word and try to prove it. You will not have a hard time finding scriptures to back it up, the problem is that there will be a pile of other scriptures that refute your belief. The Bible does not contradict itself therefore it there are scriptures that contradict what you believe then what you believe isn't truth.

Paul, Peter, and all of the rest of the apostles preached the same message. There is only one name given among men whereby we must be saved. The gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ to the Jew and to the Gentile.

GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

Amen....Paul says that salvation is no more by works....wow...I would say thats a BIG CHANGE!!!!

Salvation has never been by works. It is ridiculous to think that someone could ever get to heaven by good works. Salvation has always been by faith and works follows after. Without works faith is of no affect. Paul says the same thing in Eph 2:8-10. We are created unto good works and God has ordained that we walk in them. If I say that I have faith in Christ but my works deny him then my faith is useless and in vain. That is what Paul told the Corinthians, Colossians, Galatians, in fact everybody he preached to he said the same thing.

GLJCA

 

[nwmsugrad]

Paul preached that works is no longer required for salvation

No has been, is or will ever be saved by works. Gods allowance for salvation by good works has always been the same: He requires absolute perfection (Luke 10:28). No one has or will ever meet this standard.


Isaiah 55:1 (NASB95)
1 “Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.

Psalm 103:10 (NASB95)
10 He has not dealt with us according to our sins, Nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Romans 3:25 (NASB95)
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Genesis 15:6 (NASB95)
6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Romans 9:31-33 (NASB95)
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33 just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Salvation has and will always be by faith alone.

 

[GLJCA]

No has been, is or will ever be saved by works. Gods allowance for salvation by good works has always been the same: He requires absolute perfection (Luke 10:28). No one has or will ever meet this standard.


Isaiah 55:1 (NASB95)
1 “Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.

Psalm 103:10 (NASB95)
10 He has not dealt with us according to our sins, Nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Romans 3:25 (NASB95)
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Genesis 15:6 (NASB95)
6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Romans 9:31-33 (NASB95)
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33 just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Salvation has and will always be by faith alone.

Very good post NWMSUGRAD. Is that Northwestern Michigan grad?

I don't understand how these guys can even think that the Old Testament saints could possible have been saved by works. It really doesn't make sense, because no OT saint would have made it. Jesus Christ is the only one to ever live a sinless life in full accordance with the law. Hebrews 11 shows that faith in the OT was and always has been the criteria for salvation.

These guys are just trying to make their doctrine work so they have to make these statements. You see their whole premise falls apart if salvation was and is by faith amongst the Old Testament and New Testament Jewish people.

GLJCA

 

[sanct1fym3]

Amen!! Faith aquires salvation, works has nothing to do with salvation itself, once saved, works act as a visual outward sign of an inner change, nothing else.

 

[eph3Nine]

Salvation has never been by works. It is ridiculous to think that someone could ever get to heaven by good works. Salvation has always been by faith and works follows after. Without works faith is of no affect. Paul says the same thing in Eph 2:8-10. We are created unto good works and God has ordained that we walk in them. If I say that I have faith in Christ but my works deny him then my faith is useless and in vain. That is what Paul told the Corinthians, Colossians, Galatians, in fact everybody he preached to he said the same thing.

GLJCA

Faith PLUS works as a demonstration of their faith WAS how people under the Kingdom program WERE saved. Paul wouldnt be able to say that it is no longer by works if at some time those works werent part of the equation. They WERE! The works didnt save them, but faith PLUS works certainly did. It was REQUIRED by God under Israels program.

 

[eph3Nine]

No has been, is or will ever be saved by works. Gods allowance for salvation by good works has always been the same: He requires absolute perfection (Luke 10:28). No one has or will ever meet this standard.


Isaiah 55:1 (NASB95)
1 “Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.

Psalm 103:10 (NASB95)
10 He has not dealt with us according to our sins, Nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Romans 3:25 (NASB95)
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Genesis 15:6 (NASB95)
6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Romans 9:31-33 (NASB95)
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33 just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Salvation has and will always be by faith alone.

Nope...sorry...that dog wont hunt. James says that faith without works is DEAD. Israels program REQUIRED them to demonstrate their faith by DOING whatever God told them to DO...baptism, circumcision, making animal sacrifices for their sins once a year, etc etc. If they didnt DO what God required of them to show that they HAD faith...they werent considered saved. Look at Cain and Abel. One did, one didnt. One was accepted ,one was NOT.

