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The Deception of Genesis

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Uphill Battle

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I'm watching the debate rage on about YEC vs. Theistic Evolution... and the arguments on both sides of that particular fence. Once that sticks out to me is the argument that Genesis was not meant to be literally interpreted, that it's myth.

This raises the question (for ME at least) what possible motivation would the author(s) of Genesis have for making up such a myth? If the actual method of creation was the use of evolution, then why the elaborate tale? Most myth, I think we will agree, is based in SOME truth. For instance, alot of people who argue that the Flood depicted in the bible isn't factual (and I'm not looking to debate THAT in this thread.) is based of the truth of a localized flood, immortalized into myth of a more global scale.

so what basis would the creation story of Genesis have? Evolution would provide no details at all for the "myth" in the first chapters of the bible.

it leads me to believe, that if it IS myth, that one of the following would be true.

1) the authors are deliberatly being deceptive.
2) the authors dicovered crack, WAY before their time.
3) insane people wrote it.
4) God inspired them to write lies.

I'm sure there are more, and that is the point of the thread. WHY would they write such a myth? What purpose did is serve? Bear in mind, I am not talking about the serpant, the tree, and the fall. I could understand to some small degree as to why they would use allegorical pictures for that. I am refering to the account of the creation itself.

Secondarily to that, if you believe the account of creation is myth, at what point in Genesis does it switch to actual history? What do you use as your ruler/guide to decide this?

Interested in anyones input.
 

justified

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This raises the question (for ME at least) what possible motivation would the author(s) of Genesis have for making up such a myth? If the actual method of creation was the use of evolution, then why the elaborate tale? Most myth, I think we will agree, is based in SOME truth. For instance, alot of people who argue that the Flood depicted in the bible isn't factual (and I'm not looking to debate THAT in this thread.) is based of the truth of a localized flood, immortalized into myth of a more global scale.

Don't think myth, think, "not modern science." The thesis statement of the book is found in 1:1, in the beginning ELOHIM created the heavens and the earth. That is, not Marduk, not Atum or Geb or Baal -- it was the Hebrew God. It was a re-working of myth to show the superiority and sole sovereignty of the Hebrew God over all the others.

it leads me to believe, that if it IS myth, that one of the following would be true.

1) the authors are deliberatly being deceptive.
2) the authors dicovered crack, WAY before their time.
3) insane people wrote it.
4) God inspired them to write lies.
These aren't nearly enough options. You are ignoring the other myths to see how Genesis is a re-worked, inspired version! The inspiration tell us that GOD CREATED the heavens, not that this "atom went there" and that "atom went there." Before you do anything, read Genesis in Hebrew, read the Enuma Elish story, read Gilgamesh, and read the Memphite Cosmogony. Then let us talk about options.

Secondarily to that, if you believe the account of creation is myth, at what point in Genesis does it switch to actual history? What do you use as your ruler/guide to decide this?
Who says anything about history?
 
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Uphill Battle

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justified said:
Don't think myth, think, "not modern science." The thesis statement of the book is found in 1:1, in the beginning ELOHIM created the heavens and the earth. That is, not Marduk, not Atum or Geb or Baal -- it was the Hebrew God. It was a re-working of myth to show the superiority and sole sovereignty of the Hebrew God over all the others.


These aren't nearly enough options. You are ignoring the other myths to see how Genesis is a re-worked, inspired version! The inspiration tell us that GOD CREATED the heavens, not that this "atom went there" and that "atom went there." Before you do anything, read Genesis in Hebrew, read the Enuma Elish story, read Gilgamesh, and read the Memphite Cosmogony. Then let us talk about options.


Who says anything about history?

I never said it was mondern science. And I know the account does not say "this atom went there, etc..." It DOES say though, 7 days. That is part of the creation. That is the major bone of contention, isn't it? Not whether or not God did it, but how he says he did.

and I take it from your last statement, that you don't believe any of Genesis to be true, such as Joseph, Abraham, etc...
 
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Brownsy

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Can you imagine if God had have given the authors a complete account of creation- what with all the references to physics, geology, genetics and molecular biology, biochemistry and the like? Not only would no one have had a clue what was being said, but they would probably of been asking the same questions about "why" as you are now.

