The decline of hell doctrine and church attendance

P1LGR1M said:

Doctrine of Hell as taught by Jesus Christ

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so we are both talking about the same please give me a thumb nail sketch of the your understanding of the doctrine of hell

Lazarus Short said:

Funny! I wonder what the real estate listing would look like, and if the realtor for hell would try to describe it as some sort of "ranch." "Fiery Ranch?"

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Yes, apparently the worms do not die there so they get so big, they are herded as livestock.

Saint Steven said:

Location, location, location!
This charmer is a hot deal.
Close to everything.
Many models to choose from.
Very enticing financing options.
Must see!

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That's great.

Michael Collum said:

I believe from experience that most people who inhabit churches get their beliefs from the various pastors they've heard over the years, and personal experience.

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I was more curious about whether you agreed with this statement:

Original Happy Camper said:

no they were worshipping a lie (hell doctrine) from satan IMHO

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So I'll ask again: do you agree that the Doctrine of Hell is a lie from Satan?

Michael Collum said:

It's not necessarily a reflection on the actual teaching of hell in the bible.

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This...

Michael Collum said:

If you think about it creatively, it wasn't much different than primal scream therapy.

However, once the rage subsided, all interest was lost.

I recall someone that really loved that hell preaching it "got him going" so to speak, all fired up for the week.

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...seems to be a definite statement about the Doctrine of Hell.

One has to have rage to "have an interest" in the Doctrine of Hell? And once one loses that rage their interest in the Doctrine of Hell will be lost?

The Doctrine of Hell is not founded on the experience of people, it is derived directly from the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, so a charge that Doctrine of Hell is satanic doctrine is something that should have a little more behind it than individual experience and creative thinking, don't you think?


God bless.

David's Harp said:

What do you mean by purge?

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"Church" attendance has taken a beating in the last two years, and many people that used to be regular in attendance are not regular anymore. From this perspective the "purge" has weeded out a large number of people who were "playing church."

David's Harp said:

That a lot of the older church-going generation have passed away due to Covid?

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I am not convinced this is actually true: manipulation of data has created the fear that Covid is responsible for all of these deaths (and I do think the original strain was responsible for many deaths), but that doesn't mean these reports are true.

Covid has been manipulated to create fear and used as a means to govern people. That hasn't kept a minority of people from attending their local fellowship. Our own fellowship suffered a dramatic drop in attendance in the elderly but there are still those who attend.

David's Harp said:

Or that because people couldn't go to church they sought out something else?

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This is true also: a lot of people have opted to stay at home.

Again, I don't see Covid as something that has kept people who wanted to go from going. This is more a concern for the elderly who have underlying issues.

And let me be clear, I don't take the perspective that "God is purging the church," though I don't deny that this might be a possibility. But I do know that God has allowed this virus to become widespread and that it has had a toll on the attendance of a lot of fellowships.

David's Harp said:

[EDIT] Having thought about it a little more, it's probably a combination of both...

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I would agree. I see it as having given some people an excuse not to go.

I am currently quarantined with Covid (did a self-test and I have not gone to the doctor) and it hasn't been bad. I've had worse colds. My wife and I picked it up at a family reunion, and I admit it, we dropped our guard and common-sense precaution. For us it isn't a big deal. For my wife's elderly cousin's husband, who has a hernia (and was scheduled for surgery) the coughing is a big deal.

But bringing this back around to the OP, where is the data that supports that "a decline in hell," or in other words, a decline in the Doctrine of Hell—is a valid position?

Where is data to support that the Church hasn't been affected in regards to "power and influence" in the U.S.?

I don't see it as coincidence that the true power and influence of the Body of Christ has waned in light of the spread of doctrinal positions founded in Liberal Theologies.

And it is astounding that such doctrines maintain their position and gain popularity when we look at the basis for their doctrine.

We see a lot of youtube videos posted to support it. We see false arguments such as the one in the OP presented. We see "creative thinking." We see rationalization and experience offered in the place of sound reasoning.

Do I think there has been a purge? I do.

Did God do it? I don't know. It's very possible.

Do I think the U.S. has been affected as people have rejected a fear of God? Absolutely.

Do I think the OP is an offering of opinion that has no basis in reality? Absolutely.

