The decline of hell doctrine and church attendance

[P1LGR1M]

This was a generation where the church forsook the assembly,

Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. It is a direct warning from an inspired Writer of Scripture (hence from God Himself):


Hebrews 10:25-29
King James Version

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Those who forsake the assembling of the brethren are they which rejected God's will. They rejected Christ, His Covenant, His Sacrifice, and the God the Spirit of Grace Himself.

Are you trying to rethink a very simple passage from Scripture? For what reason?

Are you not a member of a local assembly?

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those forsaken did not know they were subconsciously coerced until being forced to stay away.

They weren't forsaken, they were the ones who forsook:


Hebrews 10:25
King James Version

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


And the reason why they forsook is that they did not believe:


Hebrews 10:38-39
King James Version

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


To forsake the assembling of the brethren is to draw back unto perdition.

Those that do not forsake the assembling of the brethren are those who believe unto salvation.


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those forsaken did not know they were subconsciously coerced until being forced to stay away.

So an inspired Writer of Scripture and God Himself are warning men not to forsake the assembly of the brethren while at the same time trying to subconsciously coerce men they had forsaken?

I would request that you show in the passage where you derive this teaching.


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This was a generation where the church forsook the assembly, those forsaken did not know they were subconsciously coerced until being forced to stay away. As time passed, they realized, they did not like the person that they became in contact with church.

Oh, so one can forsake the assembling of the brethren if they don't like the person they became in contact with?

This is the first generation of the Church.

And the church, the Body of Christ—forsook the assembling of themselves together?

The first generation of the church was subconsciously coerced?

Again, please present the Scripture that teaches this.


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They did not forsake the church, the church forsook them.

That isn't what you just said, but it isn't surprising your doctrine stumbles all over itself.

That's what happens when doctrine has no basis in Scripture.

Now, where is the Scripture that shows the Church forsook those who forsook the assembling of the brethren.

The Writer states a warning not to do this, and you are saying that he is responsible?


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May God be true and every man a liar, you are but a man, and a liar.

I am a liar because I can see a very clear teaching in Scripture?

And see through false teachings that are obviously in conflict with Scripture?

Was God not true when He said...


Hebrews 10:25
King James Version

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


...?


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Speaking with such certainty and no spiritual authority to back it up,

I do have the authority to back it up:


Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


The teachings of Christ.

This is not subconscious coercion it is a direct statement of Christ to men that they are to fear God because He has, unlike men that may kill the body, the power to cast into Hell.

And after He has cast into Hell He has the power to destroy the body and the soul.

You do not recognize that authority because you do not recognize the authority of Scripture.

Warning men of Everlasting Punishment is not my idea, it is the Lord's and the Apostles' teaching.


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there are many people like this who base their rightness on the amount of decibels their voice can carry.

Not sure how decibels are relevant to a typewritten discussion.

Those who feel frightened by the teachings of Hell should understand there is a reason for that fear: that is the result Christ wants when it comes to Everlasting Judgment.


Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


The Lord doesn't say "Don't worry about those who kill the body, but give careful consideration to...?


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But this is not Sparta, pilgrim, this is the kingdom of God.

And what does the Lord say about the Kingdom of God?


Revelation 22:18-19
King James Version

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


What does one having his part taken out of the Book of Life mean?


Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Another warning from God.

No subconscious coercion necessary, just the obedience of those who hear.

It is clear there will be those who will not make it into the Kingdom of God:


Revelation 21:8
King James Version

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


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Blessed be the peacemakers.

I agree. So how is peace made?


Romans 10:13-15
King James Version

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


However...


16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


And the fate of those who obey not the Gospel?


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
King James Version

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Eternal Separation is the fate of those who obey not the Gospel. And the reason why those who reject the New Covenant will be held to a more severe judgment than those who reject the Covenant of Law is due to the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel, and that those who reject Christ, His Covenant, His Sacrifice, and the Spirit of Grace are rejecting God's direct ministry to their hearts.

That is how it works. It is God ministering salvation to men, not men.

So to ascribe a failure for believing to the saving of the soul to men is error.

To say the first generation of the church forsook itself is error.

To say that the teachings of Christ and the Apostles are fear tactics is error.


