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The decline of hell doctrine and church attendance

P1LGR1M

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I noticed that if the context of a verse with "sheol" was tied to the real world, it was usually "grave/pit." If context did not tie the verse to the real world, "hell" was usually used. Now why not just transliterate "sheol" rather than use a word I traced back to Norse paganism?

Because it's a translation.

"Hell" helps people recognize that "it is not tied to the real world."

Why not use a word that would be understood by the people reading?

And why not continue using a word that people still recognize as the concept taught in Scripture?

Hades is translated as Hell, and when it is understood it is distinguished from Gehenna Hell. It was understood in Christ's day as a reference to the place of the dead, and it's use does not endorse Greek Mythology anymore than our use of the word Hell endorses norse mythology.


There is no reason, unless you are trying to set up a doctrine the text does not support.

But the texts do support the Doctrine of Hell.

You aren't going to change that by trying to cry "bad translation."

We must include New Testament teachings when we consider the concept of Hell, and if Sheol were intended in Christ's teachings Hades was used because it was an accepted understanding in His day. Where the final judgment was meant He spoke of Gehenna.

Would people understand better if hades and geena were meant? Or hades and gehenna? Would it change what the Lord Himself was saying?


It was the same with "hades," the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "sheol."

So people would have a different understanding of Hades if the word Hades was used?

They would still see the rich man in torment after his death? Most people would associate that with the judgment that follows physical death.


Well, it was not quite equivalent, as it came from a pagan culture, carried pagan connotations, and was even the name of the "god" who the pagans thought ruled it.

It was equivalent: that is how they undertood it in that day, and that is how we understand it in this day.

People still go to sheol when they die. It doesn't matter if I say sheol or hades in a doctrinal discussion because all parties are going to know what I am speaking about.

And it is the job of the preacher or teacher to make it understood to their students. The translation they use is irrelevant if they are doing their job properly.


Continued...
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Again, it is not me that said...

Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.



So how is it that the Lord is trying to"keep people in a state of psychological fear" and is "lacking spiritual maturity?"


Continued...

1) people are doing this, people who belong to an organization they call church.

2) Everything the church does is not automatically an action of "the Lord"

3) By looking at the biblical context, and only emphasizing certain texts, the people in the organization "church" are cultivating spiritual immaturity.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Acts 5:11
And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.



So God and the Apostles were not mature and not properly ministering the New Covenant when this happened?


Continued...
No, they were all brand new Christians at the time, it took time for them to mature. What is written in one place (Acts) does not negate what is written in another place (1st John). That's basic when reading the bible.
 
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P1LGR1M

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So, the not-so-quick answer is most Bibles in which theology guided the translation.

And Theology is derived from translations?

The Theologians that teach the Doctrine of Hell as taught by Christ never did what you did, study the original language and use of these words and try to place them in the context they are found?

Again, crying "bad translation" is a false argument, because nobody stops at a translation or fails to include all relevant teachings and trying to present the context of those passages as it relates to any given Doctrine.


Bias is almost inevitable, but some versions are more accurate than others and more free of bias.

Irrelevant: if someone is relying on a translation they aren't exactly trying to interpret Scripture.

And this is clearly the case with universal salvation, because they ignore the context and try to use translations to support their doctrine.

The same is true with annihilationists, who think "souls" are in physical graves after death. First misapplying the true meaning of soul to a false meaning of grave.

I don't see those who teach the Doctrine of Hell doing that. So if your argument has any merit it is against your position—not for it.

Study is required,

Correct.

And not study of translations, but the study of the original languages and cultures.


not just choosing the most popular version or one recommended by a stranger in a www forum.

Who does that?

Oh, that's right, those who teach annihilation and universal salvation.


That is why I will not make a recommendation here.

You should: you should recommend people do what you say you did:

I took a good look at how the Hebrew word "sheol" was translated

That's how it's done.


God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

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What does Matthew twenty-five say is the reason for salvation? And do you agree?

