The "Default Position"

[selfinflikted]

NO - not missionary.

I was trying to respond to an interesting tangent in the "The Mind of an Atheist" thread, which was unfortunately closed before the participants could get any further into discussing the "default position." A poster in the "Mind" thread suggested that the default position upon birth is "atheist." The OP of the thread disagreed, and I would like to open the discussion back up on this topic.

For those who disagree that atheist is the "default position" from birth, please explain why.

 

[ChetSinger]

We get much of our early opinions from our parents. To even begin to deduce a "default" position I think you'd have to find someone who was raised by wolves.

 

[selfinflikted]

We get much of our early opinions from our parents.

Exactly. Do you believe people are born with opinions on god(s), or is this something they learn?

 

[ChetSinger]

Exactly. Do you believe people are born with opinions on god(s), or is this something they learn?

I've just said that as individuals we learn from our parents.

A more interesting question (to me) is this: almost every society on earth has beliefs in an "unseen world" of spirits. Why do you think that might be?

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

NO - not missionary.

I was trying to respond to an interesting tangent in the "The Mind of an Atheist" thread, which was unfortunately closed before the participants could get any further into discussing the "default position." A poster in the "Mind" thread suggested that the default position upon birth is "atheist." The OP of the thread disagreed, and I would like to open the discussion back up on this topic.

For those who disagree that atheist is the "default position" from birth, please explain why.

The Mind of the Atheist (Part I)
The Default Position (Part II)

Creation says ? Image of God (source the Bible)
Jean Cauvin says? Sensus Divinitatis (source Institutes)
OldWiseMan says? Unbelief (source Bible)
Thomas Acquinas says? Sensus Dei (Summa Theologica)
Herman Doyeweerd says? Supratemporal heart (read his stuff)
I say read widely, think courageously and don't buy into Psychobabble - though Frued saw stuff, Jesus was better when he sais,"Suffer the little ones to come unto me and forbid them not, for such is the Kingdom of heaven."
Paul Simon said, "It's a mother and child reunion"
Science says, "Who knows what happened 200 000 Years ago?"
In the end, no one knows yet.

 

[Davian]

 

[selfinflikted]

I've just said that as individuals we learn from our parents.

A more interesting question (to me) is this: almost every society on earth has beliefs in an "unseen world" of spirits. Why do you think that might be?

I believe that most societies, past and present, have such beliefs because there are things to which we as a species do not currently have answers. So people make up answers.

Is this simplistic? Yes, extremely. That said, I believe this is 100% the case, though.

 

[selfinflikted]

The Mind of the Atheist (Part I)
The Default Position (Part II)

Creation says ? Image of God (source the Bible)
Jean Cauvin says? Sensus Divinitatis (source Institutes)
OldWiseMan says? Unbelief (source Bible)
Thomas Acquinas says? Sensus Dei (Summa Theologica)
Herman Doyeweerd says? Supratemporal heart (read his stuff)
I say read widely, think courageously and don't buy into Psychobabble - though Frued saw stuff, Jesus was better when he sais,"Suffer the little ones to come unto me and forbid them not, for such is the Kingdom of heaven."
Paul Simon said, "It's a mother and child reunion"
Science says, "Who knows what happened 200 000 Years ago?"
In the end, no one knows yet.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing how this addressed the OP at all.

 

[Chris B]

At the very beginning of life it's got to be some form of "not knowing", surely?
The topics and questions have not yet arisen to require the taking of a position on them.

And then the "assumed normal position", the starting point if not quite the default one, becomes whatever is presented by teaching and by example in one's family and local society.
Moving away from that initial exposure is a minority route, going by the demographic distribution of faiths and religions, even if it something numerous individuals do. In an enormous sample size, they are still the relatively rare ones.

Personally I'm a long way from what I was raised to, and that's needed more than one paradigm shift.
But at least my early upbringing was such that it did not rule out the possibility of questioning. Doubt and scepticism were not utterly taboo.

 

[ChetSinger]

I believe that most societies, past and present, have such beliefs because there are things to which we as a species do not currently have answers. So people make up answers.

Is this simplistic? Yes, extremely. That said, I believe this is 100% the case, though.

Let me give you another idea for consideration: ancient societies believed in an unseen world because they interacted with it.

The Bible says that when men were first scattered over the earth, God set above them seventy angelic minders. Each minder was assigned a territory and the people living in it.

Their charter was revoked 2,000 years ago. But I'll suggest to you that some of early man's polytheistic beliefs may have been based on more than just imagination.

 

[selfinflikted]

Let me give you another idea for consideration: ancient societies believed in an unseen world because they interacted with it.

It's an entertaining idea, yet one woefully lacking any actual evidence.

<snip>...I'll suggest to you that some of early man's polytheistic beliefs may have been based on more than just imagination.