The way it is written allows everyone to undersatnd the important facts (ie. God created verything by his will and it was indeed very good) without confusing them with what are ultimately scientific curiousities.

Blessings to you all

:crossrc:
 
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Uphill Battle

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Brownsy said:
Can you imagine if God had have given the authors a complete account of creation- what with all the references to physics, geology, genetics and molecular biology, biochemistry and the like? Not only would no one have had a clue what was being said, but they would probably of been asking the same questions about "why" as you are now.

The way it is written allows everyone to undersatnd the important facts (ie. God created verything by his will and it was indeed very good) without confusing them with what are ultimately scientific curiousities.

Blessings to you all

:crossrc:

I think thats' a bit of a copout. what about the 7 days? Oh, God said it was 7 days, because they couldn't wrap their heads around millions of years?
 
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Jig

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I think Genesis is literal.


God made the world with age built in.

Think of Adam. God made him a man instantly already without having to go through childhood.

If a modern day scientist was there with him, they would say he did have a childhood and was actually 20 somthing years old using their 'scientific methods' to date. In reality Adam could of been merely days old and didnt have a childhood nor was he ever an infant.

Logic and reason are not always correct when dealing with God's way.
Sure God could of used evolution to create. But why would He have too? Just bcause evolution satisfies science doesn't make it true. God's ways are unfathamable....what makes you think us mere humans with limited knowledge have broken God's code of creation? It will never happen.
 
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Brownsy

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Yes very good Jig, I've read that exact same post from you before, and my question still remains, why would God build age into the earth when all it could possibly serve to do was deceive and confuse.

Just because God can do anything and that he can work in unfathomable ways, doesn't mean that everything he does has to be unfathomable.

Blessings to you all


:crossrc:
 
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Brownsy

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Uphill Battle said:
...Secondarily to that, if you believe the account of creation is myth, at what point in Genesis does it switch to actual history? What do you use as your ruler/guide to decide this?

Interested in anyones input.

Try not to think of it so much as a cleatly defined point where we everything after the point is to be taken as a literal, historical account.

For example, I believe that there was a flood and that Noah existed, but I do not believe that every aspect of the flood story is tobe taken literally(and I'm sure this will get shot down very quickly :)). On the other hand when you look at other stories in the OT, lets say the Exodus story, I have no reason to doubt that that is anything but the truth.

Blessings to you all

:crossrc:
 
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Jig

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Brownsy said:
Yes very good Jig, I've read that exact same post from you before, and my question still remains, why would God build age into the earth when all it could possibly serve to do was deceive and confuse.

Just because God can do anything and that he can work in unfathomable ways, doesn't mean that everything he does has to be unfathomable.

Blessings to you all


:crossrc:

Okay...I can't make the same point twice but you can? Big deal. I wasn't addressing you anyway. I know how you feel about all this.

And God wouldn't be deceiving us. Did God deceive Adam, by making him think women just pop out of nowhere? The only one being deceived is man through his science. Science holds a purpose, but when used to "try" and figure out how God did things...it fails.

I've seen all the evidence....why I'm I still a YEC? Oh....because I'm stupid and heardheaded right?

Think that if you must...but God says one must become a fool (in the worlds view) to be wise.
 
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shernren

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Are you interested in our input because you want to learn from it? Or because you simply want to refute it and knock our beliefs down? ;) I won't speculate further.

Anyway here's a good site that can start you off if you're actually trying to understand how Theistic Evolution works:

http://www.ualberta.ca/~dlamoure/3EvoCr.htm

Genesis is not a deception. It is an accommodation. Like when a young (say 5-year-old) child asks me, "What is the sun made of?" the first thing I would answer is that it is a great ball of fire hung in the sky. Am I lying? Not really. Although the sun isn't actually fueled by combustion, but by hydrogen fusion, it is true that the sun is a sphere, and composed of plasma, and in outer space tracing an orbital path (relative to the earth). For the young child the closest equivalent in his/her experience respectively are balls, fire and the concept of "in the sky" - hence "a great ball of fire hung in the sky". Indeed, conceptually I believe this is how most infants, and the first humans as well, perceived the sun.