Matthew 25:34-36 NIV
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

So these people were righteous because of their works?

No, i don't agree with that, because salvation is based on the Work of Christ, is a gift, and the works of men do not make them righteous in an eternal context.

That is what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is all about.

The Sheep do these things because they know Christ. That is explicitly taught by Christ in this chapter:


Matthew 25:11-12
King James Version

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.


Matthew 25:32-33
King James Version

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


Do you think that if men give food and drink they can be saved?

Or do they need to "invite" Christ into their hearts?

Do men need to be righteous to escape the everlasting punishment you are trying to ignore in the passage?


God bless.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. It is a direct warning from an inspired Writer of Scripture (hence from God Himself):


Hebrews 10:25-29
King James Version

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



Those who forsake the assembling of the brethren are they which rejected God's will. They rejected Christ, His Covenant, His Sacrifice, and the God the Spirit of Grace Himself.

Are you trying to rethink a very simple passage from Scripture? For what reason?

Are you not a member of a local assembly?

Continued...

They weren't forsaken, they were the ones who forsook:


Hebrews 10:25
King James Version

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.



And the reason why they forsook is that they did not believe:


Hebrews 10:38-39
King James Version

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.



To forsake the assembling of the brethren is to draw back unto perdition.

Those that do not forsake the assembling of the brethren are those who believe unto salvation.


Continued...

So an inspired Writer of Scripture and God Himself are warning men not to forsake the assembly of the brethren while at the same time trying to subconsciously coerce men they had forsaken?

I would request that you show in the passage where you derive this teaching.


Continued...

Oh, so one can forsake the assembling of the brethren if they don't like the person they became in contact with?

This is the first generation of the Church.

And the church, the Body of Christ—forsook the assembling of themselves together?

The first generation of the church was subconsciously coerced?

Again, please present the Scripture that teaches this.


Continued...

That isn't what you just said, but it isn't surprising your doctrine stumbles all over itself.

That's what happens when doctrine has no basis in Scripture.

Now, where is the Scripture that shows the Church forsook those who forsook the assembling of the brethren.

The Writer states a warning not to do this, and you are saying that he is responsible?


Continued...

I am a liar because I can see a very clear teaching in Scripture?

And see through false teachings that are obviously in conflict with Scripture?

Was God not true when He said...


Hebrews 10:25
King James Version

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.



...?


Continued...

1) Today's church cannot be compared to the 1st century church, there lacks a centralized structure regulating what is taught in any given church around the world.

2) You cannot claim authority by quoting scripture, the scripture records the devil quoting scripture, and Jesus calling Peter the devil after praising his good confession.

3) The churches abusive practices towards people is reason plenty to leave. If you treat people well, they tend to stick around.

4) The main scripture where teachings is derived from is what Jesus taught as the number one and two teaching, to love God with all of your heart, mind, body, and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus further explained anyone standing next to you is your neighbor.

The church didn't do this, and taught teachings, applying them in manner that violated this concept, thus negating any authority they claimed through false bravado. A cracked foundation filled in with sand.
 
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P1LGR1M

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I agree about different "judgments". But that's not the best word for what will happen. Speaking of wrong words...

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

The wrong words?


Matthew 25:46
King James Version

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



The use of these words show the skill of the Translators, because they distinguish between those who will go into everlasting punishment, and those who go into Life Eternal.

While the righteous have life everlasting, they also have Eternal Life through union with God.

We can say that the everlasting punishment of those not known of God and who obey not the Gospel is eternal punishment because their punishment takes place outside of Creation.

The Lake of Fire is a spiritual place outside of Creation, and we know this because it is still in existence when this Creation passes away:


Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



So you are free to correct the translation. Please let me know what words you would have used.

And remember, Eternal Life is a basic teaching of Christ. Whatever the duration for punishment you decide on you are going to have to equally apply it to those who have Life.


Continued...
 
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Der Alte

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* * * When most people hear or see "Hell" they don't think of Norse mythology, they think of the concept taught in Scripture.

