The debate on sin.

[chingchang]

I dont know...I guess I just dont see not having sex with anyone other than my spouse of the opposite gender as being forced thru 'flamming hoops'....
Id also guess that if you were a Jew under law and suddenly came under grace that youd probably understand what 'freedom' is in this new covenant....it surely isnt freedom to ignore Christs instruction....

Seems to me that youre trying to omit these ...


We KEEP HIS commandments given in the Gospels and from His chosen apostles because we love Him.
IF we love Him we wont try to get out of doing so....

I think you've missed my point. That is o.k. though...I'm still working on my written communication skills. I certainly would never advocated "trying to get out of something" Jesus has commanded us to do. You and I differ on several issues...and that is o.k. I'll just chalk-it-up as a Romans 14-thing and move-on.

Hugs Brother,
chingchang

 

[Nadiine]

I dunno...I get the feeling that the Most High God isn't into setting-up flamming hoops for us to jump through. Galatians 5:1 comes to mind after reading this thread...

(KJV) 1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

What is this 'liberty'? And...what is this 'yoke of bondage'? What is this freedom about anyway? Sometimes I wonder if Christians would be more Christ-like if we didn't have the Bible (as we know it) and instead only had selected things that Jesus said and commanded us to do. It really isn't that complicated...

John 15:12 (KJV)... This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Oh...and in case you didn't hear me (Jesus) the first time...

John 15:17 (KJV)... These things I command you, that ye love one another.

So...as we know Jesus commanded us to love God and love each other. He did not say to follow a bunch of rules. He wasn't into rules. Think of all the examples. A good one is the adultress that was to be stoned to death. They "test" Jesus...

John 8:3-11 (KJV)...
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

"As though he heard them not"...and note they were basically pestering him. He was not at all concerned about taking her to the edge of town and stoning her per OT law. Can you see this playing-out? This is just one example...but there are many where Jesus turns the law around on the Pharisees.

2 Corinthians 3:6 (KJV)...
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

What is this letter Paul speaks of? Seems to me that there is something to be understood here.

Here is what I see...having been a member of a Evangelical Christian Fundamentalist Church for over 5 years (up through last April...I departed)...and that is; there is a tendancy...an inclination toward legalism and an emphasis on the law in those "Fundie" churches and a lack of emphasis on Jesus' greatest commands. It is what I've heard some call "modern-day Phariseeism". There is plenty of condemnation to go around in those churches...but I recall what Jesus taught about that. Jesus hung out with "sinners" and ate and drank wine with them. He wasn't hanging-out with the "rule-followers". I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I don't believe we'll be judged by whether or not we followed all of the rules perfectly...or whether our theology was perfect, but rather on whether or not we loved God and our fellow man.

If this view of God makes me a "liberal Christian" then so beit...because Jesus was liberal in every sense. The Pharisees were conservative. All relative terms btw.

So...Brothers and Sisters...hang on to the liberty (that sounds liberal) that Christ bought for us with his blood!!!!

Hugs All,
chingchang

I dunno...I get the feeling that the Most High God isn't into setting-up flamming hoops for us to jump through

No? Have you ever read the OT?
God absolutely sets up standards for His people to live by; and ALL people to live by.

liberty "sounds liberal", so let's just flush moral laws down the toilet! lol


It's PAUL who taught on liberties - & Paul is the one who taught grace -
and have you even read about liberties? We aren't even free to practice
a liberty if it can cause somebody else trouble/confusion...
1 Corinthians 8:9
But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow
become a stumbling block to the weak.

The liberties often pertained to the CEREMONIAL rituals & laws that Christ fulfilled by His sacrifice - circumcision wasn't mandatory anymore as other ritualistic practices - they were free from all those works now.
LIBERTY.
They aren't license to sin, they're things Christ relieved us from and in the NT, what we can do under grace that are in "grayer" categories that COULD lead to sin or not snare us; either/or.

ie. drinking, gambling, wearing makeup, dress code, secular music,
dancing, etc. Not "theft, lying, kidnapping, abortion, premarital sex, incest, adultery, gossip, slander, hatred, murder, abuse, blasphemy, rape, etc. that are spelled out in detail.