Now let's look at God's communication. He has chosen a people for Himself and He desires to be their covenant God and to have them His covenant people. But for all that, they're still worshipping idols, have completely disorganized personal lives and commit all sorts of sin. So how? He presents them the Law as a model of perfect righteousness and a shadow of perfect, untainted creation as it was intended to be.

So: how did God communicate this? Well, He had to lay down ground rules. The first, most obvious relationship between God and His people is that of Creator. Next, the Redeemer. Third, the Emmanuel, God incarnate dwelling with His people. Fourth, the Provider - and this lies directly on His role as Creator, since what He creates He can distribute at will to His children. Of course there are many others, but these three are the ones we see coming through in the Torah.

So how did God communicate the nature of these relationships with His people? Well, they knew Him as the Redeemer firsthand - after all it was His plagues that freed them from Egyptian slavery.

As Emmanuel? They did not know God Incarnate in human flesh yet. The time wasn't right for that. But they did know God Incarnate in a fashion, as a Presence in the Tent of Meeting that journeyed with them wherever they went. Thus God accommodated Himself to their circumstances. To suggest that God wanted to dwell in a tent for the sake of dwelling in a tent itself is clearly ridiculous. God's taking on a tent for dwelling was a foreshadowing of the way He would, in future, take on human flesh and form for dwelling. He did not intend to communicate to them that He liked burlap sacks :p but that He wanted to be with them.

As Creator? How would God present Himself as the One who created the world? Clearly He couldn't afford to wait until they developed quantum mechanics and GR! Even today I don't think we know more than 60% of what we need to know to understand how God did it. (But I am confident, though perhaps wrongly, that what we don't know isn't significantly more than that other 40%.) Should he have waited until say 2100, when humans have finally developed quantum gravity and synthesized life (if it was not a miracle of God) and developed a massive Theory of Everything that completely explains the universe's physical workings inside out from the first second to the last, and then unveil Himself and just say "You know that massive Theory of Everything? Well guess Who thought it up." No! Because He was committed to communicating to His people at a particular point in time and space and culture, He accommodated His message to their frail understanding. Just as He didn't need Trinitarian theology to promise them the Messiah, He didn't need evolutionary or cosmological understanding to affirm His creative authority. Just as He took plain old cloth as a model of how He would Incarnate Himself and come to earth to truly be God-with-us, He took their understanding of a flat earth and the sun as a flaming ball of fire and the firmament as a concrete covering over their heads and used them as a model to demonstrate why He had created the universe, not how.
 
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Jig

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shernren said:
Are you interested in our input because you want to learn from it? Or because you simply want to refute it and knock our beliefs down? ;) I won't speculate further.

.

As if this forum of Origins was only for TE's! I'm a YEC and will back up my beliefs. It seems to me you dont agree with my point of view just as much as I disagree with yours. Could I not say it is YOU who aren't intersted in my input and just want to refute my beliefs? I have no hatred towards TE's, just concern. I'm afraid believing in such science can only end up with trouble. In theory science can clone a human. What do you think would happen if this was allowed to happen? Would that person have a soul from God? Do you believe man has the power to create too?
 
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ebia

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Brownsy said:
Yes very good Jig, I've read that exact same post from you before, and my question still remains, why would God build age into the earth when all it could possibly serve to do was deceive and confuse.
Because it's ok for God to lie through his teeth through his act of Creation, as long as every written text in his name fits a 20th century literalists idea of truth.
 
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ebia

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Uphill Battle said:
This raises the question (for ME at least) what possible motivation would the author(s) of Genesis have for making up such a myth?
To tell the story of why God created the world, and how people separate themselves from his purpose for them. To transmit a heck of a lot of theological information.

If the actual method of creation was the use of evolution, then why the elaborate tale?
Because that's how ancient peoples transmitted their important truths - by imbedding them in stories. Stories are a great way of teaching people - a teaching method we have sadly forgotten in our literalist age, but the primary tool of teaching in most oral societies.