Continued
...
I have been active at this forum since Dec '89 or Jan '90, not sure which, and I have been saying that same thing since then, But no matter how many times it is said the UR fall back position is the illogical argument "100s of years ago there was a Norse deity named 'hell.'" Here is how illogical it is. When we say "truck" we think of a large boxy vehicle used for transporting large heavy loads. But originally it meant "vegetables" and over time something that was used to transport vegetables. When we say truck today nobody thinks about vegetables.
 
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P1LGR1M

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All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

And?

Does context mean anything?

Are you really going to say that God should only receive glory in this present world?

Or is Paul stating glory to God forever?

Just answer me that.


Continued...
 
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P1LGR1M

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I have been active at this forum since Dec '89 or Jan '90, not sure which, and I have been saying that same thing since then, But no matter how many times it is said the UR fall back position is the illogical argument "100s of years ago there was a Norse deity named 'hell.'" Here is how illogical it is. When we say "truck" we think of a large boxy vehicle used for transporting large heavy loads. But originally it meant "vegetables" and over time something that was used to transport vegetables. When we say truck today nobody thinks about vegetables.

Well, it's pretty obvious to the Public that those teaching universal salvation and annihilation keep repeating the same arguments. And once they have presented them they run off and start a new thread.

Keep up the good work. The work you do is probably not going to benefit your antagonists but it will benefit those who sincerely want to understand the debate.


God bless.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I do have the authority to back it up:


Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.



The teachings of Christ.

This is not subconscious coercion it is a direct statement of Christ to men that they are to fear God because He has, unlike men that may kill the body, the power to cast into Hell.

And after He has cast into Hell He has the power to destroy the body and the soul.

You do not recognize that authority because you do not recognize the authority of Scripture.

Warning men of Everlasting Punishment is not my idea, it is the Lord's and the Apostles' teaching.


Continued...

Not sure how decibels are relevant to a typewritten discussion.

Those who feel frightened by the teachings of Hell should understand there is a reason for that fear: that is the result Christ wants when it comes to Everlasting Judgment.


Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.



The Lord doesn't say "Don't worry about those who kill the body, but give careful consideration to...?


Continued...

And what does the Lord say about the Kingdom of God?


Revelation 22:18-19
King James Version

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.



What does one having his part taken out of the Book of Life mean?


Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



Another warning from God.

No subconscious coercion necessary, just the obedience of those who hear.

It is clear there will be those who will not make it into the Kingdom of God:


Revelation 21:8
King James Version

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



Continued...

So let's break that down.

The lake of fire, is the presence of God, people are burning up because they are not compatible with God. As it is written, kill them before my sight.

The second death is called the second death for a reason, because it is written, he who is dead is freed from sin.

There's millennia of torment to be afraid of, sure, but Sin is not Immortal.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I agree. So how is peace made?


Romans 10:13-15
King James Version

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!



However...


16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



And the fate of those who obey not the Gospel?


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
King James Version

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



Eternal Separation is the fate of those who obey not the Gospel. And the reason why those who reject the New Covenant will be held to a more severe judgment than those who reject the Covenant of Law is due to the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel, and that those who reject Christ, His Covenant, His Sacrifice, and the Spirit of Grace are rejecting God's direct ministry to their hearts.

That is how it works. It is God ministering salvation to men, not men.

So to ascribe a failure for believing to the saving of the soul to men is error.

To say the first generation of the church forsook itself is error.

To say that the teachings of Christ and the Apostles are fear tactics is error.


Continued...
Eternal separation from God, one of those mythical false teachings that no one ever claims to subscribe to.

There are multiple passages in scripture stating it is impossible to be separated from God so, it's just false, you cannot claim to be teaching the same teachings as Christ and the Apostles.
 
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P1LGR1M

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Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

Yes, Eternal Hell, also known as the Lake of Fire, which has no end:


Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



Looks like a pretty good translation that is justified by the wording itself.

Do you also see "day and night" as a bad translation?


