The Difference Between Rhema vs Logos vs Graphe

dkbwarrior · Nov 30, 2011

12For the word of God is alive,
and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,
and of the joints and marrow,
and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12

Markus6 · Nov 30, 2011

dkbwarrior said:
12For the word of God is alive,

and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,
and of the joints and marrow,
and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

-Hebrews 4:12

As has been mentioned one of the main questions here is whether this verses refers to the scriptures. I don't think anyone has actually tried to exegete the passage in context to show that it does. On face value there is nothing explicitly in the passage, or its context, that states it is refering to scripture.

dkbwarrior · Nov 30, 2011

Markus6 said:
As has been mentioned one of the main questions here is whether this verses refers to the scriptures. I don't think anyone has actually tried to exegete the passage in context to show that it does. On face value there is nothing explicitly in the passage, or its context, that states it is refering to scripture.

Agreed.

Most believe this is referring to the written Word of God, what we call the scriptures. Some others believe it is talking of the person, Jesus. I believe it is referring to both.

This is not a hard leap for me, because if the Spoken Word (that which was in turn written down in the form of scripture) is the manner in which Jesus proceeded forth from God, then the scriptures are simply Jesus in seed form. Therfore they are both the Word. They are both alive. And they are both eternal.

Peace...

probinson · Nov 30, 2011

dkbwarrior said:
12For the word of God is alive,
and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,
and of the joints and marrow,
and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12

Here's another translation of that same scripture;

Hebrews 4:12 (AMP)
For the Word that God speaks is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] spirit, and of joints and marrow [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart.

Certainly we know from 2 Timothy that the Bible contains the inspired words that God has already spoken, but God is still speaking to us today. Those words that God speaks, whether contained in the Bible or spoken to us today, are alive and full of power.

And NOW I'll go back to lurking... maybe.

TasManOfGod · Nov 30, 2011

Forgive the intrusion but an interpretation that limits that passage to words spoken by God and does not include God inspired words spoken by man surely limits the effectiveness of the Word

K2K · Nov 30, 2011

dkbwarrior said:
12For the word of God is alive,

and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,
and of the joints and marrow,
and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

-Hebrews 4:12

ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL VERSE!!!

OBVIOUSLY A BOOK [ANY BOOK] CAN NOT DISCERN WHAT SOMEONE IS THINKING OR WHAT SOMEONE'S INTENT IS, ONLY THE LORD CAN DO THAT.

THAT IS WHY THE LORD IS THE WORD OF GOD WE PREACH!!

He is indeed -- "a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart"

patience7 · Nov 30, 2011

K2K said:
ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL VERSE!!!

OBVIOUSLY A BOOK [ANY BOOK] CAN NOT DISCERN WHAT SOMEONE ISOR WHAT SOMEONE'S INTENT IS, ONLY THE LORD CAN DO THAT.

THAT IS WHY THE LORD IS THE WORD OF GOD WE PREACH!!

He is indeed -- "a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart"

Yep it is a great verse and no a "book" cannot be a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart but God's logos/rhema written in scripture gives us knowledge that enables us to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.

K2K · Nov 30, 2011

TasManOfGod said:
Forgive the intrusion but an interpretation that limits that passage to words spoken by God and does not include God inspired words spoken by man surely limits the effectiveness of the Word

Words - no mater whether written or spoken are a discerner!

Words can not judge, only beings can judge, and discernment requires a judgement. A discerner is someone, not something, that judges one thing from another.

The Word of God is the Lord!! He is a discerner!!

Again that is why I pointed that Who is on first base. Only a 'who' can discern. A book might help you discern, but a book can not discern. You could say that reading your Bible helps you discern, but the verse is explaining that Jesus Christ (the One whose name is called The Word of God) discerns. He is a discerner!!

Because He is able to discern, we should talk to Him and listen to what He has to say.

TasManOfGod · Nov 30, 2011

K2K said:
Words - no mater whether written or spoken are a discerner!

Words can not judge, only beings can judge, and discernment requires a judgement. A discerner is someone, not something, that judges one thing from another.

The Word of God is the Lord!! He is a discerner!!

Again that is why I pointed that Who is on first base. Only a 'who' can discern. A book might help you discern, but a book can not discern. You could say that reading your Bible helps you discern, but the verse is explaining that Jesus Christ (the One whose name is called The Word of God) discerns. He is a discerner!!

Because He is able to discern, we should talk to Him and listen to what He has to say.