Most myth, I think we will agree, is based in SOME truth
.
Often true, but that isn't the point of myth. Myths are written to tell truths and values that are important to the societies that wrote them.

it leads me to believe, that if it IS myth, that one of the following would be true.

1) the authors are deliberatly being deceptive.
2) the authors dicovered crack, WAY before their time.
3) insane people wrote it.
4) God inspired them to write lies.
You can believe those if you like, but none of them follow from the idea that Genesis is not literally true.

I'm sure there are more, and that is the point of the thread. WHY would they write such a myth? What purpose did is serve? Bear in mind, I am not talking about the serpant, the tree, and the fall. I could understand to some small degree as to why they would use allegorical pictures for that. I am refering to the account of the creation itself.
To tell us all sorts of stuff like:
God created the world. That he created it from nothing. That he created it through the Word (Christ). That he intended us to be stewards of that world. That the world he intends for us is good. That we are created in his image. And so on.

Secondarily to that, if you believe the account of creation is myth, at what point in Genesis does it switch to actual history? What do you use as your ruler/guide to decide this?
I very much doubt that it does switch, but gradually it becomes closer and closer to "actual history". It really doesn't matter if nothing of the entire first 5 or 6 books of the bible (or more) is "actual history".
 
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artybloke

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ebia said:
Because it's ok for God to lie through his teeth through his act of Creation, as long as every written text in his name fits a 20th century literalists idea of truth.
As Meatloaf says... You took the words right out of my mouth...

Deceiving everyone that the world is older than it really is would be a big freakin' lie. Why would you trust such a God with your salvation if He can't even tell the truth to us through His creation?
 
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Uphill Battle

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ebia said:
To tell the story of why God created the world, and how people separate themselves from his purpose for them. To transmit a heck of a lot of theological information.


Because that's how ancient peoples transmitted their important truths - by imbedding them in stories. Stories are a great way of teaching people - a teaching method we have sadly forgotten in our literalist age, but the primary tool of teaching in most oral societies.

.
Often true, but that isn't the point of myth. Myths are written to tell truths and values that are important to the societies that wrote them.


You can believe those if you like, but none of them follow from the idea that Genesis is not literally true.


To tell us all sorts of stuff like:
God created the world. That he created it from nothing. That he created it through the Word (Christ). That he intended us to be stewards of that world. That the world he intends for us is good. That we are created in his image. And so on.


I very much doubt that it does switch, but gradually it becomes closer and closer to "actual history". It really doesn't matter if nothing of the entire first 5 or 6 books of the bible (or more) is "actual history".

and the 7 days? that's just pure fabrication, right? That's the crux of the argument... you look at genesis and believe that God created the world. you look at Genesis and do NOT believe the way in which it is described. How do you pick and choose? If you're honest, is it external evidences only?

And I would think that the first 5 books of the bible do matter historically, seeing as it is the foundation of the jewish faith, which was the nation that the Saviour came from... basically put, the story line in the bible leads from that (Abraham, Isacc, et al.) up to the Christ himself. Am I also to believe that he always referenced "myth" when speaking of the Genesis account?
 
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justified

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I never said it was mondern science. And I know the account does not say "this atom went there, etc..." It DOES say though, 7 days. That is part of the creation. That is the major bone of contention, isn't it? Not whether or not God did it, but how he says he did.

and I take it from your last statement, that you don't believe any of Genesis to be true, such as Joseph, Abraham, etc...

You assume wrongly.

So is your issue on seven days? Because that's not my issue. My issue is in other things. I'm going to post here a tiny article I posted in another place on CF. See the following post.
 
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justified

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Well, I'm not going to debate the science with you all, but I can offer some insight into the historical-theological questions. It took me a good while to compile this brief study (it's long, but not as these things go) so take what you can away from it. As you read, if you should become frustrated or thinking that I'm trying to destroy faith in the biblical text, please skip down to the conclusion at the end. That is not at all my intention, as you will see!

I reject a "literal" interpretation of creation for structio-literary and historico-exegetical reasons.