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Seem mighty sure what Satan was or wasn't interested in there,

I do. It's pretty easy to see.

but you're a human, so whaddaya know?

I know that God wants men to fear Him:


Job 1:8
And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?


Psalm 36:1-3
King James Version

1 The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.

2 For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.

3 The words of his mouth are iniquity and deceit: he hath left off to be wise, and to do good.


As for fear in the assembly...


Psalm 89:7
God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.


If one has no fear of God it would seem to me that one simply has no appreciation for Who He is.


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I do know that God despises those who cause discord among the brethren the most among the list of other things God hates in the proverbs.

We can go to the New Testament to see what God hates also:


2 Peter 2
King James Version

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


How did God feel about the false prophets of the Old Testament? Were those poor souls victims of fear tactics used by the Prophets? Did God or the Prophets forsake them, and were they were subconsciously coerced?


2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.


It seems to me that calling the teachings of Christ satanic doctrine is speaking evil of the Way of Truth.

Calling His teachings "primal scream therapy" is speaking evil of the Way of Truth.


3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.


We cannot substitute damnation with salvation.


4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;


God literally put men to death for their sin. For this reason, men should fear Him that hath power, after He has killed, to destroy both soul (person) and body in Hell.

The demons weren't annihilated but held in chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgment. We see this with men as well, because both demons and the ungodly will end up in the same place (Matthew 25:41).


7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)


Only God can deliver men from judgment.


9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:


But it should be made clear that the unjust have a reservation on the Day of Judgment.

Peter isn't coercing anyone. In fact, Peter cannot change the hearts of men.

But the Word of God can.

And does.


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Impersonating christians and telling a story that so close to the truth that people buy it, sounds like something the father of lies might try.

That is exactly what he does.

He tries to use Scripture out of context to support his agenda.

That began in the Garden, and we have no reason to think he and his demons aren't doing the same thing today.

But he didn't take credit for the teachings of Christ, so when people ascribe Christ's teachings to Satan we see the problem immediately.


Matthew 12:24-34
King James Version

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.


Universal salvation forgets that there is sin that will not be forgiven.

Here is everlasting Damnation, Separation, and Judgment:


32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


Is Christ trying to use fear tactics?

No, He is simply presenting truth.

And the truth that universal salvation tries to bury is that God will not forgive the Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost in this world or the one to come.

No need to try to impose another meaning in it, the phrasing makes it clear, just as this does:


Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


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If this was done slowly over the centuries, with minor variations here and there - then the current plight of Christendom (divided and fallen) might just make sense.

We don't have to "make sense" of what is right before our eyes: false doctrine has crept into Modern Christendom just as it crept into the First Century Church.

And what was the answer then? Scripture, and sound teaching.

What is the answer now? Scripture, and sound teaching.


Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.


Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


1 Timothy 1:10
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


1 Timothy 4:6
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.


1 Timothy 4:13
Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.


1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.


Quite a few more I could post but this should suffice to show that Doctrine is important to the Body of Christ.

Paul wrote...

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;


...which shows sound doctrine is necessary and contrasted with the doctrine of those who heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.

Peter wrote...

2 Peter 3:14-16
King James Version

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


...that there are those who are unlearned and unstable who wrest the Scriptures unto their own destruction.

When we see clear teachings of Christ called the doctrine of Satan we have to wonder how it is that the people that say these things do not see the example given us in Scripture by Christ and the Apostles.


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The scripture says that we have boldness on the day of judgment because love is made mature or perfect in us, no other reason is given.

No other reason because this is the only reason you are aware of?

How about the very indwelling of Christ?


Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


How about the fact that we have passed from death to life and from condemnation to no condemnation?


John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


How about the fact that though our works will be judged—we will still be saved?


1 Corinthians 3:11-15
King James Version

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


How about the simple fact that we are eagerly awaiting HIs Coming?


Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Sorry, but this...

The scripture says that we have boldness on the day of judgment because love is made mature or perfect in us, no other reason is given.

...is in error.

We have been given many reasons to be confident about our judgment, and as I said before, the first and foremost reason is that our eternal destinies are bound with Christ because He has taken the penalty for sin that we owed upon Himself.