NOW, under the dispensation of the GRACE of God...it is Grace alone by faith alone in the finished work of Christ alone...NO works involved in the salvation process AT ALL!

That plan came ONLY thru Pauls MYSTERY revelation and is the difference between Judaism and Christianity.

 

[eph3Nine]

Amen!! Faith aquires salvation, works has nothing to do with salvation itself, once saved, works act as a visual outward sign of an inner change, nothing else.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[nwmsugrad]

NOW, under the dispensation of the GRACE of God...it is Grace alone by faith alone in the finished work of Christ alone...NO works involved in the salvation process AT ALL!

I disagree with your statement. Scripture teaches the following:

Under every dispensation Salvation is due to the grace of God…it is Grace alone by faith alone in the finished work of Christ alone...NO works involved in the salvation process AT ALL!

Doesn’t Paul make this clear in Romans?

Romans 4:9-12 (NASB95)
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.”
10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
Doesn’t this passage make it clear the Abraham was saved by faith alone without any works involved in the salvation process just as we are saved?

If believing Jews decided not to make animal sacrifices for their sins on the day of atonement they would still be saved because their salvation has nothing to do with works.

If you or I decide to deny our Lord, shipwreck our faith, fall into apostasy, we are still saved because our salvation has nothing to do with works (2 Tim 2:13).


As a saved non-Jew whose salvation is guaranteed by God’s promise that whoever believes in His Son has eternal life, if I say go in peace to a saved but literally starving brother in Christ ignoring his obvious needs that I could easily meet, will may faith save me from Hell? (Yes or No?) Will my faith save me from my Fathers discipline (Yes or No?) If I treated my brother in this terrible manner wouldn’t it be fair to call my faith useless? Couldn’t it be described as dead?

Question: In your opinion is the Prodigal son a wayward believer or a unbeliever?

 

[sanct1fym3]

I disagree with your statement. Scripture teaches the following:

Under every dispensation Salvation is due to the grace of God…it is Grace alone by faith alone in the finished work of Christ alone...NO works involved in the salvation process AT ALL!

Doesn’t Paul make this clear in Romans?

Romans 4:9-12 (NASB95)
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.”
10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
Doesn’t this passage make it clear the Abraham was saved by faith alone without any works involved in the salvation process just as we are saved?

If believing Jews decided not to make animal sacrifices for their sins on the day of atonement they would still be saved because their salvation has nothing to do with works.

If you or I decide to deny our Lord, shipwreck our faith, fall into apostasy, we are still saved because our salvation has nothing to do with works (2 Tim 2:13).


As a saved non-Jew whose salvation is guaranteed by God’s promise that whoever believes in His Son has eternal life, if I say go in peace to a saved but literally starving brother in Christ ignoring his obvious needs that I could easily meet, will may faith save me from Hell? (Yes or No?) Will my faith save me from my Fathers discipline (Yes or No?) If I treated my brother in this terrible manner wouldn’t it be fair to call my faith useless? Couldn’t it be described as dead?

Question: In your opinion is the Prodigal son a wayward believer or a unbeliever?

Exactly right, Can jesus be crucified again? Works are incredibly important in our christian walks though, we are representing a christ and a true God (true christ too lol). anyways as a representative of christianity we need to realize that people watch us and if they SEE no works then what do they assume about our faith DEAD!! I cringe at writing this and think of my interaction with non-believers during High School.

But that's not the point, i think the P. Son is a believer. There are still consequences for leaving, but we are always welcome back.

 

[eph3Nine]

Grad wrote:

As a saved non-Jew whose salvation is guaranteed by God’s promise that whoever believes in His Son has eternal life, if I say go in peace to a saved but literally starving brother in Christ ignoring his obvious needs that I could easily meet, will may faith save me from Hell? (Yes or No?) Will my faith save me from my Fathers discipline (Yes or No?) If I treated my brother in this terrible manner wouldn’t it be fair to call my faith useless? Couldn’t it be described as dead?

Question: In your opinion is the Prodigal son a wayward believer or a unbeliever?

Herein lies the problem. YOU are not saved by believing in the name of the Son of God. BELIEVING JEWS were, under the KINGDOM program, but that offer is no longer on the table.

