The Depressed Earth

[SimplyNothing]

So I've been reading some recent findings on the study of clinical depression and other mental illnesses. I wasn't sure where to put this thread, but I believe it is an incorrect mentality/worldview held over a long period of time that causes mental illness and depression, so it's gonna go here.

1/3 of North Americans are depressed and open about it. That means that if you were sitting in a room with nine individuals, three of them would suffer depression that they would consider debilitating and be willing to talk about it. However, recent findings state that the stigma's surrounding depression may be stifling the actual results. As many as half to two thirds of North Americans may be suffering from depression without talking openly about it.

These rates are much higher than anywhere else in the world, whether third world or not. North Americans have the weakest quality of life despite the highest standard of living.

Now when I read this I was completely blown away. How can the most privileged society in the world have the highest rates of depression and depersonalization? I've thought about it for a while now, and decided that CF was the best place to ask. It obviously stems from some idea held falsely in our society that is touted as truth.

Examples may be:
-You create your own right and wrong
-You forge your own destiny
-You can be anything you want if you try hard enough
-Get money... it makes you happy

I'm wondering what you guys think is the problem causing this. I honestly think it is that people in North America have enough privilege to be dreamers. Our dreams cause our anxiety. We can imagine what our lives our going to be like when we're young and because there's freedom to move between social classes we believe that the way we perceive our life can become reality. Maybe it can. So when it doesn't we become bitter, pessimistic, withdrawn individuals. I've started to realize... much of humanity walks around wishing they weren't alive. Is it because their life did not turn out the way they expected it to? Did they have some preconceived notion of what their life was to be like?

They must have... otherwise how can they gripe and be sad that it is not that way? This would explain the lower rates of depression in countries with less freedom. They do not have this illusion of control that we have in North America.

I don't know I'm kind of rambling a little bit but the topic interests me. Wondering what you guys think the underlying causes might be. By 2050 I heard that depression is going to be the most prominent medical problem in the world.

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

When if you think about the fact that your life will have no impact on the world, your life span is but a blink in the existance of humanity, the world is slowly being destroyed so even your offspring may be left in a worse world and all attempts of at change are so slow it feels like your not having any effect. No matter how hard you work if you just turn on the tv you will see people that make more money while taking a dump then you will in a year. Even the your biggest chance to make a difference, voting, might not feel like its doing anything. Coupled with a fear that even if there is a afterlife you might have picked the wrong god and will be spending it in hell for all eternity.
(Edited to add: I am just trying to portray how people might experience the world. I am not saying this is how the world actually is.)


I suppose that might depress people alittle.

Personally though I have none of these problems and I may have some trouble relating to people that have them because of it. It seems to me people just make a big deal out of nothing. But clearly there is more going on. Perhaps you have a point that people set their expectations far too high and come crashing back down to earth. That they take setbacks much to hard.

Actually it reminds me alot of the concept of soulmates people who meet up and believe that they are meant to be then find some sort of minor flaw in the other after a while and the whole relationship shatters based on something entirely insignificant mearly because its not the ultimate perfection they envision so it must not be their soulmate after all.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

1 episode of "America's got talent". 6 years in an institution.

 

[mindlight]

So I've been reading some recent findings on the study of clinical depression and other mental illnesses. I wasn't sure where to put this thread, but I believe it is an incorrect mentality/worldview held over a long period of time that causes mental illness and depression, so it's gonna go here.

1/3 of North Americans are depressed and open about it. That means that if you were sitting in a room with nine individuals, three of them would suffer depression that they would consider debilitating and be willing to talk about it. However, recent findings state that the stigma's surrounding depression may be stifling the actual results. As many as half to two thirds of North Americans may be suffering from depression without talking openly about it.

These rates are much higher than anywhere else in the world, whether third world or not. North Americans have the weakest quality of life despite the highest standard of living.

Now when I read this I was completely blown away. How can the most privileged society in the world have the highest rates of depression and depersonalization? I've thought about it for a while now, and decided that CF was the best place to ask. It obviously stems from some idea held falsely in our society that is touted as truth.