Look What I know is that if I mention "the blood of Jesus" demons tremble. Frankly I dont care who discerning what

K2K · Nov 30, 2011

patience7 said:
Yep it is a great verse and no a "book" cannot be a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart but God's logos/rhema written in scripture gives us knowledge that enables us to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Certainly there alot of wonderful verses, proverbs, sayings, parables, and such written in the Bible. But is it our thinking and our interpretation of the verses that really gives us true understanding?

The Scriptures explain that the Lord will speak to us. If we seek Him, we can find Him. That's a promise. We preach Jesus Christ, to mean that you can have a personal relationship with Him. If you know someone, don't you talk to them. If you know God, don't you ask Him about things? And if He is with you, won't you listen to Him?

There are sayings (rhema - unterances) spoken to other by God, written down and translated into a language we can understand printed in your Bible. But we get understanding of those things written by listening to the One who originally spoken them.

He is alive, and He is a discerner. We can listen to Him, because He is alive. He is the Word of God we are preaching. We who know Him preach Jesus Christ, because we know Him. And because we know Him, we want others to know Him also.

You can get to know Him (Jesus Christ) whose name is called the Word of God because you can have conversation with Him.

Prov 2:6 For the Lord gives wisdom; from His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

Jesus said His sheep hear His voice. You can have a conversation and get wisdom from the Creator of all things. So what is the best piece of advice I could give to someone, if not to tell them to talk to the One who created everything.

So I explain to others that they can get to know Jesus Christ (The Word of God) by seeking and listen to Him. But someone else says we have to live by out understanding of the Scriptures, as if He wasn't with us to be inquired of.

So I say read the Scriptures and ask Him for their meaning, but if someone doesn't believe that He is indeed with us, can they accept what I say. Still we preach Jesus Christ and not that He is far off in heaven somewhere but that He is our Lord with us. The Word is near us, on our heart and on our lips. That is the Word of God we are preaching. That is you confess Jesus Christ as Lord, and you confess that because He gives you instructions, and believe God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

The verse :

For the word of God is alive,
and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,
and of the joints and marrow,
and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12

Does not mean read the Scriptures and lean on your understanding of them. It means listen to the Lord and listen to His understanding about everything, and especially about problems with your heart. He is a very personal God. He wants to help you, and part of helping you is reproving you an disciplining you. He can do that be He (The Word of God) is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of your heart!!

Rev 3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

He is called the Word of God because anyone can hear His voice. If you seek Him to hear from Him, He reproves and disciplines you. People don't want discipline and reproof, so people don't want to listen to Him.

Reading about Him is ok, you can interpret it as you wish. Yet if you are really willing to listen to Him, He will reprove you and correct you, (very nicely but He will still do it), and He is a discerner of your heart. The words He speaks to you indeed pierce you. If the written words truely pierced the reader, the Pharisees wouldn't have acted like they did. They studied the Scriptures, but didn't listen to Him.

So study the Scriptures and listen to Him for the interpretation. Yet don't only listen to Him only concerning the Scriptures, you need Him involved in all parts of your life. Don't lean on your own understanding. Make Him a Wonderful Counselor in all parts of your life!!

patience7 · Nov 30, 2011

K2K said:
K2K said:

Certainly there alot of wonderful verses, proverbs, sayings, parables, and such written in the Bible. But is it our thinking and our interpretation of the verses that really gives us true understanding?

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The Holy Spirit leads us to understanding as we read.

The Scriptures explain that the Lord will speak to us. If we seek Him, we can find Him. That's a promise. We preach Jesus Christ, to mean that you can have a personal relationship with Him. If you know someone, don't you talk to them. If you know God, don't you ask Him about things? And if He is with you, won't you listen to Him?

Click to expand...

I communicate daily with God and He also speaks to me. Not any GREAT revelation but He helps me when I need Him.

There are sayings (rhema - unterances) spoken to other by God, written down and translated into a language we can understand printed in your Bible. But we get understanding of those things written by listening to the One who originally spoken them.

Click to expand...

Yep - the Holy Spirit is our teacher - he leads us and guides us unto all truth.

He is alive, and He is a discerner. We can listen to Him, because He is alive. He is the Word of God we are preaching. We who know Him preach Jesus Christ, because we know Him. And because we know Him, we want others to know Him also.

Click to expand...

We have been given the written word for knowledge to enable us to discern.

You can get to know Him (Jesus Christ) whose name is called the Word of God because you can have conversation with Him.