If you saw a brother in need today and didnt do anything, it wouldnt affect your standing with God ONE IOTA. Why? because YOUR right standing with God isnt dependent on what YOU do, but on what HE DID. Your righteousness has been IMPUTED unto you as you have been placed BY THE HOLY SPIRIT INTO HIS BODY,and the ONLY claim to fame with reference to HOLINESS or righteousness that you HAVE is due to your being IN the righteous ONE. See below:

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

We are NOT in the same program you are supposing yourself to be a part of. Are you aware of that?

 

[nwmsugrad]

BELIEVING JEWS were, under the KINGDOM program, but that offer is no longer on the table.

I would agree that the gospel of the kingdom is not the same thing as the gospel Paul preached. I only have a limited understanding of your form of dipensationalism and would like to grasp your viewpoint.

If I was a saved Jew today would I do better to follow the guidelines of Hebrews and James or the writings of Paul?

Was the gospel of John written to the Church or the Jews and is promoting the gospel of the Kingdom the primary purpose of Johns gospel?

Regarding James lets assume your position is correct and James is not relevant to the church today: I would like to discuss the passage under those conclusions. To start off I would ask: is the Prodigal son a wayward believer or a unbeliever?

 

[eph3Nine]

I would agree that the gospel of the kingdom is not the same thing as the gospel Paul preached. I only have a limited understanding of your form of dipensationalism and would like to grasp your viewpoint.

If I was a saved Jew today would I do better to follow the guidelines of Hebrews and James or the writings of Paul?

A saved Jew (there actually is no jew and gentile today, as the favored status Israel enjoyed has been removed in this age of GRACE) today would follow the writings of Paul. And he wouldnt be SAVED unless he believed PAULS gospel in 1 Cor 15:1-4.

Today, God has "concluded ALL (jew and gentile) in UNBELIEF so that He might have mercy upon ALL." So, today, there is no special status for the Jew...he is as all other "nations" in that he is "lo ammi" (not my people) to God in this dispensation.

The two (jew and gentile) are made ONE(thru the baptism found in Eph 4:5 which places BOTH of them into ONE body, and they become the church of this age, which is His BODY)...thru the revelation given ONLY to Paul (which is the MYSTERY that was HID IN GOD, and KEPT SECRET, and NOT prophecy which was made KNOWN.)

Was the gospel of John written to the Church or the Jews and is promoting the gospel of the Kingdom the primary purpose of Johns gospel?

The gospel of John was written to the Kingdom Church, which was comprised of believing JEWS. John is a minister to the circumcision.

Regarding James lets assume your position is correct and James is not relevant to the church today: I would like to discuss the passage under those conclusions. To start off I would ask: is the Prodigal son a wayward believer or a unbeliever?

James is a minister of the circumcision. That means his words are to believing JEWS.

Lets stick to the issues here. Did God not have a program with the nation Israel? Was it not called JUDAISM and did it not have to do with the law of Moses and Prophecy?

Did God not Set aside the nation with her program and usher in something NEW? Keep in mind that Peter still preached the KINGDOM message AFTER the resurrection of Christ...the Kingdom program was still in full swing...NO Body of Christ teaching found in acts 2...it was the same church that was already THERE, and it was JEWISH.

If you could take ONE thing at a time...then we can discuss.

Have you HEARD of the dispensation of the GRACE of God, which before was HID IN GOD and KEPT SECRET?

What did you believe for your salvation? Peters gospel isnt available to us, so what did you believe to be saved?

Also...ALL scripture is for our learning, but not all scripture is written TO us or About us. Without the letters to Paul, you would have a totally JEWISH book with nothing having to do with the Body of Christ or any of the fourteen doctrines delivered to Paul for we who ARE the Body.

The Body of Christ was original with PAUL...Peter knew nothing of it as he wasnt commissioned to give that message.

 

[nwmsugrad]

A saved Jew (there actually is no jew and gentile today, as the favored status Israel enjoyed has been removed in this age of GRACE) today would follow the writings of Paul. And he wouldnt be SAVED unless he believed PAULS gospel in 1 Cor 15:1-4.

John is a minister to the circumcision.

James is a minister of the circumcision.

So, today, there is no special status for the Jew...he is as all other "nations" in that he is "lo ammi" (not my people) to God in this dispensation.

