The development of Rome...

[simonthezealot]

This thread is established to forward a discussion between myself and Isaiah 53 regarding the what I call developing doctrine of the Roman papacy. In essence we want to review whether it has always been known that Rome was THE universal authority...It's a takeoff of the formal debate involving MrPolo and myself...
Located here...
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7233352

My view is their are hundreds of writings in the first two centuries and without straining and pushing them out of their own context NO argument can be made for the Papacy.

 

[Isaiah 53]

This thread is established to forward a discussion between myself and Isaiah 53 regarding the what I call developing doctrine of the Roman papacy. In essence we want to review whether it has always been known that Rome was THE universal authority...It's a takeoff of the formal debate involving MrPolo and myself...
Located here...
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7233352

My view is their are hundreds of writings in the first two centuries and without straining and pushing them out of their own context NO argument can be made for the Papacy.

Without reviewing your previous debate, I would like to start the discussion with these passages of Scripture:


7 " 'Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD : 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the LORD : 10 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them. 11 " 'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice. (Ezekiel 34: 7-16)

And Jesus, the True Shepherd, did come and shepherd His flock, but just before He departed, He designated St. Peter the new Shepherd:

15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."

16 Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?"
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."

17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. (John 21:15-17)

Thoughts?

PAX

 

[simonthezealot]

One of the first posts by ISA was on the shepherd of Hermes
I believe his claim was that it said "his duty" and that indicated some type of authority. So I highlighted the red part...
242 THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS

3 Write, then, two small booklets, one for
Clement and one for Grapte. Clement will then send it
to the cities abroad since this is his duty, and Grapte will
instruct the widows and orphans. But you shall read it
to this city together with the Presbyters, who are in charge of
the church.

 

[simonthezealot]

And Jesus, the True Shepherd, did come and shepherd His flock, but just before He departed, He designated St. Peter the new Shepherd:

15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."

16 Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?"
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."

17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. (John 21:15-17)

Thoughts?

PAX

Isaiah this is simply a restoring of his apostleship thrice denied thrice restored.

No attachment to Rome...

 

[simonthezealot]

Not sure what your significance with the Ezekiel passage is but I do recall in previous chapters of Ezekiel I believe chapter 28 that one can recognize that the prince of Tyrus was making essentially a false claim of having God’s authority.
Maybe your trying to indicate shepherd means leader? No argument there.

 

[Isaiah 53]

Not sure what your significance with the Ezekiel passage is but I do recall in previous chapters of Ezekiel I believe chapter 28 that one can recognize that the prince of Tyrus was making essentially a false claim of having God’s authority.
Maybe your trying to indicate shepherd means leader? No argument there.

The significance lies in the fact that God removed the leadership, the authority of 'shepherd' from the leaders of the time saying He Himself would shepherd His people, He would care for His sheep. That is true. Jesus declared Himself the Good Shepherd; as He is God, we see Ezekiel's prophecy fulfilled. Then, as Jesus was about to ascend to Heaven, He restored the leadership, the authority to St. Peter (while simultaneously restoring Peter himself after his denial of Christ) by telling St. Peter to feed my lambs, take care of my sheep, feed my sheep.

This is scriptural evidence of the important office that St. Peter and his successors would hold.

PAX

 

[Isaiah 53]

One of the first posts by ISA was on the shepherd of Hermes
I believe his claim was that it said "his duty" and that indicated some type of authority. So I highlighted the red part...
242 THE SHEPHERD OF HERMAS

think, is the elderly lady from whom you took the book?* 'The
Sibyl/ 7 I said. 'No, 3 he said, 'y u are mistaken.' 'Who is she,
then? 5 I said. The Church,' he said. 'Why is she elderly?' I
asked. 'Because she was created before all things,' he said.
Tor this reason she is elderly and for Her sake the world
was erected.' 2 After this I had a vision in my house. The
elderly lady came and asked me whether I had already given
the book to the Presbyters. I said that I had not. 'That is well/
she said, 'for I have remarks to add. So, when I shall com-
plete all the words, with your help they will be made known
to all the elect. 3 Write, then, two small booklets, one for
Clement and one for Grapte. Clement will then send it
to the cities abroad since this is his duty, and Grapte will
instruct the widows and orphans. But you shall read it
to this city together with the Presbyters, who are in charge of
the church.

Church or church? Big difference. Would you mind posting a link to this passage?

PAX

 

[simonthezealot]

Church or church? Big difference. Would you mind posting a link to this passage?

PAX

http://www.archive.org/stream/fathersofthechur009510mbp/fathersofthechur009510mbp_djvu.txt


Its #242 a little over halfway down...

 

[simonthezealot]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.ii.ii.ii.html?highlight=clemens,grapte#highlight
Here is another for you, Isaiah, your wasting your time on this...These are all reputable translations, would you like me to find it in Latin as well?

 

[BigNorsk]

I would have a question on the Latin vs the translations. Are the capitalizations in the Latin and does capitalization mean the same thing in Latin. Like "Church" being different than "church".

Or are the capitalizations done by the translators.

Marv

 

[simonthezealot]

I would have a question on the Latin vs the translations. Are the capitalizations in the Latin and does capitalization mean the same thing in Latin. Like "Church" being different than "church".

Or are the capitalizations done by the translators.