Obeying God's moral code isn't legalism; that's one of the biggest
errors I see in this liberal worldview; anything obedient turns into
stuffy fundy/phariseeism.
Is not lying to someone or stealing from them a fundy thing?
no.

When you can prove the moral law of the OT is removed & gone,
you'll have a case and not until.
Most don't have the slightest clue how law works (even when it's
been explained several times in these types of threads) -

Show me the moral laws have been reversed. And why isn't
beastility listed in the NT anywhere; is that one ok to practice?
God's ok with it?

 

[Nadiine]

cing: John 15:17 (KJV)... These things I command you, that ye love one another.

So...as we know Jesus commanded us to love God and love each other. He did not say to follow a bunch of rules. He wasn't into rules. Think of all the examples. A good one is the adultress that was to be stoned to death. They "test" Jesus...

really?
Love is defined BY laws!
Rom 13
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Those moral laws ARE love to God and others -
they keep you from harming others thru what is evil.

If you don't rape, don't take another person's spouse, don't murder, don't steal from others, don't abuse/use/misuse someone's body, covet their things, etc., then you ARE loving them.

How do you have love MINUS moral laws that protect us all?

 

[HuntingMan]

I think you've missed my point. That is o.k. though...I'm still working on my written communication skills. I certainly would never advocated "trying to get out of something" Jesus has commanded us to do. You and I differ on several issues...and that is o.k. I'll just chalk-it-up as a Romans 14-thing and move-on.

Hugs Brother,
chingchang

Well, bear in mind that Romans 14 is about things NOT defined as 'sin' already...such as drinking wine and meats. It isnt a permission to ignore any instruction that DOES define sin or disobedience....

 

[HuntingMan]

It would seem that Paul already dealt with this 'all things are lawful' error in his letters to the Corinthians....

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
(1Co 6:12-13)

(Pro 14:12 KJV) There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
(Pro 16:25 KJV) There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

[Armistead]

really?
Love is defined BY laws!
Rom 13
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Those moral laws ARE love to God and others -
they keep you from harming others thru what is evil.

If you don't rape, don't take another person's spouse, don't murder, don't steal from others, don't abuse/use/misuse someone's body, covet their things, etc., then you ARE loving them.

How do you have love MINUS moral laws that protect us all?

And that moral law as James tells us is LOVE fulfills all the law ---WHY?
Because it "seeks no harm".

You fail to understand we obey those things that are wrong because they harm our fellow man. God's moral laws all abide in the concept of love.

Love is not defined by LAW...Law is defined by love....you got it backward.

You guys keep saying we use this to promote sin...We never say that.
We use the law of love to know what sin is..instead of abiding in legal codes of man to define sin. Any command Jesus, Paul, ect..gave us, they did so because they insure man not harming man.

I agree we should not be a stumbling block. I wouldn't drink in front of an alcoholic that would be tempted. OTT, I decide what is sin based on one principle...will my actions cause harm to another or deny one true God. If not...I feel free to act without guilt. Do I sometimes fail...sure, but I try never to harm anyone....that fulfills ALL the law.

 

[HuntingMan]

And that moral law as James tells us is LOVE fulfills all the law ---WHY?
Because it "seeks no harm".

And who defines 'harm'...you?
GOD defines it, not man.

You fail to understand we obey those things that are wrong because they harm our fellow man.

Again, who defines 'harm' ?
GODs word shows that gay sex is quite harmful as it is abomination.
Gays claim that they arent harming anyone.
Apparently what MAN thinks is harmless is quite harmful...

(Pro 14:12 KJV) There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
(Pro 16:25 KJV) There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

[Nadiine]

And that moral law as James tells us is LOVE fulfills all the law ---WHY?
Because it "seeks no harm".

It tells you that those laws encompass love - that was their whole point.
It gave protection & guidance to the people without them even realizing
that it was for their health, preservation, spiritual health and physical
wellbeing.
It was when they disobeyed that the troubles seem to come.