Prov 2:6 For the Lord gives wisdom; from His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

Jesus said His sheep hear His voice. You can have a conversation and get wisdom from the Creator of all things. So what is the best piece of advice I could give to someone, if not to tell them to talk to the One who created everything.

So I explain to others that they can get to know Jesus Christ (The Word of God) by seeking and listen to Him. But someone else says we have to live by out understanding of the Scriptures, as if He wasn't with us to be inquired of.

So I say read the Scriptures and ask Him for their meaning, but if someone doesn't believe that He is indeed with us, can they accept what I say. Still we preach Jesus Christ and not that He is far off in heaven somewhere but that He is our Lord with us. The Word is near us, on our heart and on our lips. That is the Word of God we are preaching. That is you confess Jesus Christ as Lord, and you confess that because He gives you instructions, and believe God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Click to expand...

I don't believe anyone is saying that we cannot receive knowledge directly from God.

The verse :

For the word of God is alive,
and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,
and of the joints and marrow,
and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12

Does not mean read the Scriptures and lean on your understanding of them. It means listen to the Lord and listen to His understanding about everything, and especially about problems with your heart. He is a very personal God. He wants to help you, and part of helping you is reproving you an disciplining you. He can do that be He (The Word of God) is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of your heart!!

Rev 3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

He is called the Word of God because anyone can hear His voice. If you seek Him to hear from Him, He reproves and disciplines you. People don't want discipline and reproof, so people don't want to listen to Him.

Reading about Him is ok, you can interpret it as you wish. Yet if you are really willing to listen to Him, He will reprove you and correct you, (very nicely but He will still do it), and He is a discerner of your heart. The words He speaks to you indeed pierce you. If the written words truely pierced the reader, the Pharisees wouldn't have acted like they did. They studied the Scriptures, but didn't listen to Him.

So study the Scriptures and listen to Him for the interpretation. Yet don't only listen to Him only concerning the Scriptures, you need Him involved in all parts of your life. Don't lean on your own understanding. Make Him a Wonderful Counselor in all parts of your life!!

Click to expand...

I will continue to read and study the scripture because I believe we have them for doctrine, reproof, and correction for instruction in righteousness and I will continue to have communication with my heavenly Father daily.

K2K · Dec 1, 2011

patience7 said:
The Holy Spirit leads us to understanding as we read.

I communicate daily with God and He also speaks to me. Not any GREAT revelation but He helps me when I need Him.

Yep - the Holy Spirit is our teacher - he leads us and guides us unto all truth.

We have been given the written word for knowledge to enable us to discern.

I don't believe anyone is saying that we cannot receive knowledge directly from God.

I will continue to read and study the scripture because I believe we have them for doctrine, reproof, and correction for instruction in righteousness and I will continue to have communication with my heavenly Father daily.

Click to expand...

YES -- THIS IS ALL PRETTY WELL SAID! AND IT'S NICE TO HEAR!

Just two comments - The Scriptures can be used by the Lord to help us discern. The Pharisess read and studied the Scriptures and didn't have discernment - so it's not exactly the Scriptures (the Written Word if you like) that give us discernment but the Lord who often uses the Scriptures to teach us discernment.

So please do read and study the scriptures. If you wern't, and you can read and have access to them, I'd wonder if you were hearing from the Lord. Still not all that read the Scriptures hear from the Lord like your are doing.

The second commit concerns "I don't believe anyone is saying that we cannot receive knowledge directly from God.

The Pharisees felt they knew God because they read the Scriptures, and the Galatians had heard God call them, but turned from hearing with faith to works of the Law. Probably both the Pharisees and the Galatians felt they received knowledge direct from God, but the Pharisees never did and the Galatians had turn away from doing that.

By this comment "I communicate daily with God and He also speaks to me. Not any GREAT revelation but He helps me when I need Him" it's easy to see that you are not having that problem, but others do.

You know the Who "Word of God" that is on first base. You hear from Him and so must turn to Him when you have problems. You must have specific words you have heard Him speak to you. The first words I ever heard Him speak to me were "READ YOUR BIBLE". And He had me open up a Bible bookstore and run it a couple of years before He had me give it to a Pastor in a town not too far away.

His sheep hear His voice, and we are telling people to get to know Him, which requires hearing from Him. You are doing that, but many are studying the Scriptures and thinking that is God speaking to them. They are not communicating daily with God as in hearing Him speak words to them when they need help. So they turn to the Scriptures and lean on their own understanding of the Scriptures instead of turning to hear by faith what advice the Lord has for them.