Marv

Well its funny Marv I have found this wring on a 1/2 dozen different pages both catholic and protestant and both have it both ways so my assumption is that it is translators...
BTW I really don't see what he is trying forge out of this writing, it does not really give any credence to the universal authority of "Rome" in fact if anything it speaks against it (c) or (C) IMO.

 

[calluna]

In essence we want to review whether it has always been known that Rome was THE universal authority.

How can the violent, the mendacious, thieves and oppressors be a legitimate authority? What right-thinking people should be doing is making it illegal to support Constantinians in any way.

Wherever they may be.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The significance lies in the fact that God removed the leadership, the authority of 'shepherd' from the leaders of the time saying He Himself would shepherd His people, He would care for His sheep. That is true. Jesus declared Himself the Good Shepherd; as He is God, we see Ezekiel's prophecy fulfilled. Then, as Jesus was about to ascend to Heaven, He restored the leadership, the authority to St. Peter (while simultaneously restoring Peter himself after his denial of Christ) by telling St. Peter to feed my lambs, take care of my sheep, feed my sheep.

This is scriptural evidence of the important office that St. Peter and his successors would hold.

PAX

Greetings. That word used in John 21:15 is unique as only this verse outside of Revelation uses it.
It is different from the word John used for the "Lamb of the God". I have a thread on this if thou are interested. Thoughts?

John 21:15 When then they dine is saying to the Simon Peter the Jesus , `Simon of Jonas/John, thou are loving/agapaV <25> Me more of these?' He is saying to Him, `Yea Lord! Thou has perceived that I am being-affectionate/filw <5368> of thee;' He is saying to him, `Be thou grazing/boske <1006>! the Lamb-kins/arnia <721> of Me .'

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7245442
The "lambkin" in Revelation and John 21 question

Reve 5:6 And I saw and behold! in midst of the throne and of the four living-ones and in midst of the elders a lamb-kin/arnion <721> standing, as having been slaughtered

 

[Isaiah 53]

Well its funny Marv I have found this wring on a 1/2 dozen different pages both catholic and protestant and both have it both ways so my assumption is that it is translators...
BTW I really don't see what he is trying forge out of this writing, it does not really give any credence to the universal authority of "Rome" in fact if anything it speaks against it (c) or (C) IMO.

Whether I can sqeeze something out of this particular writing or not, to me, is irrelevant. As there are plenty of other writings giving authority to Rome. I am just curious as to whether the Church or church (as mentioned) is a different word/meaning. If you have the Latin translation that would be great. Thanks in advance for the trouble!

PAX

 

[Isaiah 53]

How can the violent, the mendacious, thieves and oppressors be a legitimate authority? What right-thinking people should be doing is making it illegal to support Constantinians in any way.

Wherever they may be.

These are the type of thoughtless comments that get whole forums shut down. It was my hope, that we could have a civilized and intelligent discussion in this thread...alas...


PAX

 

[Isaiah 53]

Greetings. That word used in John 21:15 is unique as only this verse outside of Revelation uses it.
It is different from the word John used for the "Lamb of the God". I have a thread on this if thou are interested. Thoughts?

John 21:15 When then they dine is saying to the Simon Peter the Jesus , `Simon of Jonas/John, thou are loving/agapaV <25> Me more of these?' He is saying to Him, `Yea Lord! Thou has perceived that I am being-affectionate/filw <5368> of thee;' He is saying to him, `Be thou grazing/boske <1006>! the Lamb-kins/arnia <721> of Me .'

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7245442
The "lambkin" in Revelation and John 21 question

Reve 5:6 And I saw and behold! in midst of the throne and of the four living-ones and in midst of the elders a lamb-kin/arnion <721> standing, as having been slaughtered

Interesting! While that is not exactly the point I am trying to make with this passage....it does provoke thought.

PAX

 

[simonthezealot]

Whether I can sqeeze something out of this particular writing or not, to me, is irrelevant. As there are plenty of other writings giving authority to Rome. I am just curious as to whether the Church or church (as mentioned) is a different word/meaning. If you have the Latin translation that would be great. Thanks in advance for the trouble!

PAX

Thought sure i'd seen it here but can't seem to locate the Latin ...
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/20_30_Ecclesiae_Patres_Graeci.html

 

[simonthezealot]

Persistance pays off...The GREEK, fairly simple but weird greek Page 194 is the greek 193 is Ehrmens translation into english..
http://books.google.com/books?id=m7...wash my mouth]c3U2LlmxK7n4NgWxU6fkg#PPA194,M1

Here...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Interesting! While that is not exactly the point I am trying to make with this passage....it does provoke thought.

PAX

Greetings. Acts 8:32 is of course a quote from Isaiah 53 and I am wondering what the greek form of "amno" signifies compared to the greek form "arni". Any idea?

Acts 8:32 The yet contexts of the Writing which he read was this: `As a flockling onto slaughter/sfaghn <4967> he was led; and as a-Lamb/amnoV <286> before of the one shearing Him, soundless, thus not he is opening the mouth of Him'; [Isaiah 53:7]

Reve 5:6 And I saw in midst of the throne and of the four living ones and in midst of the elders a-lambkin/arnion <721> standing/esthkoV <2476, as having been slaughtered/esfagmenon <4969>,

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=5858522&page=13
Isaiah 53: A Contextual Discussion

 

[Isaiah 53]

Simon,

Did you have any further thoughts about this...

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=48046618&postcount=2

I believe it clearly shows that St. Peter (and his successors) was intended to shepherd and lead God's people.

PAX