Question: Can you identify the exact period in time that the Jew lost his special status? Was the book of Revelations written before or after this period in time? What dispensation do the seven churches in Revelations fall under?

What did you believe for your salvation? Peters gospel isn’t available to us, so what did you believe to be saved?

From your viewpoint I am apparently confused about the gospel since I do not make a distinction between the gospel that Paul preached and the gospel that John preached. In my mind I Cor 15:1-4, Acts 16:31, John 5:24, John 6:47, Acts 28:23-28 all teach the same message of salvation by faith alone in Christ alone.

In I Tim 1:16 is Paul teaching something different that what John taught in John 6:47?

Can you explain How Paul’s gospel defended in Galatians and Romans is different that Johns gospel?

In Acts 15:11 doesn’t Peter say that He was saved the same way as Paul’s Gentile converts were? What does Peter mean by that statement?

 

[rightlydividingtheword]

Romans 4:4

Romans 4:4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

That reward Paul is taliking about is Justification (right standing with God)

"the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt"

Grace : unmerited favor(no work involved)
If it's not reckoned(attributed) of grace. The word is explicit it says "of debt"
You Owe!

It's been proven man couldn't keep the law,why then would anyone say"you have to live righteous to enter into heaven"?

You cant do it.
Israel failed and you will also
.
James 2:10
2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all

"and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all"


You try to attain or maintain your salvation through works, you will fail!!!




This is where imputed righteousness comes in to play, we just believe and god's imputes righteousness without works(God's Grace)

Why are we so ungrateful?
God dispenses grace(unmerited favor) and now we say"I must live holy in order to maintain my salvation"

Galations 2:21
2:21

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain



"frustrate the grace of God" that's what you do when you try to work to maintain your salvation.
You achieve and maintain it by believing only!!!!
That's all that's required!!!!! No works required here not to achieve or maintain it.


Ephesians 1:13-14
1:13)
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
1:14)
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

"ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" and until the redemption of the purchased possession",

You cant lose your salvation(god's grace) We without works have achieved justification without works.



Romans 4:6-7
4:6)
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
4:7)
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered

Thank God!!!!
For dispensing his grace fully in this age of Grace


Ephesians 3:1-3
3:1) For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
3:2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3:3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

 

[eph3Nine]

Question: Can you identify the exact period in time that the Jew lost his special status? Was the book of Revelations written before or after this period in time? What dispensation do the seven churches in Revelations fall under?

Acts 28:28 tells us that God stopped it right here. The entire book of Acts is a transitional one and shows NOT the beginning of the church which is His body , but of the falling of a NATION. Peters gospel and authority phasing OUT ,and Pauls gospel and authority phasing IN.

From your viewpoint I am apparently confused about the gospel since I do not make a distinction between the gospel that Paul preached and the gospel that John preached. In my mind I Cor 15:1-4, Acts 16:31, John 5:24, John 6:47, Acts 28:23-28 all teach the same message of salvation by faith alone in Christ alone.

No, actually they teach totally differrent messages. Please see the threads entitled "the Three churches in Scripture", and then look for detailed accounts of each church in three separate threads, to see what gospel and church we belong to. I would say you ARE confused about the gospel that saves today, as it wasnt the same as that which Peter and the boys preached, or even Christ in His earthly ministry.


I have a book entitled "God HAD a Secret" which might interest you in your studies. Would be happy to mail it to you so you can see what this MYSTERY program consists of and how we would have a totally JEWISH BIBLE without the one hundred pages in the middle that comprise Pauls letters. Its FREE, as well as study booklets which will show you the 14 doctrines NOT FOUND ANYWHERE but in Pauls epistles, and one that shows the DRASTIC differences with scriptural support of course, between Israels law program and OUR grace program. ALL FREE....PM me with your mailing addy and I will mail them tomorrow.

This material gives a detailed account with accompanying scriptural proofs of the CURRENT program God initiated which HE SAYS was before (before it was given to Paul for we the Body of Christ) HID IN GOD< and Kept SECRET. Israels program was laid out amid much detail, and their prophetic program of the KINGDOM Gospel was MADE KNOWN. See the difference between HID< and SECRET, and then "made KNOWN"??????