I had a man walk up to me once and he told me that he needed to preach the Word of God and wanted to know if I had seen a book on it at the thrift store we were in. I then asked him if the Lord had told him what type of book to look for? He couldn't understand that the Lord could or would talk to him. So he asked me if I thought I could hear from the Lord. When I told him I could, he called me a liar. He didn't believe that people could hear the Lord speaking to them today, though he believe that he needed to preach the Word of God. How did that happen?

To that man preaching the Word of God meant preaching the Bible. The Bible was the only Word of God he knew about, but he knew that we are supposed to preach the Word of God. He wasn't turning people to the Lord Jesus Christ who we can hear from via the Spirit of God.

Jn 16:13 when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak in His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

God is one, so perhaps this is not so important. But while the Spriit talks to us, the words He says to us are not His but the Lord's Jesus Christ's. The Father gave all things (including His words) to the Son. The Son the tells the Sprit what to speak to us and the Spirit tells them to us.

So Jesus Christ is called the Word of God because the Father gave the Son His words. The very words of the Father belong to the Son. The Son then has the Spirit tell you them. The Spirit does not glorigy Himself, but the Son.

Many people are saying the Holy Spirit talks to them, and so He may. But the Spirit of God is trying to glorify the Son Jesus Christ. He does it by simply passing on what the Son tells Him to pass on.

There is a problem we should be aware of, though it might not actually be a problem; just be aware of it to make sure it is not. The Spirit of God is not the only spirit. Demons might show up as a spirit of light. They might say, "I am the Holy Spirit"!

My mother knows the Lord, but her sister is a high preistest in a new age movement. Her sister says the Holy Spirit talks to her, but doesn't proclaim Jesus Christ is Lord. She seems to think Jesus is dead or far off in heaven somewhere. That is not the Word we are preaching (See Rm 10)

Jesus Christ is our Lord, and to say that the Word is dead is to bring Christ up from the grave, and to say the Word is far off in heaven is to bring Christ down, the Word of God is near, in our heart and on our lips, so that we proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that God raise Him from the dead.

So while the Spirit does speak to us the words of God, those words belong to the Son, and the Spirit glorifies the Son. We enter into a personal relationship with the Son Jesus Christ and know Him as our Lord, thanks to the work of the Spirit.

So who is the Teacher, who is the Word of God, and who is our Lord? We preach Jesus Christ and are followers of Him. That is what the Spirit wants and why He speaks only what He is told.

dkbwarrior · Dec 1, 2011

9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God,
that ye may keep your own tradition.
10For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and,
Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother,
It is Corban, that is to say, a gift,
by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
he shall be free.
12And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition,
which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
-Mark 7:9-13

Jesus called Moses writings from 3,000 years before this time the Word of God. Gods Words don't die when they leave His lips, they are alive forever; and when the time was fulfilled, those Words took on flesh and walked this earth as the Son of God, Jesus Christ our Lord. The scriptures are the Word of God, and they are alive.

Peace...

K2K · Dec 1, 2011

dkbwarrior said:
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God,

that ye may keep your own tradition.
10For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and,
Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother,
It is Corban, that is to say, a gift,
by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
he shall be free.
12And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition,
which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
-Mark 7:9-13

Jesus called Moses writings from 3,000 years before this time the Word of God. Gods Words don't die when they leave His lips, they are alive forever; and when the time was fulfilled, those Words took on flesh and walked this earth as the Son of God, Jesus Christ our Lord. The scriptures are the Word of God, and they are alive.

Peace...

Those words did not take on flesh - He took on flesh!!

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God (Jn 1:1)

Indeed living by traditions, which is what we wind up doing when we lean on our understanding of the Scriptures instead of listening the Lord Word (He) who was in the beginning and is alive and active, even in our life today, is "Making the word of God of none effect".

We are not preaching some wierd sci-fi experience where words are living things, but we are preaching the Son Jesus Christ who is a living being and took on flesh!!!

dkbwarrior · Dec 1, 2011

K2K said:
Those words did not take on flesh - He took on flesh!!

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God (Jn 1:1)

Indeed living by traditions, which is what we wind up doing when we lean on our understanding of the Scriptures instead of listening the Lord Word (He) who was in the beginning and is alive and active, even in our life today, is "Making the word of God of none effect".

We are not preaching some wierd sci-fi experience where words are living things, but we are preaching the Son Jesus Christ who is a living being and took on flesh!!!

However you want to phrase it, makes no matter to me. But Jesus clearly called the writings of Moses the Word of God, just as Paul did when writing to Timothy. Gods Words are alive my friend, and they are eternal, even if for whatever reasons of your own you wish to deny it. And they are the seed that took on flesh in the womb of Mary and became the Son of God.