1. Structural-Literary: The Genesis 1-4 narratives appear to be structured thematically rather than anything else. Chapter 1 is semitic poetry: it has rhythm when you read it in the Hebrew (which this author does) and one can easily note how things are themed. Below is a little list which I've compiled (these are adaptations of what has been known for a long time. Language is from the NIV; italics are things I will note later on:

Day 1 Light and Darkness/Day and Night (vv.3-5)
--Day 4 Stars: separate day from night and markers for seasons; sun and moon: greater to govern day; lesser to govern night. (vv.14-19)

Day 2 Creation of expanse between the waters and naming it sky -- waters above and below (vv.6-8)
--Day 5 Creatures: in water and sky; great creatures [Hebrew תנים tanniym] of sea; all creatures of sea and all birds. (vv.20-23)

Day 3 Dry Ground; naming of "gathered waters"; vegetation; (vv.9-13)
--Day 6 Creatures: on land, living beasts, etc. Humans: to rule over the creatures of the land, sea, and air. (vv.24-31).

Structural-Literary Notes:
A. It is obvious that we have a literary structure. Each day is followed by a day in which something is made to inhabit and govern that sphere. Light and darkness are made, then those things which mark/govern/rule the light and darkness are made three days later. Thus the waters and sky are made, and then on the fifth day the waters and sky have creatures inhabiting them. The third day and the sixth day are likewise paralleled by sphere and creature, culminating in man which inhabits the earth, and rules it all.

B. It's also important to see the hymnic nature of the pericope. God says that he will do something, then he does it. This is a characteristic of oral story-telling (as is the structure under "A"); finally it is similar to ancient texts which recall how the kings made a statement. That is, the king would speak, and his word was authoritative: then he would do it or it would be done. It's an ancient idiom for how authority works.

C. Just to emphasize the oral nature of the story, please review it and see how repetitive it is; moreover the refrain of ויהי ערב ויהי בקר (vayahi 'erev vyahi boqer) "and there was evening and there was morning."

D. Finally, at 2:4 we have an interesting feature which many of you already know of. All throughout chapter one, the name for God is the generic name for God, from אל ('el which means "mighty"; the basis also for Arabic Allah), 'elohim. At 2:4, suddently, the name for God is יהוה אלהים (yhvh 'elohim) "The LORD God" and is using God's proper name, Yahweh. Moreover, notice that 2:4 claims to be the account of the heavens and the earth in their creation. It is a point when no shurb had yet popped up -- no plants, and it is said that man is required to work the ground (2:5). The fact there there were no plants requires, in terms of chapter one, a pre-day-3 time-frame. Yet this, in terms of chapter two, is where man is created. I think we must be dealing with two differing accounts of creation.

E. Finally, a note on ancient cosmology. If one consults ancient east-semitic and other cosmologies, one finds that they are surprisingly similar to what we find in Genesis. I cannot prove that this, or anything else I've stated above, means anything. All that it means is what I have shown: there are facts there, and I've tried not to interpret them for you. But what you should know is that stories like the Akk-Sumerian enuma elish myth are very similar.


2. Historico-Exegetical: One has to take any piece of literature, sacred or not, within the context of its original authorship and its language. That is, a word means what a word means within that specific culture. Because we have the Hebrew bible, we can learn a lot about a word based upon its usage elsewhere. Most of the words I'm citing below are from the Genesis 1 pericope:

A. expanse between the waters: KJV "firmament of heaven." The Hebrew is רקיע (raqiya'), a word which is used elsewhere to refer to the sky ("heavens"), as it is also named here in Genesis 1:8 -- שמים (shamayim). The meaning of raqiya' is significant, and the KJV translation firmament is telling that it is something solid, hard. To my knowledge it only occurs in 15 verses, seven of which are in Genesis 1. The others are: Psalm 19:1; 150:1; Ezekiel 1:22,23,25,26; 10:1; and Daniel 12:3. In Ezekiel 1:22 the raqiya' glimmers like ice; above the expanse is the throne of God (vv. 25-26).