You fail to understand we obey those things that are wrong because they harm our fellow man. God's moral laws all abide in the concept of love.

I don't FAIL to realize that, my point is that those laws are in place
to JUDGE those who violate others.
OR when a Christian commits them, they must repent & seek to stop
committing it.

Don't turn this into legalism when that's NOT what I said or meant.
The point of me saying what I did was to prove that moral law
IS LOVE. And it stands to judge the lost and we're ALL as humans
commanded to abide by it; it was never dismantled & done away with.

& the fact that the Pharisees followed letter of law (even when it
would cause people to die if followed), proved they loved no one, but
followed law becuz of them being "rules" alone.
Laws were placed above caring for people - & since they obeyed them
so well, it caused pride and loathing of others less "holy"....

Love is not defined by LAW...Law is defined by love....you got it backward.

They are a pair - the law reflects LOVE - where God gives grace for
us not to 'be under the law' (penalty of law & what He fulfilled in
ceremonial laws: clean/unclean, sacrificing, rituals, etc.) the moral law steps in to correct when we violate it.

You guys keep saying we use this to promote sin...We never say that.
We use the law of love to know what sin is..instead of abiding in legal codes of man to define sin. Any command Jesus, Paul, ect..gave us, they did so because they insure man not harming man.

(in bold) YES -
I know full well the argument raised by Paul in Grace & Law.
But the lost ARE under the full measure of the Law however becuz they
rejected their sacrifice & covering for sin.
There are 2 ways: Grace & law. All people are either under the law of Christ - or under written Law.

I agree we should not be a stumbling block. I wouldn't drink in front of an alcoholic that would be tempted. OTT, I decide what is sin based on one principle...will my actions cause harm to another or deny one true God.

(to the red emphasis)
The problem is, you're also corrupted by that sin becuz you have a sin nature; so placing yourself as the decider of sin is a HUGE problem.
(to the bold emphasis)
& you miss one of theee biggest harms - giving people eternal security
thru Universalism. Telling the lost not to worry that they enter heaven
later on anyways -- WHEN THEY DON'T.
Jesus & several of the NT authors gave specific warnings about the
afterlife - and you're quenching the warnings by giving escape clauses.

That is the worst harm that could probly ever be done.

If not...I feel free to act without guilt. Do I sometimes fail...sure, but I try never to harm anyone....that fulfills ALL the law.

Harm.... based on your opinion of it.
I base mine on God's ENTIRE word that gives warning after warning
about separation from God.

 

[chingchang]

Nadiine,

I was starting to think what we have here is a "the glass is half full"..."no, the glass is half empty" argument...but instead I am now fully convinced that we have a fundamental misunderstanding of what God is teaching us. That said...I can't bring anything to the table that will change your understanding...because you too are fully convinced and you have been taught a specific way with a specific emphasis from an early age (per your "about me").

You said..."Since beliefs don't change reality, it's important to be open to TRUTH even if we dislike it."

Ahhh...but beliefs DO change one's reality...since reality is relative to the individual. Your reality is obviously different from mine based on your beliefs. It seems to me from your statement above that you are preaching to us that are "in error". That is...you have the "TRUTH" that we need to be open to. Have you considered that occasionally it can work the other way? Do you have nothing left to learn? I can't tell you how exciting my life is because God is continually teaching me something new via his Holy Spirit. Is that happening in your life...or are you just telling people "TRUTH"...even if they dislike it?

I'm sure we'll meet again in another thread...but for this one I retire.

Hugs Sister,
chingchang

It tells you that those laws encompass love - that was their whole point.
It gave protection & guidance to the people without them even realizing
that it was for their health, preservation, spiritual health and physical
wellbeing.
It was when they disobeyed that the troubles seem to come.


I don't FAIL to realize that, my point is that those laws are in place
to JUDGE those who violate others.
OR when a Christian commits them, they must repent & seek to stop
committing it.