Jesus isn't called the Word of God because John thought that would be a nice religious name to give him that would confuse believers for the next 10 centuries and beyond. Jesus is called the Word of God because He is the Word that God spoken from the mouth of the Father into the earth that took on flesh in the womb of Mary and became Jesus. He is The Word of God. That Word was recorded in what we call the scriptures, the written Word of God.

Peace...

K2K · Dec 2, 2011

dkbwarrior said:
However you want to phrase it, makes no matter to me. But Jesus clearly called the writings of Moses the Word of God, just as Paul did when writing to Timothy. Gods Words are alive my friend, and they are eternal, even if for whatever reasons of your own you wish to deny it. And they are the seed that took on flesh in the womb of Mary and became the Son of God.

Jesus isn't called the Word of God because John thought that would be a nice religious name to give him that would confuse believers for the next 10 centuries and beyond. Jesus is called the Word of God because He is the Word that God spoken from the mouth of the Father into the earth that took on flesh in the womb of Mary and became Jesus. He is The Word of God. That Word was recorded in what we call the scriptures, the written Word of God.

Peace...

Paul never said God's words were alive. Yet because we so often call the Scriptures the Word of God, those who are living by their understanding of the Scriptures instead of by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God think where is it written the Word if alive means the Scriptures are alive.

It is Jesus Christ (the Word of God) that is alive. Someone talking and hearing His voice daily (though the Spirit of God), and living by His instructions to them, know Him as the Word of God. He is alive and that is what is written, but some don't understand.

Words are not alive, persons are alive. Jesus Christ is alive. God is alive in three person - Father, Son, Spirit. Jesus Christ is called the Word of God and He is alive. He said My sheep hear My voice. He is called the Word of God because His sheep hear His voice. He teaches them and gives them instructions. They wake up in the morning and hear from Him. They call Him Lord because He gives them instructions. He guides them daily with His voice.

Jn 10:3,4 To him the door keepr opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

Jn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD'

Verses like:

(Heb 4:12) For the word of God is alive,
and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,
and of the joints and marrow,
and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Do not mean the words of God are alive but He who is called the word of God is live. Words are not a He, but a person is a He. And He talks to us today, not just 2000 years ago. Just 5 verses before in Hebrews it is written:

"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS" (Heb 4:7)

In fact that is brought up with verse Heb 3:14 and Heb 3:7

"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS"

He speaks to us today, if you havn't harden your heart.

And in Hebrew 5:11 it is written:

"Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

It is hard to explain to someone who barely hears that He is called the Word of God. Even if you tell them He is alive today to be heard from, they can't understand. They usually feel that He left them the Scritpures because He doesn't talk to us much today. They say in their heart that He is either dead waiting to be resurrected or that He is far off in heaven and difficult to hear from. But the Word of God we preach is near us, in our hearts and in our mouth, so we can hear from Him. He gives us commands and instructions daily, so we confess Jesus Christ is our Lord.

So those that hear from Him recognize the His commands to us are what is spoken to us daily. His commands match up with the Scriptures, because He inspired their writting, but they are specific words spoken to us today, by Him who is alive. His sheep hear His voice and He guides us by those words He speaks.

He is alive, so listen to Him.

Alive_Again · Dec 2, 2011

This has all the earmarks of blinders on the eyes, while talking about the wonders of the ears.

We've been over every part of this and we go back again to the same elementary precepts about the Word and the Spirit. They are not the same. They agree but they are not the same. Their is a nourishment when we partake of the Word that is not the same as being filled with the Spirit.

Yet because we so often call the Scriptures the Word of God, those who are living by their understanding of the Scriptures instead of by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God think...

We have 2 camps of Christians:

"Those who are living by their understanding of the scriptures."
"Those who walk in the revelation of the scriptures, according to God's understanding (which is now their understanding)."

You can come in and out of either one, but why assume those who call the scriptures the "Word of God" live by their own carnal understanding?

Why can they not receive revelation line upon line? God births His Word within us as seed. Their is life within the seed. Their is power in the revealed Word. The growth of this planting has a time of release. We are to plant the Word within us (by submitting to preaching, meditation, praying the Word, etc.) and nurture it by coming into agreement with it in every way. The promises of God are birthed within and we do not walk in the full measure of their potential immediately. We must meditate in that Word day and night.

(This does not negate other forms of guidance or revelation.)