Examples may be:
-You create your own right and wrong
-You forge your own destiny
-You can be anything you want if you try hard enough
-Get money... it makes you happy

I'm wondering what you guys think is the problem causing this. I honestly think it is that people in North America have enough privilege to be dreamers. Our dreams cause our anxiety. We can imagine what our lives our going to be like when we're young and because there's freedom to move between social classes we believe that the way we perceive our life can become reality. Maybe it can. So when it doesn't we become bitter, pessimistic, withdrawn individuals. I've started to realize... much of humanity walks around wishing they weren't alive. Is it because their life did not turn out the way they expected it to? Did they have some preconceived notion of what their life was to be like?

They must have... otherwise how can they gripe and be sad that it is not that way? This would explain the lower rates of depression in countries with less freedom. They do not have this illusion of control that we have in North America.

I don't know I'm kind of rambling a little bit but the topic interests me. Wondering what you guys think the underlying causes might be. By 2050 I heard that depression is going to be the most prominent medical problem in the world.

It is an interesting discussion. Why has a generation with so much opportunity so much depression. What is it about the world view of the this generation that appears to allow for so many depressed people.

The following link points to three kinds of depression:

Depression - Causes - NHS Choices

Psychological (e.g. reactive to stressful events) e.g. redundancy, bereavement, divorce,moving house, worries about money

Physical or chemical - apparently you can inherit a 5-HTT gene which makes you more disposed to get depressed when bad things happen. Something about serotonin levels in the brain etc.

Social
Doing fewer activities or interests can make someone depressed.

But the deeper question about depression is I think a philosophical one about the way people view life and the ways in which worldviews can make one more or less vulnerable to depression. The above medical list could from that perspective merely be considered a list of possible triggers. The measure of depression would be in the extent to which different individuals with different mindsets were able to handle the kinds of things that are meant to make you depressed. In that respect modern American society is uniquely vulnerable to depression due to certain philosophical positions held by the culture as a whole.:

1) INDIVIDUALISM-
If people are primarily conversant with language of self and personal feeling and if community has been lost somewhere along the way then the pressure is on the self to perform. Since most of us are actually quite powerless most of the time to change many basic facts about our situation we can feel depressed about this and blame ourselves as if we had failed.

2) CHANGE IS GOOD- Many of the major stress factors that contribute to depression are actually things which modern society has regarded as liberating. the list of these includes for example:
-The ability to get rid of a nagging older wife and replace her with a younger woman without being stoned to death for adultery. But what about the wife thats left behind and what about the children?

- The ability to move country and job and the loss of a sense of lifetime employment - means that job change is all the more a fact of life for most people and also moving house even nation and language. Those of us who have emigrated for instance know that the reality is actually usually more costly and painful than advertised on the brochure while at the same time bringing rewards and opportunites we could not have anticipated.

But in actual fact things that have been regarded as liberations may have dissolved much of the structure that once gave our life meaningful boundaries and left us restless, boundary less and often cut off from friends and family where small worries could have been discussed and did not need to grow into large ones. Are we depressed cause we destroyed a world view that broadly worked and replaced it with one that has made us richer at the cost of much of what we once considered most important.

3) THE ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE FOR ME VISION
Expectations are inflated by media and education and also by the "American dream" so that people really do believe that they can do anything only to discover that the real world is not like that except for a very exceptional few. The gap between what people expect their lives to be like and what actually occurs must be considered a primary source of depression.

Personally I think the answer for a depressive culture lies in the message of the gospel. We live for Christ in a global community of believers, when we or others face trials (which everybody does) we can expect the love and support of fellow believers and can draw strength from our faith. In the end we can hope for a better tommorrow no matter what our circumstances may be right now. Being faithful to our wives, being in a community of believers with whom we can share our struggles and trying to make the best of the jobs we do rather than continually following the money can all also make a big difference to levels of long term depression. Keeping our expectations real and grounded in an understanding of the calls on our lives is also really important. Having truthes and standards to measure our plans against is helpful here.