So I'll wait and see if the OP can back up his assertions with something more than trying to popularize a favorite teacher. It seems there is more interest in making Mr. Taylor famous than an honest discussion about the Doctrine of Hell.


God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

I was more curious about whether you agreed with this statement:



So I'll ask again: do you agree that the Doctrine of Hell is a lie from Satan?




This...



...seems to be a definite statement about the Doctrine of Hell.

One has to have rage to "have an interest" in the Doctrine of Hell? And once one loses that rage their interest in the Doctrine of Hell will be lost?

The Doctrine of Hell is not founded on the experience of people, it is derived directly from the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, so a charge that Doctrine of Hell is satanic doctrine is something that should have a little more behind it than individual experience and creative thinking, don't you think?


God bless.

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Sorry to inform you, but the generation that remembers being yelled at and afraid of going to hell was a carnal one, based on emotions. This carnal order has been replaced with a different carnal order minus "the scary movie experience" - there is no "the doctrine of hell" there are at least three popular doctrines of hell in the bible.

Claiming something is biblical, doesn't actually make it biblical.

Saint Steven said:

FYI
There are three biblical positions on the final judgment.
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) Christian Universalism

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And only one of these positions are correct.

Here is Christ's statement:

Matthew 25
King James Version

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.


12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.


29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


No commentary needed. Three teachings all saying the same thing: There is a different judgment for those known of Christ and those not known. A different judgment for the Sheep (believers) and Goats (unbelievers)—one of everlasting fire and punishment, and one of Eternal Life.

This knocks...

Saint Steven said:

FYI
There are three biblical positions on the final judgment.
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Dismissed—Ultimate Redemption (UR) Christian Universalism

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...number three off your list.

Number Two is dismissed as well by, again, the teachings of Christ:


Matthew 22
King James Version

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


So we can take the doctrinal position that there is no resurrection off the table because Christ taught that there is a resurrection.

Now we see what He taught about the Resurrection of the Dead:


John 5:28-29
King James Version

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Christ is pretty consistent in His teaching, and I'll take what He said at His Word.

So we can take number two off the list as well:

Saint Steven said:

FYI
There are three biblical positions on the final judgment.
1) Damnationism
2) Dismissed—Annihilationism
3) Dismissed—Ultimate Redemption (UR) Christian Universalism

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And to set the record straight, "Damnationism" is a term designed to play upon people's emotions, and to falsely cast those that recognize Christ and the Apostle's teachings concerning the Doctrine of Hell in Scripture as people with no concern for the lost.

So it should read 1) The Doctrine of Hell.

The Two Resurrections are an Old Testament teaching expanded by Christ and the Apostles. Numerous people approached Christ with knowledge of the Resurrection of the Dead. Some were concerned how it was they might attain to the resurrection by which they might receive eternal life. A few examples of the people's understanding of the resurrection of the dead would seen in the following passages:


John 11:24-26
King James Version

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Not "all men will never die," but "...he that believeth on me."

Martha was aware of the resurrection of the dead.


Luke 10:25
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Luke 18:18
And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

These men were aware that there was a resurrection, and that eternal life was not presumed.


Daniel 12
King James Version

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


And the Apostle's consistently taught how one could be saved:


Acts 16:29-31
King James Version

29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


Men are commanded to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. Universal salvation denies that. Universal salvation denies the teaching of Christ:


John 5:28-29
King James Version

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


So, while there may be three teachings, only one of them is correct, and only one of them is consistent with the teaching of Christ and the Apostles.


God bless.

Michael Collum said:

Sorry to inform you, but the generation that remembers being yelled at and afraid of going to hell was a carnal one, based on emotions.

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You mean the generation Christ said this to...

Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


...?

And this...


Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


...?

So you reject Christ's warning that you should fear God because He has the power to cast people into Hell after He has killed them?

Michael Collum said:

This carnal order has been replaced with a different carnal order minus "the scary movie experience"

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Christ's teaching is a carnal order?

Michael Collum said:

- there is no "the doctrine of hell" there are at least three popular doctrines of hell in the bible.

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And even more popular doctrines of Who Christ is.

So legitimacy of doctrine is based on popularity?