God does not say to your mind, "Turn left". "Turn right". "Get out of the car". "You forgot the keys", etc. (Occasionally He will!) We walk by faith. Revelation comes by all of your spiritual senses and when you walk in what you have, you get more. Revelation is the voice of the shepherd. "Voices" sometimes are the voice of the shepherd. More often than not, THEY ARE NOT.

He is alive and that is what is written, but some don't understand.

"That is what is written". There's a whole lot more written. We have revelation given to us through foundational apostles and prophets, and Jesus Himself, and it reveals the ways of the kingdom. God Himself quickens that written Word and imparts revelation. In this way, the "scriptures are alive" to us. Without the Spirit of God, they are dead to us. Truth is still truth no matter who believes it or not. God agrees with the truth and if He gave us His Word on something, we only have to come intro agreement with it and He empowers it. We are preaching as those who want to come into agreement with it.

There is power inherent in the Words of God. He has said so! They are not discerned by the unbeliever without ears.

They wake up in the morning and hear from Him. They call Him Lord because He gives them instructions. He guides them daily with His voice.

Yes, but not necessarily always a "speaking voice" you understand with your mind. Do you understand that?

Words limit God. God imparts truth into your spirit. You can hear more in a moments time than you can say in a year (if He so chooses). When God speaks English, He is doing that for our spiritual and (renewed) mental understanding. When He quickens the written Word, He does the same thing. We have the scriptures because truth never changes. The fruit of meditating on the scriptures for the seeker is faith, SO WE MUST BE HEARING (not voices in your mind).

Will you affirm this and leave behind the "walk according to their understanding of the scriptures" as though it's a carnal pursuit. We're the sheep here. We're not the goats. Baaa!

"Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

Hmmm!

They usually feel that He left them the Scritpures because He doesn't talk to us much today.

Who are they? He's the one who does the talking. Let Him do His ministry and we'll believe and acknowledge that He does. We'll do our part, I'm not going to say that He is not!

They say in their heart that He is either dead waiting to be resurrected or that He is far off in heaven and difficult to hear from.

God said that His sheep HEAR HIS VOICE. If this is so, then "They"
shouldn't say that He is not. Are you one of "they" because you're implying that we don't hear from Him? You've been banting around this "us and them" thing that is unseemly. You are also (unintentionally) implying that Jesus is not doing what He said He will do (and only He can do it).

He is alive, so listen to Him.

Listen to Him in the scriptures too, and when that happens, realize that this is what we are doing by instruction of the King Himself. It doesn't end there, but don't deny its importance because Jesus Himself gave the command.

You tend to minister confusion (to the unlearned) when you insist that God primarily leads by voices in your mind.

The Holy Spirit has been saying, "Feed on My Word", "Read the Word", "Speak the Word", "Meditate in the Word", etc. for years and the light is shining bright. Your suggestion that people listen to the voice of Jesus is a good one, but the you follow it with the voice of the stranger that ministers doubt and uncertainty (as though He isn't speaking).

Revelation is the voice of the Good Shepherd. He agrees with what He said. When you agree and receive what has been said, He ministers growth into the garden of your heart. It is often a process. The more you want to do His will, the more you "know" of the doctrine.

K2K · Dec 3, 2011

Alive_Again said:
You can come in and out of either one, but why assume those who call the scriptures the "Word of God" live by their own carnal understanding?

Is it me that is assuming?

My point is and has been that we need to listen to the Lord Jesus Christ!!

It's that simple and only that simple!!

I'm not concerned at all about anyone calling the Scriptures the "Word of God". The Bible is a book inspired by God and has many of His actual words in it. Yet Satans words are not God's words and Satan is also quoted, as are others. The Scriptures are a book He had written through others. Because He had it written you can call it the Word of God.

I have seen many that hear from the Lord very well that call the Bible the Word of God. Still the Word of we preach is not the Scriptures but the Lord. We are preaching Jesus Christ!! He is the Word of God we preach, and He is a who not an it. The Bible is an it, and not a who.

You have probably hear people say that we need a personal relationship with Jesus, and that is preaching the Word of God. If a personal relationship, it is a relationship with a person not a book. A relationship with a person is developed by having a conversation with that person. Reading a book that person wrote may tell you much about the person, but does not develope a personal relationship. Try picking up a book at a newstand, read it, then go over to the authors house for lunch. He will tell you "I never knew you".

As far as "come in and out ", you need to decide whether you message is telling people that they can get to know Him or not.