 

[SithDoughnut]

Are these people actually depressed, or do they just consider themselves depressed?

 

[Eudaimonist]

How can the most privileged society in the world have the highest rates of depression and depersonalization?

Perhaps because when life is not merely a struggle for survival, people start to focus on goals higher up Maslow's pyramid of values.

I honestly think it is that people in North America have enough privilege to be dreamers. Our dreams cause our anxiety.

Why does it have to be dreams? Why not a lack of close relations with family and friends? People who have to move to follow jobs might possibly lack in close ties with others.

Also, why not a lack of esteem? Perhaps some people feel undervalued by others. Perhaps they don't know how to value themselves.

Anyway, if we demand that our dreams come true, there could be some anxiety over this. But I don't think that we should blame dreams as such. Just the feeling of entitlement to our dreams. Some people really do achieve their dreams, but perhaps their spirit was one of creation, not entitlement.

I don't think we should discount other possible factors. Depression seems to be a chemical phenomenon in the brain. Perhaps it isn't the failure to accomplish dreams as such that is the problem.

I've noticed there have been times when I have contemplated something that I really wanted to accomplish in my life but haven't so far, and during this contemplation sometimes I was depressed, and sometimes I wasn't.

I began to wonder why there was this difference. Why do identical thoughts lead to two noticably different emotional reactions? There seemed to be no reason at all for the difference. But then I noticed that there was an environmental difference. When I tended to feel depressed, I didn't have adequate amounts of deep, dream-filled sleep. When I was well rested, I was much less likely to get depressed.

Aside from environmental factors, I wouldn't be surprised if genes play a role as well. Some people may simply be more genetically prone to depression.

They must have... otherwise how can they gripe and be sad that it is not that way? This would explain the lower rates of depression in countries with less freedom. They do not have this illusion of control that we have in North America.

Of course, that doesn't mean that they have a higher quality of life. They may simply feel defeated and powerless. Perhaps it is worth risking depression to be self-empowered and free.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[SimplyNothing]

Are these people actually depressed, or do they just consider themselves depressed?

There is a very fine line between the two. I would say anyone who experiences prolonged depressive episodes at least three times a week is depressed. Whether they are chemically depressed or simply hold an unhealthy worldview would be difficult for a medical professional to distinguish between I would say.

Wouldn't a prolonged unhealthy mental state lead to an imbalance of serotonin and dopamine anyway?

What is the substance of a thought?

 

[SimplyNothing]

1) INDIVIDUALISM-
If people are primarily conversant with language of self and personal feeling and if community has been lost somewhere along the way then the pressure is on the self to perform. Since most of us are actually quite powerless most of the time to change many basic facts about our situation we can feel depressed about this and blame ourselves as if we had failed.

I would agree. I would also say that negative pressure to perform may also arise out of an unhealthy relationship with your parents as well and that this may lead to anxiety. I would know personally in regards to that but you put it in a much broader scope.

I also think that in our modern society priority is generally given to the social aspect of a person's life while in their school years. You'll find that only a few youth will consider their homework more important than their friends. The sense of community and friendship that they develop in high school is lost when they enter the "real world," and need to give some of that up in order to succeed.

I think a problem may develop when their sense of identity is found in that community... essentially.

Many of the major stress factors that contribute to depression are actually things which modern society has regarded as liberating... ... But in actual fact things that have been regarded as liberations may have dissolved much of the structure that once gave our life meaningful boundaries and left us restless, boundary less and often cut off from friends and family where small worries could have been discussed and did not need to grow into large ones. Are we depressed cause we destroyed a world view that broadly worked and replaced it with one that has made us richer at the cost of much of what we once considered most important.

I think that Moral relativity is a dangerous concept and that there is some sort of positive and negative ripple effect to each of our actions. The fact that people in NA are privy to a lifestyle that is so sedentary that they can base their lives around "having fun," coupled with this idea of moral relativity and the amount of selfishness/self-indulgence being thrown in your face by the media I think people can begin to see why the social mindset is deteriorating.