So if you had the data that supported that Everlasting Punishment in Hell is "the most popular" you would embrace that teaching?

Michael Collum said:

Claiming something is biblical, doesn't actually make it biblical.

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I agree, that's why those who teach what Christ and the Apostles taught, that there will be two judgments among two peoples, lost and saved—are able to present a Biblical presentation of their Doctrine and those who teach annihilation and universal salvation rely on youtube videos and creative thinking.

This is why those who accept Christ's teaching can address the proof texts of universal salvation and annihilation and show why their proof texts are out of context.

So in this post, you call Christ's teaching carnal, and here...

Michael Collum said:

If you think about it creatively, it wasn't much different than primal scream therapy.

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...you liken it to "primal scream therapy."

You seem to be agreeing with...

Original Happy Camper said:

no they were worshipping a lie (hell doctrine) from satan IMHO

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...the assertion that those who teach the Doctrine of Hell are worshipping a lie from Satan.

So men should disregard Christ's teaching...


Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


...?

Men no longer have to fear God?

Because there is no Hell, it is a carnal doctrine, and a doctrine of Satan?


God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

You mean the generation Christ said this to...

Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


...?

And this...


Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


...?

So you reject Christ's warning that you should fear God because He has the power to cast people into Hell after He has killed them?




Christ's teaching is a carnal order?




And even more popular doctrines of Who Christ is.

So legitimacy of doctrine is based on popularity?

So if you had the data that supported that Everlasting Punishment in Hell is "the most popular" you would embrace that teaching?




I agree, that's why those who teach what Christ and the Apostles taught, that there will be two judgments among two peoples, lost and saved—are able to present a Biblical presentation of their Doctrine and those who teach annihilation and universal salvation rely on youtube videos and creative thinking.

This is why those who accept Christ's teaching can address the proof texts of universal salvation and annihilation and show why their proof texts are out of context.

So in this post, you call Christ's teaching carnal, and here...



...you liken it to "primal scream therapy."

You seem to be agreeing with...



...the assertion that those who teach the Doctrine of Hell are worshipping a lie from Satan.

So men should disregard Christ's teaching...


Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


...?

Men no longer have to fear God?

Because there is no Hell, it is a carnal doctrine, and a doctrine of Satan?


God bless.

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The following come to mind after reading your post.

The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” (Romans 8:15)

And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. (1 John 4:16-18)

Michael Collum said:

That has more to do with people continuing to attend out of social pressure.

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You mean the "social pressure" of the satanic doctrine of the primal scream therapy?

Michael Collum said:

When the pandemic restrictions occurred, this caused a pause in all forced socializing throughout society.

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Not really. As was noted by someone there were fellowships that held parking lot services.

One of the ones we attended had people honk if they felt like an amen was in order.

Michael Collum said:

When the restrictions were lifted, those who didn't want to be going in the first place, simply stopped attending.

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And that's the point.

A "purge," so to speak.


God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

You mean the "social pressure" of the satanic doctrine of the primal scream therapy?



Not really. As was noted by someone there were fellowships that held parking lot services.

One of the ones we attended had people honk if they felt like an amen was in order.




And that's the point.

A "purge," so to speak.


God bless.

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This is more related to the revelation exhortation to strengthen that which is weak and is ready to die. This word did go out, but the church didn't listen to those who heard it, so when the forced socializing stopped, those with no roots, discontinued attending church.

It's not a purge, its a result of a lack of work.

Original Happy Camper said:

so we are both talking about the same please give me a thumb nail sketch of the your understanding of the doctrine of hell

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There is only one understanding of the Doctrine of Hell, and that is the one that is derived from Scripture.

Contrasted with Hades (the New Testament equivalent of Sheol), the place of the dead (divided between the Just and the Unjust), Gehenna Hell is the Lake of Fire, created for Satan and his demons, where those not known of Christ will be cast in alive (but lacking the Life of Christ/Eternal Life) and will forever be in torment:

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

It should be kept in mind that Matthew 25 has a first application to the Return of Christ to establish the Millennial Kingdom, and that the Sheep and Goat judgment determine who lives physically to enter into that Kingdom. Those who are Goats, the unrighteous (unjust) not known of Christ will go into everlasting punishment:


Matthew 25:46
King James Version

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


That their punishment at that time begins in Hades doesn't change the fact that their eternal separation from God is everlasting.