If your message is based upon a belief that He exists, then if someone is having problems you will get them to listen to Him because surely He is the best one to help them with their problem. Yet what happens? Do we tell people to listen to Him or listen to our explaination of what they need to do according to our interpretation of the Bible?

So I see preachers sometimes hold up their Bible and say "I am going to preach the Word of God", then give a long listen of advice about how the congregation needs to follow the advice he has, without a mention of being able to listen to the Lord who is with them.

I heard that, and lived most of my life without knowing the Lord. When I found out that I could hear from the Lord, it was such a shock. Nobody I had ever heard had made it clear that I might be able to hear from the Lord.

Sure they might sing a song, 'What a freind we have in Jesus', but then tell you how He lived 2000 years ago.

But He doesn't, He lives today. I talked to Him this morning in fact. I talk to Him everyday. I hear specific words He tells me everyday, and I don't see any reason why I am special, so I'm certain that everyone can hear from Him if they would just seek Him.

So now someone trie to tell me that I should agree that most kind of just pick Him up as a feeling instead of hearing specific words from Him. Well they are wrong in tell people that!! Maybe many do just pick Him up as a feeling. Those Moses brought to the foot of the mountain all heard His voice as thunder, but Moses heard specific words. You can hear Him that way, but when I try to tell you that, instead of listening to me and trying to hear from Him more and in specific words you whan to tell me I am against anyone that calls the Scriptures the Word of God. Try listening to Him more and you will start hearing what He says to you in specific words. You will get to know Him better and like Moses, instead of like all those that heard Him like thunder and said, 'don't let God talk to us'.

Most posting on this site call the Scriptures the Word of God, and many are hearing Him speak to them in word they understand. They should understand that we are preaching Him, because they hear from Him. Still even some of those have gone back to telling people to live by the rules layed out in the Scriptures instead of hearing Him by faith. That is why Paul wrote to the Galatians, and what Paul wrote to the Galatians is right on.

So are you telling people about Jesus Christ or the Scriptures?

Either way you will study the Scriptures. If you are preaching Jesus Christ, you will want to study the book He wrote just like if you get to know a very wise person, you will also want to read the book he wrote. And since the Lord is the Teacher, He is going to even ask you to read it if you can.

Still there are many people that study the Scriptures so they can tell everyone what God said, thereby puffing themselves up. They want people to listen to them, That is there desire. I want people to listen to this One I have come to know as a friend. That is my desire. So I preach Him and that He will talk to them.

He once told me this:

'LISTEN TO ME!! LISTEN TO ME!! -- KARL, WHY ARE THEY SAYING 'LISTEN TO ME', -- ISN'T IT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT LISTENING TO ME?

My friend if you were truly listening to Him like you should, your message to the people would be 'LISTEN TO HIM' - 'LISTEN TO HIM'.

That is my message, and that is why I preach Him as the Word of God, according to what is written in the Scriptures.

If you are not still sure about people hearing specfic words from Him let me suggest you go to the thread "Toronto Outpouring" and see SharonL second post about the poem and story behind it. Click on the link. She heard specific words from the Lord.

You don't have to wait for an outpouring though. He is always with you. Perhaps we need to get people to believe that, so they will listen to Him everyday. Then what would this world be like?

TasManOfGod · Dec 3, 2011

What seems to be missing K2K is reference of the importance of the Holy Spirit. This makes me and I would say others also wary about any truth in what you say

Alive_Again · Dec 4, 2011

My point is and has been that we need to listen to the Lord Jesus Christ!! It's that simple and only that simple!!

My point is that He does not limit His "voice" to a prophetic voice. The voice of the Good Shepherd goes way beyond that. It is important, but He chooses the manner in which we hear and are led. What's the point in reading the scriptures, if we can't have an encounter with Him? What's the point of praying to share His heart if we cannot be united in purpose. What's the point of teaching people that we already have the mind of Christ? To believe this and to partake by faith in His divine nature by believing in His Word?

When you preach things like: "Believe you have been given the mind of Christ. Submit and acknowledge this covenant promise." You are preaching Jesus because you are preaching and teaching what He said. If you don't have scripture to back it up, you are just spouting off on your own accord.

Because He had it written you can call it the Word of God.

Really?!!!

Still the Word of we preach is not the Scriptures but the Lord. We are preaching Jesus Christ!!

You can preach the scriptures and lead people to the Lord. We preach the Kingdom of God and the importance of repentance and faith. What you preach depends on who's listening and what they need.