I don't even know how many people I hear say "I Just want to have fun..." or "I just want to be happy." It's sad because we're taught that to indulge in ourselves is the way to happiness. I agree that happiness can only really come from either the self, or God, and not any outer factors, but I think people are too easily swayed by their emotions into selfish indulgence rather than peace.

 

[SimplyNothing]

Why does it have to be dreams?

It doesn't necessarily just have to be our ambitions. I already clarified there are obviously other factors involved.

Why not a lack of close relations with family and friends? People who have to move to follow jobs might possibly lack in close ties with others.

Also, why not a lack of esteem? Perhaps some people feel undervalued by others. Perhaps they don't know how to value themselves.

I would 100% agree with both of these. Insecurity leads to a feeling of helplessness.

Anyway, if we demand that our dreams come true, there could be some anxiety over this. But I don't think that we should blame dreams as such. Just the feeling of entitlement to our dreams. Some people really do achieve their dreams, but perhaps their spirit was one of creation, not entitlement.

I don't think we should discount other possible factors. Depression seems to be a chemical phenomenon in the brain. Perhaps it isn't the failure to accomplish dreams as such that is the problem.

See when I'm stating that our ambition's can cause our anxiety I'm tying this statement into the general mood of our society. We are told to succeed... and I think a great many people have a fear of not succeeding in various life endeavours... Debilitatingly so. Most people have dreams... and spend all their time idly making grandiose plans for their mundane lives as they pass them by. Wouldn't fear be a wonderful reason to coast?

And wouldn't an unhealthy worldview held over a long period of time lead to some form of chemical imabalance in the brain?

 

[Gracchus]

I read something just the other day, but I am not going to look it up for a citation, so if you are interested, you can Google it.

It said that those who see the world realistically are mildly depressed. Those who see the world pessimistically are more severely depressed, and the happiest people are those who look at the world through rose-colored glasses.

That seems right.

 

[Bushido216]

There is a very fine line between the two. I would say anyone who experiences prolonged depressive episodes at least three times a week is depressed. Whether they are chemically depressed or simply hold an unhealthy worldview would be difficult for a medical professional to distinguish between I would say.

Wouldn't a prolonged unhealthy mental state lead to an imbalance of serotonin and dopamine anyway?

What is the substance of a thought?

Major depressive disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It turns out there are people who do this for a living. They say that the criteria for MDD are the following:

Five of the following over a two-week period:

Depressed mood
Anhedonia
Change in appetite / eating / weight
Radical change in sleep patterns in either direction
Depressed motor activity
Fatigue
Feelings of negative self-worth
Poor concentration
Recurring thoughts of death

It would be easy to distinguish the cause with the proper testing.

Your last question is a bit of a tautology. Yes, having a negative world view will cause your neuro-chemicals to go out of whack. Depression is a brain state and those are determined chemically. That being said, some people are born into the world with an off-kilter brain that doesn't have normal levels of this or that chemical.

So, ALL depression is the result of an imbalance of neuro chemicals. Why it's imbalanced is the question.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Don't Worry: Happiness Levels Not Set in Stone - Yahoo! News

Happiness research hasn't, to my knowledge, shown that "dreams in life are bad".

I think that if we want to explain depression, we should consider some of the results reported in this article.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

Most people have dreams... and spend all their time idly making grandiose plans for their mundane lives as they pass them by.

That doesn't make dreams bad. It makes spending time dreaming instead of pursuing dreams bad. Spending time pursuing one's dreams may be very good.

We are told to succeed... and I think a great many people have a fear of not succeeding in various life endeavours... Debilitatingly so.

I know people like this. However, it isn't being told to succeed that is bad. It is the fear of not succeeding that is harmful. It is the attitude that if one doesn't succeed, then one's life is a failure and therefore meaningless. This is not a necessary view when success in life is valued.