Continued...
 
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P1LGR1M

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I appreciate your thoughtful posts, I really do. BUT, the format here on a www discussion forum, is a bit limiting.

You can say that again.


It is not easy posting a comprehensive answer to critics.

Sure it is. It just takes time.


I have posted several times my "Condensation of Conclusions" with many Scripture references, but even that is not generally well received by non-UR believers.

Isn't the same thing I addressed comprehensively in the other thread?


My notes on my 2+ year read-thru of the KJV are too ponderous to post here, as the book the notes turned into runs over 200 pages.

200 pages seems about right for my usual visit to a forum.

I have to say it would be a good idea to bring all you hvae to bear to the table, because so far you haven't been able to present anything that can see that isn't out-of-context use of proof texts and arguments that simply won't stand up.

"Bad translation" is just one of those arguments.

You made boast that you had posted something that no one had answered, and I addressed it in detail, and you ignored the responses.


Continued...
 
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Der Alte

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Saint Steven said:
I agree about different "judgments". But that's not the best word for what will happen. Speaking of wrong words...
Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.
All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.
Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”
Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kfKQJfT0C8&t=770s
WRONG! "aionios" is never translated "age" anywhere in the NT. "Aion" is.
“αιωνιος/aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [1%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “eternal” 42 times in the N.T.[52%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “everlasting” 25 times in the N.T.[34.7%]
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, [38.8% of total] Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
In twenty four [24] of the following 26 verses “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never means eternity/eternal” because a few times they refer to something which are not eternal e.g. “world.”
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. Jesus never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not/could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal.” Lk 1:33, John 6:58, 10:28, 3:15, 3:16, 5:29, 3:36, 4:14, 6:27, 8:51

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei [Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, [Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]
In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal, no end.
[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite age,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.
In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.
[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means unto eternity.

[Character Limit. Continued next post]




 
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Gregory Thompson

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I do. It's pretty easy to see.




I know that God wants men to fear Him:


Job 1:8
And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?



Psalm 36:1-3
King James Version

1 The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.

2 For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.

3 The words of his mouth are iniquity and deceit: he hath left off to be wise, and to do good.



As for fear in the assembly...


Psalm 89:7
God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.



If one has no fear of God it would seem to me that one simply has no appreciation for Who He is.


Continued...

Father God doesn't want us to fear Him, that's why He sent Jesus, the Son. This is why we have "the comforter." God, The Holy Spirit sent to us.

This is wrong teaching.

We can go to the New Testament to see what God hates also:


2 Peter 2
King James Version

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.



How did God feel about the false prophets of the Old Testament? Were those poor souls victims of fear tactics used by the Prophets? Did God or the Prophets forsake them, and were they were subconsciously coerced?


2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.


It seems to me that calling the teachings of Christ satanic doctrine is speaking evil of the Way of Truth.

Calling His teachings "primal scream therapy" is speaking evil of the Way of Truth.


3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.



We cannot substitute damnation with salvation.


4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;



God literally put men to death for their sin. For this reason, men should fear Him that hath power, after He has killed, to destroy both soul (person) and body in Hell.

The demons weren't annihilated but held in chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgment. We see this with men as well, because both demons and the ungodly will end up in the same place (Matthew 25:41).


7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)



Only God can deliver men from judgment.


9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:


But it should be made clear that the unjust have a reservation on the Day of Judgment.

Peter isn't coercing anyone. In fact, Peter cannot change the hearts of men.

But the Word of God can.

And does.


Continued...

You don't seem to be saying anything in response to me here.

That is exactly what he does.

He tries to use Scripture out of context to support his agenda.

That began in the Garden, and we have no reason to think he and his demons aren't doing the same thing today.

But he didn't take credit for the teachings of Christ, so when people ascribe Christ's teachings to Satan we see the problem immediately.


Matthew 12:24-34
King James Version

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.



Universal salvation forgets that there is sin that will not be forgiven.