B. waters above and below: Literally the Hebrew reads in 1:7, and God made the expanse and he separated between the waters which were below the firmament and between the waters which were on top of the firmament -- and so it was. I am no scientist, and I'm not going to talk to you about vapor pressure: what I know is that this was a common belief in the ancient world. They did not simply believe that there were clouds above the sky (obviously we know they're in the sky, but that wasn't the ancient idea) -- they wrote that there was a sea above the heavens in which the rain and such were stored. The firmament was a dome stretched over the earth (the Egyptians pictured a woman or a falcon) upon which the stars glided and the waters were hid (hence the blueness). Finally, under the earth there was more water -- the chaos waters. More about that later.

-->The following scriptures all evidence the same idea, they have taken me a while to compile. Unfortunately they're not in english OT order; they're a composite of Hebrew order, but you can still find them useful. First I'm going to elucidate the biblical cosmology, then quote a few verses, then move on (finally): Genesis 1:1-2; 7:11; Genesis 8:2!; 49:25; Dt. 4.18; 5.8; 33:13; 2Sam 5:20=1Chron 14.11; Job 26:5; Job 37:10; Job 7:12; 38:16; Ps. 24:2; Psalm 74:13; Ps. 136:6; 148:4; Proverbs 8:29; Isaiah 44:27; Jeremiah 10:13!!=51:16; Amos 5:8; Lam. 3:54=?Jonah 2:1ff.

-->The ancient cosmology consists of the deep, the waters of chaos which, in Gen 1:1-2, were all that was of the earth. God ordered this chaos, separating and distinguishing and naming in His creation. He created a firmament to separate the waters, so that some were above the heavens (already noted as a dome) and some were below. He then gathered the land and built that, separating it from the waters, but still leaving waters under the land -- the sources of springs and streams. The sea and the "deep" continued to be a picture of chaos and disorder and at times, evil and distress throughout Hebrew writing.

-->ALL EMPHASES MINE. On the heavens being a dome covering the earth, see Jer. 10:12: But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.

-->Genesis 8:2: Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky. "Floodgates of the heavens" = "rains" -- quite a picture. Rain comes through the floodgates from the stores of the waters above the heavens (the solid FIRMament).

-->Jonah 2:5-6: he engulfing waters threatened me, the deep surrounded me; seaweed was wrapped around my head. To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in for ever. But you brought my life up from the pit, O LORD my God. This appears to be a picture of the earth held up upon the waters on columns, almost like stilts. This same idea of the earth on top of the waters is in Psalm 24:1b-2: The earth is the LORD’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; for he founded it upon the seas and established it upon the waters and also in Ps. 136:6 who spread out the earth upon the waters, His love endures for ever.

-->Waters are continually pictured as "below" us; an example is Dt. 33:13: About Joseph he said: "May the LORD bless his land with the precious dew from heaven above and with the deep waters that lie below.

-->Again, the waters above: Praise him, you highest heavens and you waters above the skies. Also, Jer. 10:13(=51:16): When he thunders, the waters in the heavens roar; he makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth. He sends lightning with the rain and brings out the wind from his storehouses.

-->In conclusion of this point, let me just remind the reader that we have similar cosmologies in both east and west semitic cultures, as well as in Egypt of all places! When we see this language in the bible, it is very similar language to that of the other ancient peoples so we have corroborating evidence about the general idea of what is meant.

C. great creatures: As noted above under day five of Gen. 1, the Hebrew word for this is תנים, tanniy[m/n]. It's a significant word for this study and has to do with some interesting points about creation. The Hebrew occurs in 28 verses and is often translated snake (such as in Exodus about Aaron's staff: 7:9,10,12). It is also translated by "dragon" in Nehemiah 2:13 by the KJV and JPS. Reversing my tactic last time, this time I'll cite pertinent verses first, then explain how I think it all fits togther:

-->Job 7:12 Am I the sea, or the monster of the deep, that you put me under guard? Notice that "sea" and tanniyn are equated as the same thing here (synonymous parallelism).

-->Psalm 74:13-14 It was you who split open the sea by your power; you broke the heads of the monster in the waters. It was you who crushed the heads of Leviathan and gave him as food to the creatures of the desert. Here the Hebrew begins emphatically with the predicate, "you who did this," referencing the defeat of the _ancient_ sea monster. Also notice well the plural, and that he was fed to creatures in the desert. These things are all important for the discussion below.