Only those that are born again will enter into the Millennial Kingdom (John 3:3-5).

Just as the Rich Man was in torment in Hades...


Luke 16:23-24
King James Version

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


...even so those not known of God and that obey not the Gospel will go into everlasting torment, as will all who reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ:


Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:15
King James Version

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


And what does Christ teach as a means of escaping Everlasting Separation from God?


John 3:14-18
King James Version

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Were the Hebrew Scriptures enough to keep men from Hell?


Luke 16:27-31
King James Version

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


As the Writer of Hebrews states, there are those who are ignorant of the First Principles of the Doctrine of Christ, and need to be taught again those First Principles (Hebrews 5:10-Hebrews 6:1):


Luke 24:25-27
King James Version

25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

God has given the means, in every Age, to be saved from the separation we are all born into. He is not willing that men should perish, thus He is patient with men, giving them opportunity to come into obedience with His will.

That there will be those who will not receive remission of sins is evident also in Christ's teaching:


Mark 3:28-29
King James Version

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.


Exactly how many times is it necessary for Christ to teach Eternal Punishment, Eternal Damnation, and Eternal Separation—before this very clear teaching is acknowledged by men?

And what shall we say when His teaching is ascribed to Satan?

We say the same thing we always say:


Acts 16:29-31
King James Version

29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


So what happens to those who reject the teaching of Christ and the Apostles?


Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


No amount of creative thinking, rethinking, rationalization, or psycho-babble will change what Christ has taught.

To call His teaching satanic and "primal scream therapy" in an attempt to negate His warning...


Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


...should be a warning to those who realize Christ's teaching cannot be negated.

Is fear a bad thing?


Acts 5:11
King James Version

11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.


Not when that fear is a result of God's power.


God bless.

However, fear does not result in confidence on the day of judgment, also noted that those who fear are not matured in love.

Michael Collum said:

The following come to mind after reading your post.

The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” (Romans 8:15)

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And...?

Truly those who have been born of God have no fear of condemnation.

How is that relevant to denying the teaching of Christ that men are to fear God Who can cast into Hell?

How is Hell denied when it is taught by Christ?

Let's back up a little from your proof text:


Romans 8:7-9
King James Version

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Those not eternally indwelt by God do not belong to God.

So how exactly is this verse relevant to your teaching?

It isn't, it is, like all universal salvation proof texts—used out of context.

Michael Collum said:

And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. (1 John 4:16-18)

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Does this cancel out Christ's warning?

You have called Christ's teaching a "carnal order..."

Michael Collum said:

Sorry to inform you, but the generation that remembers being yelled at and afraid of going to hell was a carnal one, based on emotions.

Click to expand...

Michael Collum said:

This carnal order has been replaced with a different carnal order minus "the scary movie experience" - there is no "the doctrine of hell"

Click to expand...

...?

Being afraid of going to Hell is not a carnal order in any generation, and it is not based on emotions, it is founded on Christ's Own Word:


Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


So who are people supposed to listen to? Someone who says a fear of going to Hell is a carnal order, or Christ?

Does Christ state clearly that people are to fear God Who has the power to cast into Hell after He has killed?


God bless.

Michael Collum said:

This is more related to the revelation exhortation to strengthen that which is weak and is ready to die. This word did go out, but the church didn't listen to those who heard it, so when the forced socializing stopped, those with no roots, discontinued attending church.

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Who, or what—forced people to attend fellowship?

And what does a forsaking of the assembling of the brethren suggest?


Hebrews 10:25-29
King James Version

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Michael Collum said:

It's not a purge, its a result of a lack of work.

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Whether it is a purge or not, I have already said I don't know, but I wouldn't discount it as a possibility.

While I do not teach that "going to church" or "church attendance" will save, I can say that it is usually characteristic of born-again believers to want to be in the House of the Lord to worship, praise, and fellowship with other believers.

I can also say that the Writer of Hebrews points out that forsaking the assembling of the brethren is an indication of the rejection of God's will in both the Old Testament (v.28) and the New (v.29).