Israel was JUDAISM. It had to do with the LAW of Moses. It was PROPHESIED, and it was to the Jew as the favored nation to believe FIRST, and then to take it to all the other nations. She never believed as a NATION , but sent her promised King and MESSIAH into EXILE while God put into play His SECRET MYSTERY program NOT FOUND IN PROPHECY.......yeeee haw.

You would have no mention of the Body of Christ, Gods purpose or plan in the heavenlies, the explanation of and doctrine of the finished work of the Cross and ten or more OTHER doctrines specifically given to Paul , for US today, without this MYSTERY message being made known in due time.

Peter and the 12 didnt know about it. Christ in His earthly ministry didnt speak of it. When God set aside the Nation, and revealed this NEW information to Paul, was when CHRISTIANITY began. Paul was the first member of the Body of Christ.

There are many threads here that have already exhausted this information. You may want to spend some quality time reading and studying to see if what we are saying is so.

In I Tim 1:16 is Paul teaching something different that what John taught in John 6:47?

Yes, he certainly IS!
1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Here is the MYSTERY program. Paul is FIRST in this NEW thing never before seen or delivered unto man. God will make a NEW CREATION out of twain..Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (two being of Jew and gentile)

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. The Jews were to believe on the name of Jesus AS their PROPHESIED MESSIAH. NO death , burial and resurrection here, but a scheduled , upcoming , expected event of a MESSIAH to the NATION.

Both have everlasting life as the goal. But differing paths to walk and different audiences.

Can you explain How Paul’s gospel defended in Galatians and Romans is different that Johns gospel?

One was Prophetic and having to do with the circumcision/Gods earthly program

One has to do with the MYSTERY/having to do with the UNcircumcision/Gods heavenly program.

NOT the same gospel at ALL!

In Acts 15:11 doesn’t Peter say that He was saved the same way as Paul’s Gentile converts were? What does Peter mean by that statement?

This has already been discussed here at length. We, the Body of Christ, dont get our doctrine from ACTS. It is a transitional book that shows the fall of a NATION. The phasing OUT of Gods program with Israel and the phasing IN of the MYSTERY program given to Paul. The entire context must be studied to see its meaning. Faith has always been the criteria...however, God told Peter and the 12 to trust in different things to demonstrate that faith. Peter was shown in the incident with Cornelius that God was indeed doing something NEW. Cornelius was a gentile and God told Peter to go to him...which was a NO NO...ya didnt just saunter up to a gentile with JEWISH INFORMATION...Peter knew that and argued with God about it. Cornelius was saved (not by the grace message but by the ONLY game that was in town...the KINGDOM MESSAGE/law of Moses) but the change came in the fact that he received the Spirit BEFORE he was water baptized.For the Jew, they were required to be water baptized in accordance with their being a NATION of Priests and then they were given the Spirit. It was still a very Jewish program here, and had NOTHING to do with we the Body of Christ. WE were part of the MYSTERY information given ONLY to Paul. Peter was still preaching repent and be baptized and never mentioned the death, burial and resurrection to these guys for their salvation.

 

[sanct1fym3]

I have a quick Q, how does the shift in the ministry of jesus affect the church?

 

[eph3Nine]

I have a quick Q, how does the shift in the ministry of jesus affect the church?

Great Question! Hi again sanctifym3

I am assuming you are asking how Jesus EARTHLY ministry vs His ministry after He was Risen , affect the "church"?

Since the ONLY church existing during his earthly ministry was the KINGDOM CHURCH, consisting only of believing Jews (and proselytes), they weren't affected at all. If they were saved under Peters preaching of the gospel given to them, they stayed in that program.

Paul was given information from the RISEN Christ which actually is what BEGAN a NEW church. The church that began with the MYSTERY message and the saving of Paul, IS the church, which is His Body. This BODY didnt exist before, and is why it is called a NEW CREATION.

So we see in the book of ACTS, two churches existing simultaneously. One consisting of Jews believing the prophetic gospel concerning a promised Messiah and and an EARTHLY reign; and one consisting of jew and gentile alike believing a MYSTERY gospel concerning a NEW apostle, with new information for a NEW CREATION, with a heavenly calling and purpose.

Keep in mind that every time the word "church" is mentioned in scripture, it isnt referring to the Church, which is His Body. There are three mentions of the word CHURCH in the scriptures and they all refer to different audiences. God back over the threads here on "the three churches in scripture"...there are threads for each one of them. Print them out for study...its a really good one.