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It is also written:

My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 1 Corinthians 4:4

So it is not wise to have absolute confidence for any other reason than love being made perfect in you, a love without fear.

You really need to learn to distinguish between an eternal context and a temporal context, and—to stop using verses out of context to justify yourself:


1 Corinthians 4
King James Version

1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.


Paul had no doubts about his eternal destiny. Most who are familiar with New Testament teaching know this.

And most are able to distinguish between Paul speaking about his temporal situation as opposed to his salvation in Christ.


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Since a clear conscience does not make you innocent, such confidence is false.

On the contrary:


Hebrews 9:11-15
King James Version

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Having received the Promise of Eternal Inheritance is just one more reason why my conscience has been purged.

Because I understand that what I do here in the temporal arena has no impact on the Work of Christ and that despite what I do in this temporal arena He has saved me anyway.

Yes, we can have confidence about the judgment of God, knowing that our sin has been judged in the Person of Christ and that those who reject the Gospel will undergo Everlasting Punishment.

That is the reason why I try to help people understand that Christ's teaching is not the doctrine of Satan, it is a warning from God Himself.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I suppose that depends on who you ask.

Saint Steven said: ↑
FYI
There are three biblical positions on the final judgment.
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) Christian Universalism

I agree, so let's ask Jesus:

Luke 12:10
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.


What happens to those who blaspheme against the Holy Ghost?

And I will say that I view the Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost as a rejection of God's ministry towards men for the purpose of revealing truth. In this instance Christ's power is ascribed to Satan (as His teachings have been in this thread), but ultimately it is rejecting God's ministry.

So what happens to those who are not forgiven?


God bless.

 

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The quick answer is any Bible containing the word "hell."

"Hell" and "infernum" were perfectly good words at one time, but they got loaded with theology. "Hell" meant hidden and covered...therefore unknown. "Infernum" meant under, as in, under the grass...and nothing like our modern word "inferno."

It's still a good word: most people understand the eternal damnation of those who do not believe to be in a place we call Hell.

Because people understand the concept associated with the word it makes a good word to translate the word Gehenna (and I use the transliteration Gehenna because that is what people are usually familiar with, so it makes sense to use words people are familiar with).

But, if it is desired to have a transliteration or even the original word (such as in the case of Emmanuel, which is forced due to the context) we still have a need as English-speaking people to be able to use terms we are familiar with.

When most people hear or see "Hell" they don't think of Norse mythology, they think of the concept taught in Scripture.


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I took a good look at how the Hebrew word "sheol" was translated in the KJV. About half the time, it was rendered as "grave" or "pit."

And I would agree that in some cases it would be better to simply put the word sheol in there, or, add a footnote:

Genesis 37:35
New English Translation

35 All his sons and daughters stood by[a] him to console him, but he refused to be consoled. “No,” he said, “I will go to the grave mourning my son.” So Joseph’s[c] father wept for him.
Read full chapter
Footnotes

Genesis 37:35 tn Heb “arose, stood”; which here suggests that they stood by him in his time of grief.
Genesis 37:35 tn Heb “and he said, ‘Indeed I will go down to my son mourning to Sheol.’” Sheol was viewed as the place where departed spirits went after death.
Genesis 37:35 tn Heb “his”; the referent (Joseph) has been specified in the translation for clarity.


The fact remains that most Bible Students do not get confused because of "bad translation.

You did not stop at a translation, you looked at the original word. That is how we understand Scripture. Not from the translation only, that is just a starting point for every student that wants to uderstand Scripture better.

And these so-called "bad translations" do not confuse people who study all of the relevant passages concerning Everlasting Punishment. Because it is from the context in which the words are used that give us the meaning. The Bible often defines itself in the commentary it gives us.

About half the time it got turned into "hell."

Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Is God speaking about a physical grave here?

No, if that were the case then we would likely be reading the word qᵊḇûrâ, wouldn't we?

But because sheol is used, shouldn't that be a clue that we need to understand this as something other than a physical grave?

The following verse is commentary:


Deu 32:24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.

The preceding verses are commentary:


Deuteronomy 32:17-22
King James Version

17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

19 And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.


The concept we understand as "Hell" seems fitting in this context.

What word would you use? What would make it a better translation?


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