Don't turn this into legalism when that's NOT what I said or meant.
The point of me saying what I did was to prove that moral law
IS LOVE. And it stands to judge the lost and we're ALL as humans
commanded to abide by it; it was never dismantled & done away with.

& the fact that the Pharisees followed letter of law (even when it
would cause people to die if followed), proved they loved no one, but
followed law becuz of them being "rules" alone.
Laws were placed above caring for people - & since they obeyed them
so well, it caused pride and loathing of others less "holy"....


They are a pair - the law reflects LOVE - where God gives grace for
us not to 'be under the law' (penalty of law & what He fulfilled in
ceremonial laws: clean/unclean, sacrificing, rituals, etc.) the moral law steps in to correct when we violate it.


(in bold) YES -
I know full well the argument raised by Paul in Grace & Law.
But the lost ARE under the full measure of the Law however becuz they
rejected their sacrifice & covering for sin.
There are 2 ways: Grace & law. All people are either under the law of Christ - or under written Law.


(to the red emphasis)
The problem is, you're also corrupted by that sin becuz you have a sin nature; so placing yourself as the decider of sin is a HUGE problem.
(to the bold emphasis)
& you miss one of theee biggest harms - giving people eternal security
thru Universalism. Telling the lost not to worry that they enter heaven
later on anyways -- WHEN THEY DON'T.
Jesus & several of the NT authors gave specific warnings about the
afterlife - and you're quenching the warnings by giving escape clauses.

That is the worst harm that could probly ever be done.


Harm.... based on your opinion of it.
I base mine on God's ENTIRE word that gives warning after warning
about separation from God.

 

[Nadiine]

Nadiine,

I was starting to think what we have here is a "the glass is half full"..."no, the glass is half empty" argument...but instead I am now fully convinced that we have a fundamental misunderstanding of what God is teaching us. That said...I can't bring anything to the table that will change your understanding...because you too are fully convinced and you have been taught a specific way with a specific emphasis from an early age (per your "about me").

You said..."Since beliefs don't change reality, it's important to be open to TRUTH even if we dislike it."


Ahhh...but beliefs DO change one's reality...since reality is relative to the individual.

I think you're misunderstanding my statement.
If you think the world is FLAT, does it make that true in Reality for you?
Does the earth in fact, "go flat" for you?
No, the earth WILL stay round contrary to your all-wise opinion.

False teachings regarding God's words & truths dont' MAKE THEM TRUE
just becuz you believe them; sincerety doesn't make truth.
Somebody who claims God doesn't exist certainly isn't changing reality
any - as if it makes God nonexistant all of a sudden.
Or as if God doesn't exist "for them" but He does exist for others....
Someone's right & someone's wrong; both are not true.

I didn't say reality cannot change - but opinions & beliefs don't make
anything true realistically.

Your reality is obviously different from mine based on your beliefs.

Reality is what it is based on FACTS/what is true.

Now maybe you mean that the way I live is based on what I believe -
like if I believe adultery is sin, I won't live that way - & if you think fornication's fine, you'll live that way -
so our 'realities' are different? Not sure I grasp what you mean here.

It seems to me from your statement above that you are preaching to us that are "in error". That is...you have the "TRUTH" that we need to be open to. Have you considered that occasionally it can work the other way?

Yes I have considered that - I consider it every single day.

But UNTIL you base your information ON GOD'S TEACHINGS, you will
not get me to change them.
In other words, present a proper position that aligns with what is
so clearly written in scripture - without contradicting it everywhere else, and you'll have more consideration. but not until.

Do you have nothing left to learn? I can't tell you how exciting my life is because God is continually teaching me something new via his Holy Spirit. Is that happening in your life...or are you just telling people "TRUTH"...even if they dislike it?

Well no offense, but alot of people make these claims as to the Spirit
leading them - while they promote sin & false teaching everywhere else.
Or the fruit is rotten --
Many times people mistake their own leading & learning for the Spirit's. It's not my call to make - but it just doesn't prove anything except
that you believe that.
(the same would be true if I made this same claim).