-->Isaiah 27:1 In that day, the LORD will punish with his sword, his fierce, great and powerful sword, Leviathan the gliding serpent, Leviathan the coiling serpent; he will slay the monster of the sea. Again, Leviathan is called the sea monster, a serpant, and is defeated by the LORD (Yahweh).

-->Isaiah 51:9-10 Awake, awake! Clothe yourself with strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in days gone by, as in generations of old. Was it not you who cut Rahab to pieces, who pierced that monster through? Was it not you who dried up the sea, the waters of the great deep, who made a road in the depths of the sea so that the redeemed might cross over? It is not coincidence that here Rahab, which means "storm" or "arrogance," is equated with the "monster", and then is referenced to the sea and the exit from Egypt! Rahab was a kind of code-name for Egypt applied by the Hebrews (cf. Ps. 87.4) and so the beautiful picture here is of the sea monster being killed as the Israelites cross the Reed Sea out of Egypt: the mingling of so many idioms and mixing metaphors was a wonderful ancient Hebrew poetic tactic.

-->Ezekiel 32:2(& cf. 29:1-3) Son of man, take up a lament concerning Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him: "‘You are like a lion among the nations; you are like a monster in the seas thrashing about in your streams, churning the water with your feet and muddying the streams. Both the ESV and JPS translate "dragon" instead of "monster." Interesting.

-->The description of Leviathan in Job 41:1ff, esp. 41:18-20: His snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like the rays of dawn. Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds. and v.27: Iron he treats like straw and bronze like rotten wood and v.31: He makes the depths churn like a boiling cauldron and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.

-->The Leviathan and Tanniym are not purely a biblical phenomenon. This creature is known in other ancient literatures as Tiamat or yam; the latter is the basis of the Hebrew word yam which means sea. In fact, in the literatures of Canaan and Mesopotamia, the chaos-seas are inhabited by a monster called "the sea" or "the deep" -- a personification of chaos and the deep. Whichever particular God is in charge comes along and "orders" the world by taking yam (usually a seven-headed serpent) and cutting her (always feminine, don't ask me why) in half. Half becomes the land, half becomes the chaotic seas which bear her name. In every culture the protagonist god seems to be different, and there are always little differences. In one, yam's blood is used to make man by Baal.

-->The Biblical Assertion is that it was God who defeated any primeval chaos monster. Why else would Psalm 74 be so emphatic, as if trying to show the Babylonians that it wasn't their gods but THE God, Yahweh, who has done anything.


3. Brief Conclusion:
If I might be permitted the briefest of interpretative comments (as indeed, I have kept my opinions to a minimum above), I would want to emphasize that I am in no way an athiest or an evolutionist. I am, however, aware that the Bible does not attempt to deal with things like cosmology. The Ancient concept is of a flat earth supported by columns over the deep, with the waters above which rain when the floodgates of heaven are opened. It is the defeat of chaos and the establishment of order in the universe that is the point of Genesis 1, and that point is mostly expressed in the thesis statement which sets this account against all the accounts of the rest of the ancient world: In the beginning, GOD created the heavens and the earth. Not, Baal; El, or the others. Only one, Yahweh, lord of heaven and earth, he created them by his own hand and word.
 
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justified

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seems like a LOT of song and dance to justify a TE position.
Actually, I'm not evolutionist. Like I said, that wasn't my point. I am trying to explain how I view Genesis, and why I feel a lot of people simply don't get it. But I cannot hearken to an evolutionist position because, quite frankly, I don't think science has proven evolution yet.

So get a grip, the posts I make have nothing to do with evolution!
 
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Uphill Battle

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justified said:
Actually, I'm not evolutionist. Like I said, that wasn't my point. I am trying to explain how I view Genesis, and why I feel a lot of people simply don't get it. But I cannot hearken to an evolutionist position because, quite frankly, I don't think science has proven evolution yet.

So get a grip, the posts I make have nothing to do with evolution!

alright then. shall we just call it Origins Ambiguous?
 
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