I can also say that those who reject Christ, His Sacrifice, His Covenant, and the ministry of the Spirit of Grace will receive a more severe judgment than those who rejected the (Covenant of) Law.

So exactly what forced socialization are you referring to?


God bless.

Michael Collum said:

However, fear does not result in confidence on the day of judgment, also noted that those who fear are not matured in love.

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Again, you use a Scriptural Truth that applies only to those who are no longer under condemnation, but have passed from death unto life in Christ Jesus.

That does not excuse supporting the idea that the Doctrine of Hell is a satanic doctrine, nor equating it to "primal scream therapy," nor viewing Christ's direct warning to Fear God Who can cast people into Hell—where they will be destroyed, not killed—as a "carnal order."

If Christ taught men should fear God Who can cast into Hell, then it is equally reasonable to see that He is teaching that there is a Hell and that this is to be feared as well.

That is one of the reasons why men turn to Christ:


John 16:7-11
King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:


9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;


11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.


And what is the judgment of the prince of this world?


Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


These are men being cast into Everlasting Fire. The Goats have every reason to fear Hell, because that is their destiny if they refuse to obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When you were saved, was there no fear of Hell for you? Christ teaches that the Comforter will convict men of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Was this not true for you?


God bless.

Michael Collum said:

I kept seeing the phrase reality of hell, but what if there was a realtor for hell?

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Lazarus Short said:

Funny! I wonder what the real estate listing would look like, and if the realtor for hell would try to describe it as some sort of "ranch." "Fiery Ranch?"

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Michael Collum said:

Yes, apparently the worms do not die there so they get so big, they are herded as livestock.

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Is Hell being humorous something we find in youtube videos?

I have yet to see Christ or the Prophets or the Apostles viewing Hell as a laughing matter:


Isaiah 66:23-24
King James Version

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


Daniel 12:1-2
King James Version

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Mark 9:42-50
King James Version

42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.


Matthew 5:13
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.


Luke 16:22-24
King James Version

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.



Jude 11-13
King James Version

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.


I just don't see any humor in men being cast into Hell.

What is it that you base Hell being funny on?


God bless.

David's Harp said:

What I would ask though: does there have to be tangible evidence of something for it to be an actuality?

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Good question. Atheists would say yes, of course. Believing something just because the Bible teaches it is ridiculous.

According to them, they can "prove" that the Bible is filled with contradictions. They can reassure you why there is no need to believe in God or gods.

And they have some very humorous videos on youtube.

They convince people that they are a majority and that the bronze-age thinking of Bible believers can't deceive men so easily anymore, because the newer generations are just more aware of the realities of man's existence in this enlightened time.

But then, aren't these the claims of every religion?


God bless.

Lazarus Short said:

Dante, Milton and Baxter are not "tangible evidence," as their accounts of "hell" are clearly fiction. The Bible is silent on the subject except for bad translation. There is zero evidence for "hell."

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Would you mind presenting these bad translations?

God bless.

Saint Steven said:

I should add...

At a previous church we made a real point of learning the children's names. They are statistically more likely to stay in the church as young adults if they feel like part of the church community/family.

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A lot of young folk leave the "church" when they get to the age they can do what they want. In my own view, I think this is more likely to be a result of the failure of parents to meet the high standard of Christ that they try to teach young people. It is just going to happen that when young people see the perfect standard of Christ and then compare that to their parents a reasonable conclusion for many will be hypocrisy.

But I also think that as many of these youth grow up and see that the standard Christ sets is not something any parent can truly emulate they will understand these "failures" a little better.

Especially when they have kids of their own.

The important thing is to plant the seed, and I think that is the hope of most parents. It is the Word of God that is going to make the most impact in their hearts and minds, and hopefully the ultimate response is that they do not depart from it.


God bless.

Michael Collum said:

I kept seeing the phrase reality of hell, but what if there was a realtor for hell?

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There is:

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


Job 1:7-12
King James Version

7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

Lazarus Short said:

Funny! I wonder what the real estate listing would look like, and if the realtor for hell would try to describe it as some sort of "ranch." "Fiery Ranch?"

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He would describe it like this:


Matthew 4:8-9
King James Version

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.


Satan wasn't interested in teaching men to fear God and Hell, but to convince men he can offer something better.


God bless.