And wouldn't an unhealthy worldview held over a long period of time lead to some form of chemical imabalance in the brain?

Possibly. But I think that you are focusing on the wrong target. It isn't unhealthy to dream or to pursue success. It is unhealthy only when one does so in an neurotic way. People shouldn't give up their dreams or their efforts to succeed, but only the unwise ways of viewing the human condition and managing their fears.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Received]

It said that those who see the world realistically are mildly depressed. Those who see the world pessimistically are more severely depressed, and the happiest people are those who look at the world through rose-colored glasses.

Yeah, that's in line with Martin Seligman's positive psychology research regarding optimism and its relation to learned helplessness, which in turn is responsible for depression. As you say, people who are pessimistic tend to see the world more realistically; people who are optimistic tend to view the world in more positive terms according to how they explain events ("explanatory style"), which is broken down into pervasive, personal, and permanent elements.

It's essentially a cognitive deal. If you interpret negative events in pervasive, personal, and permanent ways (e.g., a bad test grade means you're an idiot, you're good for nothing, and will probably always be), you're much more prone to learned helplessness, and thus more likely to experience depression because you're less resilient to change. The opposite is true if you interpret negative events in non-pervasive, -personal, and -permanent ways. You'd be much more resilient to learned helplessness and therefore depression. You're also more prone to depression if you interpret positive events in non-pervasive, -personal, and -permanent ways, and less prone if you interpret positive events in pervasive, personal, and permanent ways.

The brilliant thing is that you can teach yourself to be pessimistic (and therefore realistic) or optimistic (and therefore slightly idealistic) depending on the situation. This can be done through disputing your automatic thoughts, which is a snazzy cognitive-behavioral term to stand for any thoughts that immediately result from internal or external stimuli. There are clearly situations where being realistic pays off, such as when you're looking at a potentially dangerous situation; you can't walk into a brothel removing the possibility of an STI because you're learning to think optimistically. Seligman points out that certain careers demand pessimism naturally, such as business. The point is that you should be optimistic when you can. So long, of course, as you're not the type of person to quibble over every single detail for the sake of a neurotic clasping for perpetual truth. What Seligman's studies have made clear is that happiness and truth don't always overlap.

Apropos the OP, the way that people think determines to a very large degree the pervasiveness of depression. We're largely depressed because we have superficial cultural values, with materialism, hedonism, and non-educational values mostly to blame. Of course, there is undeniably a biological element to depression, as a ten second walk through the realm of twin studies makes clear. However, this can be interpreted in catalytic terms: biology could make a person more prone to depression relative to the cognitions he has about himself.

 

[Eudaimonist]

As you say, people who are pessimistic tend to see the world more realistically; people who are optimistic tend to view the world in more positive terms according to how they explain events ("explanatory style"), which is broken down into pervasive, personal, and permanent elements.

I'm not so sure about that. Pessimistic people can be just as helpless as anyone else. They pessimistically rationalize that there is no need for them to accomplish anything beyond what they have, because they will fail anyway.

Personally, I think that we need a synthesis -- a Golden Mean between the two -- which I tend to call cautious optimism for lack of a better term.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[SithDoughnut]

I'm not so sure about that. Pessimistic people can be just as helpless as anyone else. They pessimistically rationalize that there is no need for them to accomplish anything beyond what they have, because they will fail anyway.

Personally, I think that we need a synthesis -- a Golden Mean between the two -- which I tend to call cautious optimism for lack of a better term.


eudaimonia,

Mark

"Hope for the best, prepare for the worst" tends to see me through.

 

[Eudaimonist]

"Hope for the best, prepare for the worst" tends to see me through.

Yes, that's something a cautiously optimistic person would say.

Another thing might be: I don't know if I will succeed or fail, but I will strive to succeed and know that, whatever the results, I have accomplished what I could and I will be happy with that.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Received]

Hi Mark.

I'm not so sure about that. Pessimistic people can be just as helpless as anyone else. They pessimistically rationalize that there is no need for them to accomplish anything beyond what they have, because they will fail anyway.