Here is everlasting Damnation, Separation, and Judgment:


32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


Is Christ trying to use fear tactics?

No, He is simply presenting truth.

And the truth that universal salvation tries to bury is that God will not forgive the Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost in this world or the one to come.

No need to try to impose another meaning in it, the phrasing makes it clear, just as this does:


Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



Continued...

1) learn to separate your teaching from when God is teaching, you are not God.

2) Stating that satan did one thing with the old testament scriptures, and the new testament scriptures are immune exposes your falsehood, too obvious.

We don't have to "make sense" of what is right before our eyes: false doctrine has crept into Modern Christendom just as it crept into the First Century Church.

And what was the answer then? Scripture, and sound teaching.

What is the answer now? Scripture, and sound teaching.


Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.


Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


1 Timothy 1:10
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


1 Timothy 4:6
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.


1 Timothy 4:13
Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.


1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.


Quite a few more I could post but this should suffice to show that Doctrine is important to the Body of Christ.

Paul wrote...

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;



...which shows sound doctrine is necessary and contrasted with the doctrine of those who heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.

Peter wrote...

2 Peter 3:14-16
King James Version

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.



...that there are those who are unlearned and unstable who wrest the Scriptures unto their own destruction.

When we see clear teachings of Christ called the doctrine of Satan we have to wonder how it is that the people that say these things do not see the example given us in Scripture by Christ and the Apostles.


Continued...

When there are 1000's of denominations with different teachings, sound teaching becomes an exercise in satisfying itching ears - because it becomes doctrine that "sounds good" to those listening.

Until there's one church, like in the beginning, sound doctrine cannot be claimed.

You really need to learn to distinguish between an eternal context and a temporal context, and—to stop using verses out of context to justify yourself:


1 Corinthians 4
King James Version

1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.



Paul had no doubts about his eternal destiny. Most who are familiar with New Testament teaching know this.

And most are able to distinguish between Paul speaking about his temporal situation as opposed to his salvation in Christ.


Continued...

The passage there didn't communicate certainty, but trust in God's judgment.

On the contrary:


Hebrews 9:11-15
King James Version

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



Having received the Promise of Eternal Inheritance is just one more reason why my conscience has been purged.

Because I understand that what I do here in the temporal arena has no impact on the Work of Christ and that despite what I do in this temporal arena He has saved me anyway.

Yes, we can have confidence about the judgment of God, knowing that our sin has been judged in the Person of Christ and that those who reject the Gospel will undergo Everlasting Punishment.

That is the reason why I try to help people understand that Christ's teaching is not the doctrine of Satan, it is a warning from God Himself.


God bless.

I quoted a passage, and you replied with "on the contrary" doesn't that discredit all that you've said up until now?

Theologizing a point not made in the bible to fit your personal theology is kind of what you're at odds with today, so best to start cleaning your own cup first.
 
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P1LGR1M

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Yes, to confirm one of the three afterlife theories, I used a KJV to avoid accusations of bias, but a prominent poster accused me anyway - I think just yesterday.

How exactly is using a King James a way to avoid an accusation of bias?

And why would you think any translation should have preferrence over another outside of personal opinion?


So you know where I am coming from, I was raised a Southern Baptist, so I got hellfire & brimstone.

I was not raised in the "church," I was a heavy metal musician enslaved to drug and alcohol addiction. I was saved in a Baptist Church and began attending Southern and Fundamental fellowships. When I finally realized there were differing views about numerous things I did not go to a translation to seek out the truth, I went to all of Scripture and as best as I could I tried to understand the original languages and cultures and everything that had an impact on what was given us in Scripture.

I no longer have doubts concerning Eternal Security, and I no longer have doubts about the opposite of Eternal Salvation, everlasting punishment.

Eternal Security is by far a tougher dispute to resolve than everlasting judgment. Everlasting judgment is pretty basic.

Later, I was an atheist for several years.

Sorry to hear that.

While never an atheist—I have always been a skeptic.

Still am.