What evidence do you have to support this assertion?

 

[ChetSinger]

It's an entertaining idea, yet one woefully lacking any actual evidence.

What evidence do you have to support this assertion?

Every ancient society I'm aware of believed in a spirit world that interacted with men.

 

[ViaCrucis]

NO - not missionary.

I was trying to respond to an interesting tangent in the "The Mind of an Atheist" thread, which was unfortunately closed before the participants could get any further into discussing the "default position." A poster in the "Mind" thread suggested that the default position upon birth is "atheist." The OP of the thread disagreed, and I would like to open the discussion back up on this topic.

For those who disagree that atheist is the "default position" from birth, please explain why.

That depends entirely on whether or not we define atheism as a conscientious position on the question of divinity, or else simply any sort of absence of theism.

If atheism includes not having any conceptual awareness of the abstract idea of "divinity" in any permutation whatsoever, then sure, atheism is the default position of a child fresh from the womb. But then we could also say that the newborn is a kind of solipsist as the newborn has no theory of mind or awareness of reality beyond the self, beyond hungry, thirsty, cold, tired, etc.

But I don't know that I'd say Solipsism is a default position simply because a newborn child has not yet developed the faculties of mind capable of conceiving of the world outside of itself.

So definitions here are going to matter.

I think trying to argue that A/atheism is the "default position" is unhelpful. If the only meaning is to say "Newborn infants have not yet been introduced to the concept of divinity and thus are unable to intelligently process such abstract ideas" then we would best be served saying that. Otherwise the argument seems to come across as tribal, or an attempt at point scoring.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Paulos23]

Every ancient society I'm aware of believed in a spirit world that interacted with men.

Does that mean there was a spirit world? I don't see it as evidence as there being one, given that over time things credited to a spirit world have been found to have natural causes.

 

[ChetSinger]

Does that mean there was a spirit world? I don't see it as evidence as there being one, given that over time things credited to a spirit world have been found to have natural causes.

Of course, in my experience there is one. I was just suggesting that if every ancient society believed in a spirit world, perhaps that belief had some basis on experience; the experience that the Bible says they had.

 

[justlookinla]

This gets into the area of consciousness and what consciousness is. It's not possible to question newborns concerning their consciousness/awareness, but there are children who have experienced out of body consciousness/awareness at a very early age. Maybe unawareness is the 'default' position at birth, but shortly thereafter an awareness of existence outside the body is present for some.

 

[selfinflikted]

Every ancient society I'm aware of believed in a spirit world that interacted with men.

Yes, that's been established. But there is no evidence that any ancient society interacted with anything supernatural.

 

[selfinflikted]

That depends entirely on whether or not we define atheism as a conscientious position on the question of divinity, or else simply any sort of absence of theism.

If atheism includes not having any conceptual awareness of the abstract idea of "divinity" in any permutation whatsoever, then sure, atheism is the default position of a child fresh from the womb. But then we could also say that the newborn is a kind of solipsist as the newborn has no theory of mind or awareness of reality beyond the self, beyond hungry, thirsty, cold, tired, etc.

But I don't know that I'd say Solipsism is a default position simply because a newborn child has not yet developed the faculties of mind capable of conceiving of the world outside of itself.

So definitions here are going to matter.

I think trying to argue that A/atheism is the "default position" is unhelpful. If the only meaning is to say "Newborn infants have not yet been introduced to the concept of divinity and thus are unable to intelligently process such abstract ideas" then we would best be served saying that. Otherwise the argument seems to come across as tribal, or an attempt at point scoring.

-CryptoLutheran

It would be, but as I said, this was brought up in another thread in which a poster kinda-sorta countered that all babies are born with some sort of innate awareness that they are a child of god.

I wanted to explore this train of thought, and why others might disagree that atheism (literally, without gods) is the default position.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

NO - not missionary.

I was trying to respond to an interesting tangent in the "The Mind of an Atheist" thread, which was unfortunately closed before the participants could get any further into discussing the "default position." A poster in the "Mind" thread suggested that the default position upon birth is "atheist." The OP of the thread disagreed, and I would like to open the discussion back up on this topic.

For those who disagree that atheist is the "default position" from birth, please explain why.

I would say, no. Atheist only exists as a concept because theism exists. Atheist is the default position but at the same time I believe you need to at least have an understanding of what is being asked before you can declare someone theist or atheist.

In other words, you come to the realization that you are atheist. I don't think anyone is born with that understanding.

You could say a baby is atheist in much the same way you can say a dog is atheist.

 

[selfinflikted]

You could say a baby is atheist in much the same way you can say a dog is atheist.

Well, yes. That's the point, exactly. Because, as stated, others have argued in another thread that babies are not, in fact, atheists. And, technically, they all are.