That's exactly what I'm (trying) to say. Pessimists are more prone to helplessness because they have a negatively biased explanatory style; they explain good things that happen to them as nonpersonal (blaming it on external factors), nonpervasive (it only occurs in this moment), and non-permanent (it's a momentary good thing, and will pass), and bad things that happen to them in an opposite fashion. Your statement that a pessimist wouldn't try to accomplish anything else because they'll fail is a great example of the mindset of a person with learned helplessness.

Personally, I think that we need a synthesis -- a Golden Mean between the two -- which I tend to call cautious optimism for lack of a better term.

That could work. I think training your cognitions to respond pessimistically or optimistically (through explanatory style) is the best way to go, because there are clearly some situations where being realistic (and thus pessimistic) is the way to go. But by and large optimism is more psychologically healthy and contributes more to happiness. The problem is that optimism often involves magnifying or generalizing good events and minimizing or particularizing bad ones. In a more philosophical sense it even means finding a teleology that justifies any type of badness one is currently in, which is another example of how possible untruth could be useful in overcoming factual situations.

 

[sandwiches]

I read something just the other day, but I am not going to look it up for a citation, so if you are interested, you can Google it.

It said that those who see the world realistically are mildly depressed. Those who see the world pessimistically are more severely depressed, and the happiest people are those who look at the world through rose-colored glasses.

That seems right.

I think a part of the unhappiness related to nontheism, is also a consequence of religious upbringing. How so? I believe that when people are taught that things like morality, 'true' happiness, meaning of life, etc are a package that can only come with belief in Religion X, if people ever toss out those beliefs, they might toss out what they've been taught is part of that package, such as happiness or a reason to live.

Instead, when people, like myself, who have been lucky enough to have been taught morality, self-fulfillment, and meaning independent of religion, if we eventually do shed religion, we are not lost. Like when I finally 'came out' of the atheist closet, I didn't feel like anything was missing in my life. If anything, it was a liberating experience and opened up my eyes to the wonders of the universe.

 

[The Nihilist]

So I've been reading some recent findings on the study of clinical depression and other mental illnesses. I wasn't sure where to put this thread, but I believe it is an incorrect mentality/worldview held over a long period of time that causes mental illness and depression, so it's gonna go here.

1/3 of North Americans are depressed and open about it. That means that if you were sitting in a room with nine individuals, three of them would suffer depression that they would consider debilitating and be willing to talk about it. However, recent findings state that the stigma's surrounding depression may be stifling the actual results. As many as half to two thirds of North Americans may be suffering from depression without talking openly about it.

These rates are much higher than anywhere else in the world, whether third world or not. North Americans have the weakest quality of life despite the highest standard of living.

Now when I read this I was completely blown away. How can the most privileged society in the world have the highest rates of depression and depersonalization? I've thought about it for a while now, and decided that CF was the best place to ask. It obviously stems from some idea held falsely in our society that is touted as truth.

Examples may be:
-You create your own right and wrong
-You forge your own destiny
-You can be anything you want if you try hard enough
-Get money... it makes you happy

I'm wondering what you guys think is the problem causing this. I honestly think it is that people in North America have enough privilege to be dreamers. Our dreams cause our anxiety. We can imagine what our lives our going to be like when we're young and because there's freedom to move between social classes we believe that the way we perceive our life can become reality. Maybe it can. So when it doesn't we become bitter, pessimistic, withdrawn individuals. I've started to realize... much of humanity walks around wishing they weren't alive. Is it because their life did not turn out the way they expected it to? Did they have some preconceived notion of what their life was to be like?

They must have... otherwise how can they gripe and be sad that it is not that way? This would explain the lower rates of depression in countries with less freedom. They do not have this illusion of control that we have in North America.

I don't know I'm kind of rambling a little bit but the topic interests me. Wondering what you guys think the underlying causes might be. By 2050 I heard that depression is going to be the most prominent medical problem in the world.

Do you have some sources on the data you present?