Later, I was a member of the SDA church, which stressed annihilation.

And do you embrace annihilation? Did you? Do you still ride the fence? Seems I remember someone saying they are sympathetic to annihilation or something along those lines, but I am not sure if that was you or not.

What we can say is that it is impossible to entertain annihilation and universal salvation at the same time. Someone is clearly in error.

Who is it?


Continued...
 
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[Previous post continued]

Paul used the word “aionios” eighteen [18] times. It is correctly translated “eternal/everlasting” 16 times and world only 2 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines/describes “aionios” as eternal.
[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with "death." “A finite age life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)," a finite period, cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​
In Rom 1:20, above, Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aionios” synonymous with “aidios.” In this verse, by definition, “aionios” means eternal, everlasting etc.
[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​
In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” God is not going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an indeterminate age. The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]​
In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite age, God cannot be “immortal” and exist only for a finite age at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.​
In this verse Paul parallels “aionios life” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite age,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.​
In this verse Paul parallels “aion” and “aionios” with “immortal.” “Aion”/”aionios” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite age and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion”/”aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite ‘age’ life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios/ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​
In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite age” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​
In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”
[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​
In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite age” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “unto eternities of eternities.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή/ ou mé has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

● The combinations with οὐ μή/ou mé also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή/ ou mé (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165
 
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P1LGR1M

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Later, I almost stumbled over UR, and rejected it a time or two, until I did that read-thru of the KJV.

Or proof texted yourself into believing it?

Would you even admit that such a thing could happen to you?

Do you really deny that when I show the proof texts to be out of context that they are in fact being used out of context?


Here is just one of the posts that responded to what you are again presenting as something that hasn't been addressed:



16. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not to destroy them or send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.

Sorry, no:


Isaiah 1:16-18
King James Version

16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.



As mentioned before, the use of Old Testament Proof texts, especially when they are yanked out of context—doesn't help the universal salvation folk at all.

Here they appeal to God commanding men to basically keep the Law.

Now, how exactly can sins be white as snow and wool?

If you say anything but faith in Jesus Christ then you have proven yourself to be a member of some religion and not a member of the Body of Christ. Remission of sins is only possible through faith in Christ.


19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.



In view is physical death. See Ezekiel 36:22-27 to see the salvation of the Lord. This has an eternal context and that is what is in view: eternal destiny.


Jeremiah 3:12
King James Version

12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the Lord; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever.



Did they repent? Will He keep His anger forever on those who do not?


John 8:41-44
King James Version

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.



Next proof text:


Habakkuk 1:12
King James Version

12 Art thou not from everlasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.



Again, a temporal context, and the "them" would be the Chaldeans, that God raised up for the purpose of temporal judgment and correction. This does not speak of eternal judgment.


Next proof text:


Philippians 3:17-21
King James Version

17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.



Not sure how they go from the end of the enemies of Christ being destruction to they are included in God subduing all things to Himself.

In their doctrine, they make the enemies of Christ candidates for Eternal Life.

Once again a proof text yanked out of its context.

Next proof text:


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



Seems the enemies of Christ don't have a lot of hope to be found here either.

Note in verse 28 that in view is a contrast of those who rejected God's will under the Law and those who reject God's will in this current Age.

Again, there will be differing degrees of punishment in Hell, and those who reject Christ, His Covenant, His Sacrifice, and the ministry of the Comforter, the Spirit of Grace—will be held more accountable and receive sorer punishment.

I'm not happy about it, and like God, I would want all to come to repentance, but that is not what Scripture teaches.

Not a single solitary proof text provided so far supports universal salvation. It could be argued that this is just my opinion, but come on people. If those rejecting Christ are going to receive sorer punishment—just how exactly do you work restoration in there?


Continued...


Your proof texts have been addressed but you diid not bother to respond to that address.

Why not?

Can you show how your proofs and proof-texting are not out of context and why my own presentation as to why they are can be shown to be erroneous conclusion?


Continued...
 
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