Sometimes we specifically preach about the written Word of God because it is authoritative and God backs that up with a strong witness. Once you get that in your spirit, you can "hear" what is said in it without doubting. I personally love preaching about the integrity of God's written Word and that the Holy Spirit confirms that same Word. He loves it too because we can lay aside the many different voices preaching different ways. We can lay aside tradition and man's programs. It's the good news.

...it is a relationship with a person not a book.

I don't think anyone here would dispute that.

Try picking up a book at a newstand, read it, then go over to the authors house for lunch. He will tell you "I never knew you".

I'll think you find that any seeker of the Lord will discover that He'll meet you in the written Word to give you what you're hungering for -- understanding.

Yet what happens? Do we tell people to listen to Him or listen to our explaination of what they need to do according to our interpretation of the Bible?

If we speak under the anointing then we're going to draw people to Jesus. That's what He does as salt and light in the world. "Our explanation" would be the carnal part, or that which is only partly understood.

So I see preachers sometimes hold up their Bible and say "I am going to preach the Word of God", then give a long listen of advice about how the congregation needs to follow the advice he has, without a mention of being able to listen to the Lord who is with them.

The being able is only one aspect to preaching. If the advice he has is sound, using scriptural precepts and is spoken under the anointing, then it should be profitable for instruction in righteousness.

Nobody I had ever heard had made it clear that I might be able to hear from the Lord.

Understood. Hence your crusade. Just remember that God provides revelation in different ways. He decides and we just expect to partake of what we need, when we need it.

Sure they might sing a song, 'What a freind we have in Jesus', but then tell you how He lived 2000 years ago.

That's fine. He's still the same. That's the good news.

So now someone trie to tell me that I should agree that most kind of just pick Him up as a feeling instead of hearing specific words from Him. Well they are wrong in tell people that!!

I may have missed something, but I don't recall anyone saying anything about a feeling. We don't walk by feelings. If we're seeking the truth and are ready to do it, we'll hear His voice in whatever capacity He provides. Dreams, visions, gifts, inward witness, renewal of the mind according to the Word, the prophetic voice, the counsel of wisdom from the deposit of God's Word in your spirit, etc. Not to mention quickened words heard on the news, the newspaper, friends and brothers and sisters, quickened guidance from authority figures, television commercials, one-liners over heard from people you walk by, people I converse with on the forum, the five fold ministry, and so on. None of it should be diminished.

...instead of listening to me and trying to hear from Him more and in specific words...

I said this was a good word. It's not up to me to tell the Lord how He's going to speak. His Word says that His sheep hear His voice. It's up to me to incline and believe. He confirmed to me today that I do see and hear His Spirit in my life and that I do discern His voice.

...than to tell me I am against anyone that calls the Scriptures the Word of God.

You've talked about making the scriptures into a God or an idol. You've talked other "other people" who do this and that. You've implied that you can preach scripture and not preach Jesus. I suppose you mean without the anointing. (Who cares about that?) Although most certainly, the devil has sent his tares to the forum, for the most part most of us here in the charismatic section has chosen the Lord over the world and would like to think that we hear Him and look to the written Word to conform to His ways (as only He does).

You will get to know Him better and like Moses, instead of like all those that heard Him like thunder and said, 'don't let God talk to us'.

I was thinking of you this afternoon while the Lord was blessing my socks off with His mercy and grace. I know you mean very well and the Lord loves you very much. If you stayed with the admonition you're leading off with and forget what "other people do" and not imply that "lovers of the written Word" are off center, don't preach Jesus, or are misguided, you'll meet no resistance here.

Still even some of those have gone back to telling people to live by the rules layed out in the Scriptures instead of hearing Him by faith.

You can't really do it (the "rules") without His Spirit. You can preach the instruction manual for righteousness with a heart for God and hear Him and minister words of faith and love.

So are you telling people about Jesus Christ or the Scriptures?

I will stick by my answer that I have given many times.

Still there are many people that study the Scriptures so they can tell everyone what God said, thereby puffing themselves up. They want people to listen to them, That is there desire.

I want God to get all of the glory. That's usually what I read from others' posts too. It's a privilege to speak forth the Word of God and He wants us to boldly proclaim it.

My friend if you were truly listening to Him like you should, your message to the people would be 'LISTEN TO HIM' - 'LISTEN TO HIM'.

We point everyone to the King because we have no power of ourselves to transform lives. I'll leave it to Him to burden my heart with what He wants me to say.

Perhaps we need to get people to believe that, so they will listen to Him everyday. Then what would this world be like?

We'll just have to take Him at His Word to be able to do that.

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